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Transcript

...

Hi, everyone. Welcome to wider worldview of podcast.

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explore the part of travel and how it contains the world.

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I'm your host, Magazine. I am actually coming

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you from a coat closet right now because I

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have no other place to dampen sound.

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I'm a marketer by day, passionate travel photographer and journalist, and I can fit it in.

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and a life runner always, and I believe the power of travel can make the world ever

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better place.

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join us for conversations with entrepreneurs, educators and

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floors and get, inspired to tap in the travel and get outside your quote unquote comfort known.

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for our thirteenth episode today, I am so excited to introduce

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you to fellow Fireside, Doctor Laura De, just general badass

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education industry professional,

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principal and founder workplace optimization come be fortified associates.

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part time professor at Boston University.

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strategies, podcast or comedian

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over work.

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seriously, the list goes on. She spent

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and pain. Yes. All of it.

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Thank you.

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you are a multi passionate multi hyphen for sure.

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Mhmm.

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you you spent nearly ten years at Mount College

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Yep.

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a majority of that is the Vp of student of affairs.

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before that, you are the assistant in the students for other life. So

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and before that, you were in a similar role at Boston University.

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Yep.

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Yes.

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where you're now an adjective professor. So it's safe to say you have a lot of expertise in higher ed.

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Yes.

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Is that fair?

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Woo hoo.

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thirty years in higher ed. Absolutely. So in a

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Yeah. In addition to the ...I worked at five different schools and

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colleges and universities, and I consider myself

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pretty broad broad. If you know what I'm talking about, so I'm pretty happy about it.

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Absolutely. Well, we are super excited to have you here talking to us.

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today about travel and it's place in higher ed. A quick

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Wonderful.

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Yeah. I'm I'm pumped. A wicked

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the note a quick note before who

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start if anybody has any questions throughout

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you can absolutely use

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the chat function down in your lower right hand corner, you just hit react, then you

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you choose them emoji, it'll kind of prompt you to enter some text you can answer.

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can enter questions that way. We will open up the floor for the last five minutes.

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for q and a. And if you think somebody in your network would like this chat then

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I encourage you to hit that little hamburger in the left corner.

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and tap the globe, and you can share that to any of your favorite social channels.

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So without further ado, Doctor Dissolve,

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Personally,

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I had the very great privilege of starting abroad when I was in college.

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there was actually a recent article published two years ago by Forbes.

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citing signals that

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increased openness, agreeable, emotional stability,

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relative to a control group and a study that was conducted in twenty thirteen were found.

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in students in Germany.

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Mhmm.

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Doctor De develop, you've interface with a lot of

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students. What are your thoughts on the effects of travel and growing brains?

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Have you observed any pros or cons firsthand? And if so, can you tell us about it?

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Yeah.

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Absolutely. I'm I am a huge

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huge proponent of study abroad. I also know that

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study brought as a privilege, and I'll I'll talk about that in a second. But

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study abroad really is an opportunity for

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people to not only find their way

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around the world, they find their way

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in terms of who they are and what matters to them.

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And at the institutions I've worked at,

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two of them in particular, Boston University and Baptist College had very, very, very, very

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strong study broad programs. I've

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I've had experiences and other institutions. As I said earlier, I've worked at five different places.

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but those two in particular had had heightened

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effectiveness in terms of study abroad.

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And one of the things that they both had in common was that

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they took the study abroad program, and they gave students an option

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and it wasn't the only option. But there was an option that it was of

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almost more of an internship

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Mhmm

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in in a broad situation. So you would go to

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Australia, and you would, you know, your a journal as a major, you'd work

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at a newspaper or television station in in Australia.

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you went to Italy, You were a fine arts major

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you worked in a museum or something of that nature. So you actually got

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to take what you were there for practice

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in terms of what you are going to do a long term

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and it gave folks an opportunity to

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see how they did and navigate in some of the cases

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to say it was a foreign language that you're studying abroad in Italy. People speak Italian in Italy

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immerse yourself in the language as well as

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navigating your own competency in the profession that you're choosing

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that's a huge opportunity for students to really expand themselves.

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what you hear time and time again from students when they go abroad

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going to your point about emotional expansion and

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kind of being more open minded to to people in terms of different culture

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that sort of thing. They made it a priority a

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to take advantage of every single opportunity to travel

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especially students who ended up in Europe,

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you you would always hear. They were never on campus or in their host.

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home on the weekends, They would

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make sure that they took full advantage of the travel

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And so that way, they could really, really broaden their horizons

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And even if they're in country. So if they were in China or they were in us

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australia or whatever. They would take that time travel and within

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country is as well as they could. So I I have a huge huge

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love of that experience.

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and institutions that actually bake it in

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and are very intentional about it, and there's many of them out there.

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or they say we actually build in time for students to go

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study abroad so that regardless of

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of your major, you can go.

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those are are exe out there

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as far as being able to take advantage of that.

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I do wanna make a point though as I said earlier,

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studying abroad is a privilege, some students

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can't go because of their academic program, for instance,

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it's very hard to to jam in a study abroad program.

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if you are an engineering major or some of those other hard sciences,

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because they have certain laboratory responsibilities or or requirements

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that they have in terms of what they can see. So sometimes it's it's

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constrained by your major other times it's constrained by finances.

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for some students, it's just out of bounds in terms of what they can afford.

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And and then for some students, who are our

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especially first generation students.

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what we found when I worked at Mount College, we had

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first generation students who had never been on a plane.

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Mm-mm.

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who had never been on a plane domestically forget going abroad.

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and that idea of

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actually leaving the country for a period of time.

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was a bit more than they could handle physically or even their family can handle physically.

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And what we did there was we worked with Salamander and Dear Bank

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the the

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bank that's based out out of Spain and got a grant

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that brought students on these one week long study

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experiences, And so they were here in the United

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states for their semester, but there was a

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program that was a a

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a period of time where you could go abroad and we did that during spring break.

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or in the week following the end of the spring semester

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So you spend a whole semester in a in a kind of a symposium style

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class and then went abroad for a week.

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No worries.

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And I know this is a long answer to your question, But

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but I really wanna stress here is that

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mhmm.

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study abroad doesn't have to look the same. It doesn't have to be a whole semester

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or a whole year, It could be a ...it could be even that taste

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over a week that then expands the mind of the student who has not had the

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opportunity to get

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out of the country and actually immerse themselves in some ways.

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so I I hope I I

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Oh

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more than thoroughly answered your question, but you could sell I really care about this.

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I am so

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happy. I, you know, in full disclosure, I i ...as I said, I was

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highly privileged to be able to study abroad. I just did it for an eight week

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Mhmm.

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period because I have phil no and I didn't wanna take up a host semester.

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But and I am so embarrassed and I feel a little Brad saying this, but I

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Right.

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I didn't like it. Like, when I was there, I felt, like,

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sick. A i. Like, I was just like, oh, I have this like,

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and I just don't like it. And I was kind of ...it had this weird wavy dread feeling and

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I think that in Hindsight,

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Mhmm.

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Mhmm.

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it was just uncomfortable. Right? I was just growing

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and I don't know what to call it. So I just

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I but now looking back, oh my gosh. It was one of, you know, the most formidable

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experiences.

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Right.

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my career, I think I did run a phone history and drawing, and

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it was just it was something entirely else

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to sit in a classroom and learn about renaissance our history. I know we have The audience actually

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Mhmm.

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an artist, and and then go see it. Right? Like, it was just

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completely phenomenal. So

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you know, you talked about the organizations that you were at

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doing a really good job integrating. And so my

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question is this may have just been my own personal experience, but

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despite there being some financial help, like, there were scholarships

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or the study abroad office. I just did not

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Mhmm.

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feel like there was a lot of support in planning, and I i don't know if that was just be

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Yep.

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because of the way that journalism, my major integrated with that, and I know that maybe

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kelly's the the business school. I went to Vienna,

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they I think they had a little bit better of than integration, but, like,

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I just felt like it was totally separate. It's really hard to have

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to find the info. I got super frustrated. I had

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Mhmm.

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appointments that just really felt like I was getting nowhere.

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why do you think this happens? Like, is there a way to

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assist is it

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kinda every man for himself when it comes to every person for themselves.

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who when it comes to the the school is, like, do you have to send and for the

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Right.

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Right.

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So that's a really good question. And I I think it's important that if I

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if someone's listening to this and they wanna do study abroad, say they're in high school,

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or say you have a child and they're exploring their college

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the colleges that they're interested in and

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start having conversations with yourself and with your child about

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what what is it that you wanna achieve in your four years?

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And if study abroad is one of them,

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I would highly recommend or even something you're even considering.

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Okay. Someone in their senior year or junior or high school may have no

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damn idea if they wanna go study abroad, but at least giving them the options

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saying are you think you may wanna do it? And it's like, I I don't wanna not do it. Okay? Well,

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let's see when we go on these tours or we're exploring these campuses.

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what kind of support they have for this?

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And

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and getting to your point,

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Okay, Megan, is that

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schools that actually have formal study broad offices.

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Okay. And they do exist. There are institutions and the two that I just

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I I outlined before Baths in college in Boston University.

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to very different schools. David is a business school

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small school specialty school highly

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focused on entrepreneurship and then Boston University is a tier one

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Research University.

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okay. And you have made both of those institutions, there were

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offices that specifically focused on the service of students who were looking to go with study abroad

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And you

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they would have information sessions. You would go

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you would figure out which programs you wanted to do

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there were specific things you had to work with your advisor on

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to say, look, I'm I'm a journal as a major. I'm thinking of going study abroad.

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what are the things that I should be thinking about in terms of my course progression?

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And in that regard, the the advisors were

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or keyed in on some of the

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challenges or some of the things they had to be aware of.

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but at the same time, the study abroad office was always there to help

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paint the picture a bit more and say, look,

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these are the limitations. These are the things you need to be thinking about.

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and even pointing people in a direction of saying, I know you're thinking about going

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to France. But have you really ...have you potentially thought about going to us

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australia or to Great Britain because we actually have the program that is

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focused on journalism in those in those areas. So we've actually built out

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opportunities around journalism. So there's those kind of opportunities

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those kind of conversations happening.

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if you're looking at a school and they don't have a formal office,

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sometimes they come into one of the other two options. They either partner with

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an international organization that

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provides them their study abroad service. So they're not doing it in house.

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they are actually have a partner.

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okay. And more and more schools do this because of a couple reasons

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number one, it opens up the door for more options. They're not limited.

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you know, it

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from a from a scalability and opportunity standpoint,

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it really doesn't make sense to offer just a program in a location.

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okay. It doesn't ...it that doesn't serve the purpose.

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that you were talking about before Megan, which is giving people a broad understanding of what's

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happening. So they go with these. The other reason you would go with one of these outsource

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outfits is risk management.

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Mhmm.

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and I bring that up because their tragedies happen.

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conflicts happen, issues have

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in and you need to have an organization that can get kids back home quickly.

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or, you know, and some of the the emergency that happen don't happen

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abroad. They may happen at home. I've had many experiences where

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Unfortunately, a student's parent gets sick or

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loses a parent while they're abroad and now you have to get them home.

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So there's is a reason to have an organization that can get

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at home quickly. The other thing that schools will do

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is they will partner with universities that have larger programs.

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So I just talked about Boston University. There are schools out there that

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partner with b and say, they may not send them on all the B.

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study abroad programs, but they say, you know what? We like these

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five that you have. We're gonna partner with you and

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you and enroll as a Boston University student for that semester.

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and all of your courses are transferable.

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back to your university. So they may look at, you know, other universe

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that are like that. I believe that, like Usc, I believe is like that. I believe sarah

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embarrassed.

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use Nyu, there some other programs that people kind of

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branch out into

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Yeah. I think that now that you're explaining that and I think, you know, as I got older

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I understood. I actually ...I you did not have a program

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to go to Florence, and I believe I went their merit.

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Mhmm.

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and I was so confused as a student. Like, I literally could not grasp

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Yep.

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the concept of what was happening.

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Yep. Well, and that ...so getting to your point,

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earlier when your part of your question earlier is it is also about integration.

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you need to be able to provide

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excellent service to students regardless of where their origin campuses is.

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So if I'm the b liaison for

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the program. And let's say, you know,

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Ireland. And we have students from a bunch of schools I need to know oh,

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these are students from these programs. There's going to be of

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not only a culture shock of being in Ireland,

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but there is gonna be a culture shock of being a Boston University student in Ireland.

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Mhmm.

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and I'm an I student.

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Mhmm.

...

Mhmm.

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see what I'm saying? So you need to be able to to provide the proper

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services on that end. The university, that's the origin university.

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also needs to play a role here.

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And if they did not have or do not have

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an opportunity to sit down and say, okay, all of you

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who are going to these programs. You are going to be a interest

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student for this period of time or a n y student for this period of time.

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what this means is this is what your transcripts gonna look like. This is what

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gonna happen when it's all said and done.

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that's a conversation that needs to be had so that students understand what they're getting into.

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Mhmm.

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That makes sense.

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So the logistics

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are one thing. I wanna go back to what you had said before where

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you know,

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obviously, there are lots of different factors as it relates

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mm-mm

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to the ability to go. So it has to do with

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you know, the the financial situation has to do a time commitment it has

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with other credits and work workload. And so I'm curious.

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you know, I I came across a an open doors report.

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and open doors is super cool. It

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I just learned about this organization that aims to, you know, create more accessibility

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and resources for those studying abroad and then also international students in the Us.

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Mhmm.

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and it the

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this study said that basically

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for the twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen.

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nineteen academic here. There were a total of

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three hundred and forty seven thousand nine ninety nine students. You say abroad.

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Mhmm.

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which is an increase of one point six percent over the previous year.

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No.

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not diverse at all, which is something, you know, that open doors

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to combat. And then

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according to dot ed dot gov,

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there were, like, sixteen million full and part time students in a higher in High.

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Mhmm.

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Yep.

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in that same time, and that's like two percent of students

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And i ...you know, I found a an article go over dot com that

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code the same stat in twenty twelve. So it's like

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that's it really james. So it's

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It hasn't really changed. Yep.

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is there a way ...you know, obviously, they're

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so many logistical things

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Mhmm.

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Do you think that this is an element of

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like you said,

...

in more widespread integration into the culture of student life.

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Right.

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And if so, like, can we make it more integrated normalized?

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I I think it's a really interesting point. So there's

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there's some of this is also about the the the capacity that the institution has

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to send people abroad. Sending people abroad is expensive.

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Mhmm.

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Okay. It's not just a logistical but like, craziness. It's expensive.

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and, you know, sending students abroad if you don't

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run your program well, you may be losing money on sending students abroad.

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Okay. So that's that's a and so there may be from a from a finance

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say this is great. We wanna continue expand our program

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but we need to do it in a way that we're not crippling ourselves financially.

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Mhmm.

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And so some institutions need to to kind of sort that out.

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I think that there are a couple of ways to think about this.

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I think number one, when and and when you were talking about

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accessibility. I think there's also a piece of this not only is it not financially

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accessible, but for students who have physical disabilities,

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studying abroad is absolutely not accessible.

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Mhmm.

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and we don't do enough for them to be able to make their way around.

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Mhmm.

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other countries are not

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do not meet a

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Oh,

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on whatever they're

...

okay. So that aside.

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when you're talking about

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study abroad. One of the things I would

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And one

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week or two week.

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consolidated programs.

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those ...you gotta try to sit down and say, what are we trying to

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accomplice with this study of study away.

...

Mhmm.

...

rather say study abroad study away. Opportunity.

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are we trying to give them a one semester

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over, you know, immersive

...

experience or do we wanna give them the taste and the confidence of

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exploring and seeing the world.

...

Okay.

...

Mhmm.

...

and those one week programs are things where you could actually, like,

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like, we experienced my previous institution find

...

people which find corporations who are willing to help

...

Mhmm.

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give scholarships for this.

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it's a short term

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it is a lot cheaper to run

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you can get faculty and staff

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to from your university to be the the guides

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to the program. So as an example, we had

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one of our history professors, she was an

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spur in the holocaust. She took students to auschwitz

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and to several of the other concentration camps

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it I'm not telling you it was a not the trip. Okay. It wasn't.

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okay. But it was an immersive experience and the entire

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The class was the psychology of hate.

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And so it was a ...it was a trip between her and a psych

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professor.

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okay. And they took the students abroad. They

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went all over all over saw several of the concentration camps

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and then came back. And then they took that to practice

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death into their communities.

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here in the United States in terms of how is this

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to what's happening now around hate speech and what's

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happening around the increase of

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you know, groups hate groups and that sort of thing.

...

So so when you look at this. Okay. And you say what is an

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what is an experience? What is a study a abroad experience?

...

it doesn't have to be ...as I said earlier, this idea the one month or the one

...

semester or the whole summer or the year.

...

Okay.

...

you can make it into something shorter.

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And the value there

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for the student is ...it it gives more students who may be a little anxious

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you said it yourself when you went abroad. You weren't really feeling it. You were kind of anxious

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this wasn't really ...you weren't having a great time.

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one week is different than

...

then

...

three months. Right?

...

Mhmm.

...

and there's less risk there. There's less of a

...

excuse.

...

there's less of a ...like, a drop off and and and drop out type of

...

situation. And it's a more manageable amount of money. Okay?

...

and you can run these programs and say this is gonna be the budget. We're gonna

...

seek fundraiser fundraising. We're gonna get grants. We're gonna get

...

big big donations to come in, and I will say this

...

It's sexy from the from the stamp

...

point of your fundraising office, something like this is enormously sexy.

...

because you say, look what our students are doing. They're going abroad. They're learning something. They're taking those

...

skills are bringing it back here and we're inf it into our community in some way.

...

and and that

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heighten the the interest of these programs.

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from a donor perspective.

...

Yeah.

...

Wow. I ...you know, to me, I ...and again, it

...

could've have just been my perspective and what I had

...

exposure to within my specific

...

department, you know, within this specific relationship

...

Mhmm.

...

to the study of abroad programs that were available. But I just

...

don't think that there is

...

quite

...

Hi.

...

anything like that. And I think that, yeah, that would've have been struck

...

Right.

...

sure that would have been, you know, because of guardrails for lack of better terms or sort of like

...

Oh, I'm not just

...

Mhmm.

...

I think you're right. I think the the phrase study abroad is very

...

general, and it can be very intimidating as well.

...

Yeah.

...

it really can. Well, and the other thing that those short term programs

...

can do is it actually opens up

...

opportunities in places where the country itself doesn't have

...

the capacity to hold a a semester long program.

...

Mhmm.

...

Okay.

...

And so you can go to a space. I I

...

No. Killing myself here. I can't remember where it was. But we had a veterinary technology

...

room on our campus, and they did

...

two of these programs one year, they went and

...

rescued dogs and wild dogs who were

...

stray and did

...

in Mexico, they went to Mexico, and they went and they did

...

bay and new, and were there for a week

...

doing that and did some other exploration, which was great.

...

And then another year, they went to

...

can't remember where it was in Asia, but it was a place where there was an elephant

...

conservative, and they went and they studied elephants.

...

Wow.

...

and it was, you know, so you really can

...

Mhmm.

...

expand the space and the scope of the program.

...

by having shorter term programs.

...

I think that's brilliant. I mean, I ...it's it it's so it it's a lot more

...

Yeah.

...

curated it seems, and there's a lot more tangible benefits, and then

...

ultimately, I'm sure I wonder if, you know, now I'm like, oh, or they're

...

Right.

...

studies out there, like, what happened to students that were able to go?

...

No. And those ...there ...there's there should be. I mean, if someone's

...

this is looking at a doctor program. They ...I mean, this is a great opportunity for you to say is there

...

is there a study we can do on the on the impact of short terms

...

you brought programs on students. And and

...

mm-mm

...

I think the other thing about those kinds of programs. And as you said, they're very curated.

...

when you run a program like that,

...

you know, it was almost a like a contest with the faculty. You're

...

who's gonna propose the winning five programs this year because, you know, we have the

...

we have we can do five or six or whatever end to being.

...

but we can do x number of programs. We need you to

...

put in your proposals, you know, a year in advance, so we can vet it

...

see what we can do. And

...

you know, they really put a lot of work into it. They

...

they went right down to the like, some of the granular stuff

...

in terms of what the students were going to experience and where they were gonna

...

day and all that sort of thing. But it really

...

you know, opened our eyes up to how really innovative the

...

faculty to be, and they were they were wonderful programs.

...

I love that so much.

...

I I I've gonna really quickly Kate has a great

...

question that I wanna address. But I

...

you know, just to wrap up this lighter discussion before we

...

get into some questions and and do the q a.

...

so we went through a lot, and, you know, it's no secret that it's a very calm

...

answer. There are a lot of different nooks and crannies of the study of

...

space and hair education.

...

Could you take a step back and make a

...

a broader generalization and say, like, if there was the one biggest roadblock,

...

is it the students and their

...

Mhmm.

...

accessibility and an ability is it in time? Is it the

...

champions at the institutions that need to take on

...

Yeah.

...

you know, these programs like we just talked out of this curated nature

...

is it the larger organizations and just like the lack

...

resources or, like, the funding or, you know, the the mitigation of risk.

...

do you can you identify as there, like, the one biggest one that could

...

be there. And to the other side, is there one that we could easily

...

come.

...

Right. I think the ...I'm gonna start with the one we can overcome. I think we could be

...

creative and think

...

think differently about what the program could be. And I've talked a little bit about that.

...

So I think that's one where you say, right.

...

let's let's look at our own culture, our own campus, our own student makeup,

...

and come up with a program that actually fits

...

that and doesn't have to be like every like, the the

...

Mhmm.

...

you know, the the stereotypical study abroad program. So that's of

...

how you can do it quickly.

...

and you ......well, not quickly. But ...but and that's ...that's your lower hanging fruit

...

okay. Because you can look at that and say, okay. What what does this look like for our campus in our community?

...

I think the bigger thing. I think the thing that probably is the hardest

...

thing to overcome

...

from the cost.

...

which isn't necessarily gonna get better.

...

Mhmm.

...

Okay. And how it works with

...

Oh,

...

We last

...

Oh,

...

And and I did kind of

...

Sorry. We we we I didn't

...

I don't know if god answered, but the second thing to the cost

...

and then we lost each for just a second.

...

That's

...

Oh, sorry about that.

...

So the cost, and then the the second thing to that is

...

students go ...there's something called of course, progression.

...

Mhmm.

...

Right? And if you're in a major

...

you have to kinda hit on all of these required courses.

...

Right.

...

and

...

institutions don't make up their port course progression to ...to fit

...

study abroad.

...

Okay.

...

Mhmm.

...

and

...

there could be ways that institutions could be more

...

mindful, of course, progression. There are gonna be some majors

...

that just don't work.

...

Mhmm.

...

that always is gonna happen. But if you are in, especially

...

in liberal arts major

...

something like journalism, something, like psychology, some the, you know,

...

if we're talking about some of those major education,

...

you are gonna be more more likely to be able

...

to do the abroad program if people

...

put the time and effort into saying, this is what it would look like if you were a

...

x month major, and you wanted to go abroad.

...

Mhmm..

...

because I think what happens as students don't

...

think about it. They just assume they can't.

...

Yeah.

...

And so you have to be proactive and say to them

...

Oh, you know what? Judy, you are, you know, you

...

you know, if you wanted to do an abroad, we would appreciate we would

...

encourage you to think about this. But if you're not doing abroad, this is a

...

Mhmm.

...

this is what your schedule gonna look like. So giving people some opportunity

...

to kind of do forward thinking and we don't necessarily do that.

...

oh, boy. Do you think that that is a conversation

...

within, like,

...

this the departments themselves or is it like the

...

school and saying, hey, we wanna normalize this as part of our, like,

...

onboarding conversation sorts.

...

Well, that's something that some schools, if you look at their strategic plan,

...

they a lot of universities in colleges say,

...

We are an international university who embraces international

...

this in a world view in a world this

...

if that's the case on your on your campus, if anywhere

...

along the way you talk about international worldview diversity,

...

all that

...

which they all do.

...

Mhmm.

...

your study abroad person

...

or persons

...

needs to have the political capital on your campus to say how do we heighten the

...

success of this program, What do we need to do?

...

And so I talk about political capital, it's who are they aligned with,

...

on their campus, Is it the proto host? Is it the vice president for academic of

...

errors is it the vice present for student affairs? Is it the president?

...

to say,

...

we know

...

we're gonna do some research into what our capacity could be

...

and we ...this is what it will cost

...

and this is what they cost to the university would be, but we're gonna do our homework

...

we're gonna say this is what we can do, and this is how we can make it work.

...

Mhmm.

...

now

...

there are some universities

...

that make study abroad mandated

...

and do it in their freshman year.

...

and take the entire freshman class with them.

...

but that is when there is oftentimes times you hear about that,

...

that is not because people are so committed to international travel.

...

they may argue with me on this. They may say no. No. No. This is something that's really important to us.

...

sometimes the origin of this is they just simply didn't have enough housing. So it's a way to ship

...

off

...

oh,

...

you know?

...

five hundred kids or whatever it might be to an abroad

...

location, and then they come back to campus in January and fill the

...

fill those beds because they know they're gonna have milk.

...

Interesting.

...

that is

...

that's a very clever way to

...

than that.

...

It's a way to balance the books.

...

Oh, yeah. Well, this has been so fast

...

and in Kate, you had a great question I wanted to bring back and this goes back to the topic of this

...

room and just, you know, the general benefits of travel on

...

Mhmm

...

growing brains. And how do we make this marks accessible? The Case says

...

what would you say is the minimum amount of time a student should spend studying abroad?

...

really understand themselves in different countries slash cultures.

...

That's a great question., Kate, I think that

...

you know, what we're trying to do

...

in the higher ed landscape in terms of

...

students and their self actual and trying to figure out who they are.

...

every student gonna work on their own pace. Right? And

...

for a student who's never been on an airplane and left

...

you know, the the

...

their home city,

...

and they literally have just gone to school down the street or

...

they've been driven to school and they've never gotten on a plane.

...

one week of broad

...

might be something that just jars them

...

to a point of I need more of this. I need more

...

exposure to other countries and cultures. Okay. And I've seen it happen.

...

and then they take that next leap to say, I'm gonna go on a longer abroad

...

trip or I'm going arranged to to do something over a summer.

...

other students who may already have a worldview view

...

or have more opportunity for travel or more opportunity for

...

even things within the domestic of travel, but

...

have had other opportunities

...

they may be a more like, savvy traveler, and maybe a little

...

you know,

...

you need a little more of an experience to actually make something happen.

...

Now I think the other thing that we haven't talked about is making sure that the program they're

...

going on is actually a good fit for them.

...

is it purely something to immerse yourself in in another language?

...

is it something where you're actually taking classes in your major

...

and your major and and you're doing more of an internship experience.

...

Is it a combination of the two? Is it a service

...

trip. That is a. That is another option that you see

...

there that students literally do a semester abroad, and it's almost like a a

...

you're you're you're really just doing service, but it's ...but there is a context

...

of of course, work. So so depending on the

...

college or University. There's that. So

...

you have to pick something that's actually going to be a good fit

...

for you from a a not only motivation standpoint.

...

but from an emotional standpoint. And and when you pick something that's

...

truly a good fit that actually

...

heightened, I think that that soc emotional opportunity to

...

expand yourself and say, I've I really

...

I have I have come to find out this is really what I want.

...

conversely

...

you may have picked something that you thought was gonna be a great thing and you say this is something I am literally so

...

offering through for a whole semester, and I don't like this at all.

...

That's not a bad thing.

...

it, you know, And I think sometimes people look, well, that was a waste. No. It's not.

...

because when you have a semester, you know, I always like to say to people, colleges are a place

...

were failing

...

while it's no fun to fail. There's people there to catch you.

...

There are people there.

...

within the university structure to say,

...

Okay.

...

Let's get you back on track.

...

what do we have to do? What services can we provide?

...

Now if you go abroad and it ...and it's kind of a set setback,

...

it's not as fun and experience potentially.

...

Alright.

...

But at least, you know,

...

I thought I wanted to do this. I thought I wanted to say do the piece core after graduation

...

well, after the semester of service, this just does not in my my

...

wheelhouse. I don't think this is for me. Well, that's a good thing to find out now.

...

so that's never ...it's never a bad thing to take that risk.

...

I couldn't agree more. Well, I found out in eight weeks that I am not

...

a drawer

...

And I don't need to be an artist

...

Right.

...

or jaw nude models. So

...

this is very

...

Right. Well, and it's ...you know, when you have that

...

spirit. So you're you were abroad. You were like, okay.

...

this is I am not

...

able to do this new drawing

...

thing, and I would rather be

...

with my camera. Okay. So now ...but

...

But

...

that eight weeks did not mean you you failed in any way.

...

Nope.

...

it meant that you

...

you pushed yourself

...

you found yourself in an uncomfortable situation, and you realized

...

Alright.

...

I

...

I see the value here.

...

I understand what's happening. I understand that they're

...

people who are better at this than me, this is not necessarily not me being as good.

...

this is not me being as connected to this art form.

...

I can appreciate it.

...

I can go watch it

...

I can go look at it. I have a love for it now.

...

that's a different type of love, but I also know I'm not a creator of this art.

...

Absolutely.

...

I love that. What a good perspective.

...

Doctor, this has been

...

absolutely fascinating. I could go on forever.

...

I know we're a teeny bit over time. So I'm gonna, open up the floor for a question

...

and if you have a question for doctor Develop about

...

stunning abroad or higher education, please invite yourself up on stage.

...

in the meantime, Doctor Developed, I'm going to put you on a spot. Very

...

Mhmm.

...

quickly, I have a section called three travel cakes.

...

And so this is just to give singular answers. First that

...

to mind because I just think it's so interesting to hear other people's world

...

Okay.

...

So where was the first place you traveled outside of your quote unquote

...

known. So it could have been even in, you know, your backyard.

...

Oh,

...

Chicago.

...

so

...

Yeah.

...

Yeah.

...

it's pretty overwhelming. I guess.

...

where have you traveled that was different from what you've expected?

...

China.

...

I have not been, and I would like

...

go. I would love to go to Asia. That's a good answer. And the last one, what is the best

...

thing you've brought back from a trip either an idea an object, a relationship

...

a recipe

...

my daughter.

...

Oh, what a good answer.

...

That's why I went to China yet.

...

I love that. That's amazing.

...

Yes. And is.

...

what a good store well, that's a story for another day. But it's

...

Oh, I laugh

...

You can do an international adoption show, and I can get you a few people to come on.

...

oh my gosh. I would love to do if that would be amazing. Kate, welcome up to the stage.

...

Hi. I'm very much enjoying this

...

conversation and

...

travel and study abroad is something that is very near years

...

i heard. I actually did the my undergraduate and my masters overseas.

...

Very nice.

...

Yes. And I don't regret it for a second.

...

one of the questions I had though was

...

So my undergraduate program was in Romeo Italy.

...

Mhmm

...

and our university is quite small. So there's about a hundred and fifty to two hundred

...

full time students, and then every semester, there is about three to five hundred study abroad.

...

So we ...as a full time community we got

...

know each other very well and, you know, kind of roll her eyes when someone rolled in for the next

...

four months or so.

...

Right.

...

and

...

But that being said, we were always very, very

...

happy that individuals were getting to know

...

you know, something outside their comfort zone.

...

right getting to know a different culture and community.

...

one of the things though that when reflecting on it, I

...

think maybe was

...

a little bit of

...

a mist up in the different programs

...

with a lot of time study abroad students,

...

Mm-mm

...

would be housed in hotels.

...

or in a permanent units where the entire building

...

was rented out therefore preventing access

...

from the wider community whereas full time

...

students. There wasn't a student housing we were placed in apartments throughout the city.

...

in in traditional housing blocks.

...

And so I'm curious to know Doctor about what your thoughts are

...

some of these seemingly

...

Mhmm.

...

smaller thing that we may overlook in order to help

...

students become more acquainted with the

...

culture that they are entering into as opposed to surrounding them so

...

with classmates needs with languages they're familiar with foods

...

Yep.

...

familiar with and how to encourage them to get in

...

evolved in the community

...

Mhmm.

...

whether, again, that's living with neighbors

...

in the local local community or just kind of

...

exploring outside of that traditional American college

...

experience.

...

Mhmm. That's a really good question. And we also, you should look at it from the converse

...

looking at it here when we bring international students in the United States,

...

what are we doing here?

...

to to immerse them in the in what

...

you can call it American culture. I don't know how much of a culture we have, but that's a different show.

...

But, you know, but

...

you know, what are we doing when we bring international students here? But

...

to your point. I think there's two pieces here. One of them

...

as an answer you may not like. The other one is an answer that, I think is

...

is more in line with with where my heart is.

...

In the first question, and the first answer you may not like, is this?

...

going to the point earlier about how are we gonna make this

...

something we can afford to run. What is it gonna look like?

...

And a lot of times, housing is always the issue, and where do you gonna you're in a house student?

...

some students

...

in a home environment,

...

don't do as well.

...

And

...

you may know that, you know, living with some of these

...

host families can be overwhelming. And I've

...

heard some wonderful stories, and I've heard some some not so wonderful stories.

...

and there are gonna be some universities who say, you know what?

...

we would rather

...

have all the students

...

in a hotel or rent out a

...

dorm style place and put them all together.

...

and it's a little more sanitized and a little less

...

immersive in the culture. But at least we know

...

that they will have

...

hot water that they will have a clean place, you know, all that kind of stuff

...

Alright.

...

and that's a decision that that institution makes because they know

...

what they're in for and what kind of students they're ...that that are gonna be going abroad.

...

It doesn't

...

exactly get

...

the student

...

the full experience in my estimation,

...

that is where the situation of

...

too is one of these things where I would like to see

...

more universities for a variety of reasons.

...

partner.

...

So if there's five universities all doing,

...

some kind of program in Rome Italy.

...

and you have the opportunity to house

...

folks over there and maybe in concert with each other

...

be able to put people in maybe smaller housing

...

let them kind of be in in an apartment

...

And. Yeah, all the five people in the Apartment are part of this program. But

...

other apartments in the building are filled with

...

people from Rome. It that is a better experience

...

potentially for these students. But that means you have to ...that's a logistical

...

challenge

...

it's nothing that's insurmountable.

...

when I travel to Rome with Mara

...

college several years ago, my husband was working there, and they did a

...

a special program for folks to get in touch with.

...

Mar college is a August Catholic

...

University here in the United States. And there's

...

to August Catholic schools, the And Mar.

...

And so there was this

...

program called a Pell, and you went to Italy and you traveled

...

across Italy and traveled to visit

...

kind of the the path of St Augustine,

...

around Italy and it gave you a better idea of of his travels

...

where the August, you know,

...

part of the Catholic church came from, etcetera.

...

And when we were there, we were in Rome

...

we went to the Vatican and all of the, you know, the the

...

the Americans had a place, the graduates out of place, They all had a place

...

Okay.

...

But

...

the Athens place wasn't full.

...

and several of the other ones weren't in full.

...

And so when you look at these opportunities, there's places you can find

...

that may be interested in renting you some space.

...

and we have to get out of this mindset of it. Oh, it all has to look the same.

...

in the United States, we have a real problem with this.

...

all collagen universities need to feel like they have the high end norm and

...

the great place here and blah blah blah

...

and we take all the personality away

...

I really don't want that to happen in the study abroad.

...

lens because then you might as well just have people go stay at a Marriott.

...

and that doesn't give them the full experience.

...

Yeah.

...

So

...

I'm I'm actually really glad Do said that because that was my

...

experiences we had

...

essentially, it was a group of individuals from the program, like,

...

safe five or six of us in an apartment, but the rest of the apartment was

...

filled with Roman

...

Yeah. Yeah.

...

inhabitants natives right? Whereas we saw the study broad program

...

come in and and, like, you said, they they would all be staying in the Marriott and

...

which just ...it's there's nothing bad. And as you said, it might be uncomfortable. I don't think there's anything wrong with

...

and

...

responses are are uncomfortable. I think it's always a learning opportunity. Right?

...

Mhmm. Mhmm.

...

I think for me, it's just more of a missed opportunity and how can we better that?

...

so that individuals are more immersed in the culture while also keeping in

...

mind as you mentioned, there is going to be a range

...

of the individuals and their conferences.

...

kate

...

Right. Well, and and I'm and and that is one of those things. You know,

...

I mean, I'm I'm of a certain age where I remember people

...

traveling and going to use hostile.

...

and you don't hear that much anymore.

...

I wonder whether or through the Covid

...

pandemic of youth hustle even have a space anymore.

...

but that's another story.

...

but there's

...

I think what happened is that that adventure of travel

...

is not as much valued right now as much as the convenience of travel.

...

I do have this to say.

...

The one thing I always was was paramount to me was always safety.

...

And in any of those study abroad programs that

...

that I had any connection with

...

having there was an emergency

...

program that many universities worked with

...

that allowed for, you know, if there was a reason to get

...

students back quickly, either because of the location or be

...

because of something happening at the location or or something happening at

...

back at the home campus, there was a way to get

...

Me the most important thing on any of these

...

study broad trips, but that's also the same if I'm sending eight hundred

...

students on a alternative spring break here in the United States.

...

I wanna be able to get people back, and I wanna make sure it's safe and all that.

...

if we're able to get ourselves into a situation where their safety is assured,

...

and the students are gonna have the most rich experience possible

...

I think that sometimes, you know, a ...whether it be two months,

...

or a semester or even a week.

...

they can rough it a little bit to get immersed in the experience.

...

I love that. And I'm so sorry to cut you off doctor go what Kate said was

...

kind of it's like

...

know, they were trying to do something good, but

...

inadvertently almost kind of created a little bit of an echo chamber

...

which is a little bit of the problem that we're seeing now with things like social media

...

Mhmm.

...

Yep.

...

and, you know, you just unintentionally surround yourself with likeness,

...

Yeah.

...

Right.

...

and you never get exposed to different things. So

...

Right.

...

But even though you try to do something that was good, I love that.

...

Absolutely.

...

that's a that's a what a wonderful question.

...

Well, doctor Vote ...this has been absolutely fascinating. I mean,

...

No worries.

...

Thank you so much for your time going a little bit over.

...

You have a sub called west of the

...

Yeah.

...

Yes.

...

Academy as well as two shows here on fire

...

i office hours with Doctor Da and the kitchen table.

...

t share a little bit high level about those, and then we're

...

can people find you and find out more about your work?

...

Thank you. Yeah. So I have the two

...

shows here on Fireside. I have office hours with Doctor David,

...

which is on Wednesdays at noon

...

and it is really a show focused on Us higher education. So if you like this

...

conversation tune in because all we talk about is higher ed

...

Today, we had a great conversation with

...

the best Brand pedro, who is a health educator

...

and we really focused on the Covid vaccines and trying to how can

...

colleges and universities

...

help to increase the percentage of the eighteen

...

to twenty nine year olds, which is right now our lowest percentage

...

of age group that has gotten vaccinated

...

and how can that actually help? So we had a really great conversation

...

station today. So it's in my

...

So if you follow me here on Fireside, you can pull that the replay of

...

please listen and that was a great show on Monday night

...

sorry. Tuesday nights. We have a show called the kitchen table.

...

and it is a different kind of political podcast, and that is really

...

conversation for us to get together and get away from something

...

that we call political hobby.

...

people are very good at rage tweeting. They're

...

sometimes good at donating a couple bucks here and there, two of

...

a candidate, which is important. But what it is,

...

to get beyond political hobby and actually get into action.

...

And how can you make action happen?

...

in your backyard as well as at a a national level.

...

and we've had some excellent conversations around everything from

...

how to be how to volunteer how to work with an organizer

...

We've had political organizers from the

...

us off Buddha judge, biting campaigns,

...

we've had a

...

climate activists. We've had people who

...

are out there to try to dispel disinformation and misinformation

...

online. So we've had some really great conversations. So those are my two

...

standard shows. I am gonna be taking a short break from both of them.

...

and I wanna plug this one, which is Covid is a drag.

...

and it is my short run show, which will start next week.

...

and I will be interviewing folks in Province

...

two, which is an artist colony out of the tip of

...

tip of Cape Cod, and I'll be in her interviewing. It's a big Lgbt

...

Community, and I'll be interviewing folks who wrote out the

...

the pandemic in province.

...

what they learned about themselves, how they pivoted their business

...

and how they learn from their community, and we'll be having everybody

...

from restaurant tours to drag queens. It's gonna be a great show.

...

Oh my gosh. I loved that.

...

And if you

...

I'm so excited.

...

It is it's gonna be great. And if you wanna find me,

...

best places, Twitter, and my handle is

...

in my subject. I'm sorry. I am my Fireside

...

profile. So if you click on my face right now, you'll see my my

...

my Twitter handle.

...

Awesome.

...

Is that what is that? I I will put ...it's ...is it doctor or devote?

...

is it?

...

It's devour train. Yeah.

...

Okay. I'm gonna put that in the fortune cook

...

Fantastic.

...

so that everybody and

...

it's forgotten e

...

these tiny screens. Oh, man. I think

...

I know they're ...they're very tiny, and my my thumbs are very big

...

so

...

I think I got.

...

same. I have sat hear things all the time. Well, thank you, again, this was asked

...

silly just

...

I think, you know, the audience speaks for themselves and

...

I think everybody was very engaged. What an important conversation to have and

...

this is something I'm super passionate about. I'm just like, how do we get more people to have this

...

experience and, you know, it's ...know a small feat are a lot of obstacles close to overcome, But

...

I feel like I got a really thorough understanding of it also.

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Thank you. Thank you again.

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Well, Megan you're doing a great job This is an awesome show. So thank you very much for having me.

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Thank you. And thank you to everybody else.

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for tuning in and widening your worldview view with us here on Fireside.

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on your host, Megan Ink, You can learn more about wider worldview and grappling to a previous

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episodes over at w w w dot color in curiosity dot com.

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or follows on social media at color dot and curiosity.

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We will see you back here next week. We will

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actually be talking to another education professional

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code dreams founder and the program director of careers in computer science

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at University of Chicago, Kaplan on working and service

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abroad, and this is exciting live from

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ten. She's actually gonna be traveling to Kenya So we're gonna be

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streaming from there, keep an eye out for future programming.

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And, like I said, balls over on color and curiosity dot com.

Fortune Cookie