The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.

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The future of entertainment is interactive.

Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.

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Transcript

...

How cool is that? Well, we mute the

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wake bot

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with the lovely living piece and quite quite

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can't place it was a chopper or or all of money enough,

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but somewhere in that direction,

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in any case, in any case,

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where

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we are

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still waiting for second speaker, but let's get started. Let's get started.

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This my friends is the first

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in what I have to be

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A long series of

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interesting chats around

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arts and issues

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arising the from

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the relationship of the answer of the world and the relationship of the arts to business and vice versa,

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And

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tonight,

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we are

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discussing the

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The way artists

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may or may not find their way

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in this new digital reality that we are surrounded with and surrounded with.

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Because, of course, digital is now the new normal,

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and as many professionals and pen have observed.

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We have accepted more difficult confirmation in the

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the last twelve months then we would in many years,

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the arts, of course, in particular performing us have been massively affected

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in many case for the worst.

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With southern restrictions to

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access to life audiences

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well, at the same time,

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there has been a very

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it has been a creative very creative time for many

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with musicians writers as others

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reporting,

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more times spent at on the projects

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reflect in high quality of the work as well as simply more of it.

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So today, we're talking about digital as means of delivery

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and distribution, not so much as creation that these, of course, are related.

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And

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since since reaching

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of

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audiences has never seemingly been

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easier.

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But the question of when and how to find them is central to

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to our conversation.

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We are talking to two practitioners.

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Whose careers have often taken them into fields, digital,

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and who can offer

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some hard one learnings about how artists can find ways to reach audiences

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and indeed, where to begin to look for them.

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Paul jitter is a theater director

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who has from new york excited but it's currently based in Warsaw.

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And Adrian Ko is a composer

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musician music label owner

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based in shortage in old London town.

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Welcome both to the creative farm

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Hello.

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Hello.

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Nice to be here.

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The world certainly looks very different than it did a year ago. Artists

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usually thrive on change.

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So how are you fearing and how have you been

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adjusting to this new landscape

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who wants to start himself?

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Shall I start ...I guess. You go for it. Oh, wednesday it? I'm a ...well,

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yeah. I just said I'm living in London.

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And

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my workspace on my limits space are sort of one on the same. So

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you know, my work has being

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my work life and and non work life are usually quite believed, but it's become even more. So

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And

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at the beginning of block,

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I was finishing a project,

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which was

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point these box Tv shows. It's in star with

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Tim, and I've got a string session book to finish all the music

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for half of the series. And in the end, obviously, we got canceled. I realized that

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getting a bunch of string plays in a room together would not happen. So

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from mid March, I I was working out ways to

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you know, finish a rather massive project. You know that I would be leaving my house to do it.

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And, yeah, you know, it's been, like you said, I mean, the creative ...tools

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that I think the digital technology always had, that feels like it's come light years in the last

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six to eight months and the

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you know, whereas digital always a fact similarly or an that's way you're doing something or,

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you know, suddenly becoming,

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a creative tool in ways I've never experienced, I guess up to know right music can contributing.

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So give us a for, you know, I mean, I know it of my distribution and I'm you watch to you, and I'm kind of talking more about the creator act, But

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so the moment, I

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I mean, overlap, I have later to have a small label, which

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releases predominantly

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it's called new music, which is the the the phrase

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so you don't know so kind of contemporary classical

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tech ten to be on the experiment side.

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But ...but,

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yeah, so I had this label. So I was running and in the middle of lockdown dane

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alongside finishing the music for this project a composed from Japan got in touch as that the blue.

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And

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we started talking about working on some music to together as a release for a label.

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But over the last few months, it's actually

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to me collaborating

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with two

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musicians in Japan one a

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a very amazing precautions called Young motor.

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This composer Tackle,

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and I've never been to Japan. I,

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you know,

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always that a fascination

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with Japanese culture wanted to collaborate and suddenly over the course

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this lot dang,

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you know, I'm

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I mean, like yes,, for example, I I I sent some music with the

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patrick the professionals, and I got a recording sent back

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some never met,

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you know, never even been seen, you know, taught on scope or any of these platforms, you know, just a few emails.

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And when I didn't fact this recording, and I was like this is kind of amazing. It's ...you

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know, you have on this one piece that you sent back, there was a room

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recording the basement ever go in liverpool. There was a room

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recorded somewhere in London that I wasn't in, with a drink what's recorded in, And then there was another room on top that we recorded somewhere in Japan. I don't even know which television you live in.

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And there's these three spaces like, super post on top of each other and he'd done that on purpose

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and a little gay.

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And, you know,

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I guess, you know, this assumption that

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people could do before.

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But

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suddenly

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the gains that you can play with the virtual

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of the of the actual collaboration, but also, with the fact that these is real

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specific capital physical spaces in the in in my case, in terms of the rooms the music is performed, which is something quite important to me.

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With So creating a new thing, which I found ...I've never do, you know,

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So that's ...yeah. One particular example,

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that is quite fresh at moment.

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The new thing is

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exciting of yeah

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on many levels,

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but it is also somewhat terrifying. I'm sure remote collaboration is no

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standard for just about every business that can be placed

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as knowledge work.

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Absolutely.

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And evidently, this is working out fine

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or at least

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heading in that direction. Are mean for you adrian. Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's also this weird sense of space that is starting to develop for me with with this

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lockdown down in this time and with the the way digital technology is sort of transforming in some of the ways I'm thinking

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in the you know, I don't actually ...at the moment, really see too many people in the time that I live in.

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So my sense of space in London has shrunk massively, but at the same time,

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my sense of space

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of other places has kind of

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being super supposed on top of that. So I live in London bar physically, not,

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you know, mixing and doing the things I've normally doing in london. However, I'm in all these own virtual space and I'm using these virtual spaces to actually collaborate and write music with people.

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And, you know, before lot going again, and that would be in real spaces in London, and maybe the people would be invited into that space and you would

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and you would do the work. So it's this it's something very strange for me, but in an next exciting way,

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in the creative ways maybe in the personal way and collect and other things it's not so great to this fragmentation.

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From your real real environment but

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but. Yeah. That's where we're at.

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Let's spark that talk for moment because I don't want to

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get back to this idea of

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en of circles of collaborators somehow.

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Growing geographically, but

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for

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your

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a company has been experimenting

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with many different formats of last year. So in fact,

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in front the correctly, you founded the

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theater during the pandemic

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get to share some of the more aspects in flops

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of the process. And and also, of course, what I've been the the times when

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ideas proved to be right on the money.

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Yeah. It's it's always important to talk about failure.

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It's the

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the the mother the mother of all

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the mother of necessity. I would say.

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I think

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well, let me tell you a little story about how this came to be

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And a little bit about my background. I've I've always been in

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the live arts and and almost always in the small spaces.

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So most of the work I've done is

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in small rooms,

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one hundred seats to two hundred seats,

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and that's where I like it.

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And so

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when the lockdown happened

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in Poland, which is over a year ago, the first one,

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I mean, it was a disaster for the entire sector,

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and there was a lot of talking and thinking about what to do.

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And I

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decided that

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everyone's going everyone's going digital or everyone's going silent.

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And given the choice of

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between those two, we decided to go digital.

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But how to do it

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I'm I'm I'm really practicing

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the live arts in in the most simple primitive way.

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So I didn't have any experience whatsoever.

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In digital broadcasting

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in livestream streaming

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or any of these things.

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So

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what we did was

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I just reached out to some of my friends who had some experience. And one in particular

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is a Vo

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who I've collaborated with on on a number of

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performances in the past.

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And asked them what he thought about trying to do a digital stage. And

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he said, well, I have an idea for you

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in his

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normal life before pandemic, one of his main bread and butter jobs was doing

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De and full scale tech tech support for large rock shows in Poland.

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Seventeen knew he knew people who we're in that business

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on the side of providing all the equipment and what have you.

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So he went to one of the

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equipment rental companies that he was quite familiar with and asked them

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if they would set up a studio for us.

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And they were interested because they had nothing to do. They were completely out of business. They had a warehouse

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piled to the the ceiling,

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with state of the art

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performance equipment. So lights sound everything.

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And I realized right away that

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at the prices that they were willing to offer us, which was almost before free.

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We could have the state of the art broadcast studio

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And

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I mean, stated of the artist in ...yeah,

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literally. I mean, we had everything be just could ask for

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And what this allowed was

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was for us to experiment. And

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then what do you do? And

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so we decided to launch our ourselves into

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live broadcasting

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through Facebook and Youtube,

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and we tried to stick to the to our

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ourselves as live on by trying to to

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incorporate what we could that was live.

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So we tried

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basically a live television show with a call in audience

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where we have a very excellent actor who's very good at improvisation.

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And this became enormously political,

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very interesting

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hour long thing. We have no idea what we were doing. Every night, we crossed our fingers and prayed

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that the signal would

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go across both platforms.

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Oftentimes, it didn't

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one would fall off, and we went be stuck on just one channel,

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but somehow we managed to work and

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I think for me, the entire experience has been

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I would even say

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kind of life changing

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it's

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it's brought the work into a global audience

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in ways that was never even in my wildest imaginations.

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Possible

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in the past.

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And also,

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live arts are, of course,

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ultimately temporal. They're they only exist in the moment. You have to be there.

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And in digital,

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they're somehow almost permanent.

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Once they're up on the net,

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on a on a permanent platform like Youtube,

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it's there forever almost. And what I've noticed in the numbers is that

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the shows we did last summer are still being visited.

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So this is also something that I've never experienced an artist.

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Yes. This

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car.

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Pervasive permanently that some of some

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director

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are

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rebellion against it mic think probably

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most notoriously.

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But this is an idea that, of course, is

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close related to what we're talking about, and that is

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once you have created the thing, the object

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turn life of its own.

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But

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in in ways that are not entirely

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not entirely predictable because I mean, I as you've have mentioned your

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practice has been firmly planted in the digital

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domain for quite some time. In fact,

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that was nice to see that

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in your home studio, you don't actually have a keyboard

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like a musical keyboard attached to your computer when you're composing

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your mind somehow

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connect directly to the score on the screen.

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Has that family familiarity with digital as a production environment

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made it any easier to adjust digital

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as a distribution medium for your records for your work.

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Well, I have a kind of strange relationship. I think we've digital same

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degeneration, which really struggles

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the early home computers.

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And so,

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you know, I was

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I would you wanna me about course exactly Yeah. But, you know, I was ...in terms of music codes in a case musician first, then there was some

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electronics that I was aware of grown up in She in the

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in the seventies where these things were just starting to make the way into

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people's houses and musicians. And then obviously, in the eighties that the the home computer started, and and then I really began making music professionally because of digital

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technology, which was the

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Sample and the atari games computer, which the time the only computer you connect a Sample two because Apple

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wouldn't allow

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any music or apple the label the beatles label would not allow any music

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to be used on the Apple computer for some reason.

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But of

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working. So I had a lot against confusion sample, and

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I've always had

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I've been very grateful for I you know, always have a fascination with sound and what digital enables you to do

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with it and the trust transform ability of sound,

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which is a lot easier in digital technology than

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technology,

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but I've always kind of tried to keep digital technology here a kind of arms distance from how I operate in that

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so much of the digital platforms have rhythm a certain logic

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of so your your meta swap within

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the

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different,

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you know, workspace that the digital

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the towards workstation has. So

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it's not free like a piece of paper. You're very much a down certain routes, for example,

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time, you know, as

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January is graded,

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which is something I kind of resisted in my own music. I like I don't think,

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you know, that's how we perceive time as, you know, human beings. So

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so

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I used this tool, and but until now, I've always felt like I use it. It's ten percent of voice capable that.

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I mean, as the distribution,

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you know, obviously, the major part of digital distribution is using social media, which again,

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i'm a slightly bad generation that

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isn't so I'm not as proactive in terms of advertising what I do and the there's a certain performance quality I'm realized with social media,

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which

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isn't something that I

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engage in that much. So

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which you know, assumption I'm still exploring how you can present yourself on

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in the digital world, which is what it is. I mean, you know, the people who seem to be

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very successful, You know, I've they've got a big presence from what they did prior to the Internet, and it's kinda carried with them into it. Certainly a lot of big bands you know, kind of happen to make it before the Internet came and fragmented musical retention

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or, you know, they're very good at performing.

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I can add

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you know, at an avatar online is a a someone that's a purpose of part of themselves, If not themselves.

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And I don't fit either those cat agrees. So I'm I'm working out the best way.

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I mean, during lockdown, this a platform. I don't that's anyone that called bank camp, which is a way that

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musician

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the, you know, fans of different

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musicians or labels can buy direct of ...like

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like spent far too much. I think a lot of people did for a while lockdown down.

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Me, and

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and so overlap down, you know, Again, there was this weird thing where people from more around the world were buying music,

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you know, And the music was getting manufactured. I reduced four records over lot though up to now, and

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then the ...the the ...again, strange process where the music would be finished in lots of different reasons

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some art would would be done in the eye of why the music would come from side of France.

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It would all come together somewhere

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and be sent to a manufacturing

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plant that eventually one of them, for example, was important another within the czech Republic,

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and you'd get this these boxes of stuff in material form shipped back to you.

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And from there, then you ship them out again to all corners of the world,

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which was, you know, it's it's really nice And not people email you and your kind of ...your

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kind of faith in humankind is

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is is, you know, really

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reinforced because there is this ...you know, Jeremy people ready nice and people,

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for example, we'll pay more money than you ask, You know, which is

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something that I was

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and, you know, touch by, and

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that's when you're studying a record, for example.

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...Yeah.

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You want to ...you want to help musicians..

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Well, Yeah. Unfortunately, you know, I think like Spotify and a lot of the judicial platforms are built on different

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models, which is really still the dominant distribution method. You know? So

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i mean, and it's interesting that Bank camp even though it did well.

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Up to lockdown down here in Britain because of brexit,

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there's suddenly no one buys in Europe.

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Anything else ...at

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least me direct and i think talking to people,

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is because nowadays is obviously

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import Duties and paperwork that has to be filled in

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and people just don't wanna do it. So, you know, literally overnight

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after brexit, the

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that kind of

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connection direct with people who were were buying off you as you, you know, distributing your work on on the Internet just this is dried up. So, again,

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I think the times are in feel like,

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there's gonna be lots of these stops and starts. I don't think anything gonna settle into a pattern that you can

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so this is gonna be it for the next two years.

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So i'm I'm kinda prepared for that. So, you know, now gonna think of another way you've connecting to

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the audience which is out there,

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which is ...yeah.

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What you've been wanna, you know, what you what we're discussing tonight.

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Boom.

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Pull in the age of netflix

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when

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you know, the quality of the stuff that we get

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come down the pipe is actually

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pretty good, most of the time. Or, in if taste

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notwithstanding,

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And, of course, we've moved on from

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getting

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dvds

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by mail,

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to direct digital distribution.

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How does that work for individual

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independent

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theater companies and and, you know, other

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performing artists.

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How ...where you fit into this?

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Oh, boy, it's hard to say.

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I would say this that

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our audience

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before the pandemic was connected to us through social media.

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So that's how we communicated to them that we were having a performance

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So they were already

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one foot in the door.

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And

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when we switched to digital,

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we were just removing the

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the trip to the theater. In fact.

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And so I think that in fact, we've only

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we've moved sideways

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in terms of our

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established audience.

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But

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on the other hand, we've

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we've moved global

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included a whole new audience that we never knew was possible.

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And part of that, for example, is that when we started as the theater

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I reached out to a lot of my contacts from the past, and in the past, I used to run a theater festival in New York City.

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Called underground zero.

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And this was an enormous undertaking with very small budgets where we were trying to have an international

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experimental live arts festival in New York, and you can imagine the nightmare of the logistics of that of trying to get visas for people and trying to organize organized planes and transportation

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and housing and all the rest ...this is a gigantic

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logistical

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enterprise.

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And with El dorado and working in a digital

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space, it became instantly possible to have all of those people that you wanted to work with.

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Without the logistics.

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And so what that really opened up for us,

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and I think this also

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opened up for our audience was the opportunity to spend a lot of time

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talking to the artist that we wanted to work with collaborating digitally on projects we wanted to make together and then executing them all virtually

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And for me as

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as an artist, but also as an organizer, I find to be a much deeper and richer experience.

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Because in the past in New York,

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you know ...you'd have a you'd be doing things a few times through email, and then you'd only have a short amount of time when they were present in the city to collaborate with them to talk with them and to spend time, and there was never enough time.

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And here time

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in this medium is

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it allows you to stretch time,

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especially on the on the production side of it, but not only through execution and also through gradual and then distribution over time,

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everything is stretched now, and I think this is the for me, the biggest takeaway of it.

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This is the creative form, and we are talking to

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composer adrian Cooker and theater director for.

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About the challenges and opportunities of the digital

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environment for artists

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it's all well and good.

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You're talking about the practice of art.

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And, of course,

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some of us do it behind closed doors

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others do it in front of people and get a more immediate reaction But, ultimately, how do you know your stuff is any good

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unless you bounce it of people

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what has been the

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general reaction

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to

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your your digital efforts,

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How has that worked?

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Well, of course, it's it's really hard to measure it in the way that we're used to

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when

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you make work in the room and it's live, you know right away,

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how it's landing

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and the audience you can feel what the audience is feeling. And, of course, there's lots of other ways that they'll tell you, they'll come up to you right away and tell you how they felt about it or

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you'll hear the laugh or

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make noise during the show. And so you have that instant feedback,

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and

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you really denied that

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in the digital room.

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So feedback comes comes to you

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and and any terms of measure of success comes to you and

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so strangely digital filtered way. And like people make comments or

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occasionally, you'll get an email afterward,

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But I have to say that it it feels like it's been

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more reduced down to data.

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And

...

so

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what we found ourselves to doing is looking looking at

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the views and for how long

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did people watch,

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and

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when you start measuring those numbers,

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I think that I was ...I can say that I was quite quite happily surprised that we were able to reach

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an audience that was bigger than the audience we've been reaching in in live format

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for

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longer engagements

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sometimes,

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but also just in terms of the total numbers of it, and also be just ask geek artist is Geek. And and and then as I said before, it's also about time because

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the the the project still exists online, and people keep coming to visit it. And I'm I'm really shocked. Like as a was a slow, but steady stream of people every month come and watch stuff.

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And at the moment, we're not producing anything, we're getting ready to start.

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But for the last six months, we've been dark,

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and as we're gearing up now, I'm just going back looking back through the numbers, and i'm from really happily, surprised people are still coming in from all over the world.

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This is a polish

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almost all the work we did was polish in Polish, which is a very small language in terms of global understanding.

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And

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over the time that we've been up

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only about sixty percent of our traffic has come from Poland.

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I means, forty percent of it is is from out in the world.

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And, of course, some of the stuff we're doing is dance, so there is no language barrier

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also some music, also some experimental films. So there's different things we're doing,

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and there's an audience out there

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that is coming

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But

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but the question of how you translate,

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the intimacy

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of

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a live performance

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into the digital environment, of course, is

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something that weighs heavily on

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the shoulders

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of

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every position. I talked to

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Is it even possible?

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Or are we asking their wrong questions? Should we not be trying to

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translate

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the intimacy

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of a life performance in a theater or a music hall

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or a club

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into digital, but should we in fact, be thinking about ways

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to

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push the

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boundaries of the digital environment in such ways that actually we create

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layers of int.

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With the audience that was simply not possible

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for what do you think?

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Adrian and Paul? Who wants to go

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I mean, I think,

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you know, as I said,

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I mean, I do love, you know, rooms as in particular acoustic music music.

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Strings, you know, any ensemble,

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really, you have to be in a room, and a lot of the music that I love is really about that room and the place where it's created.

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And but you're right. I think that, you know, now

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that's difficult, And I don't know whether the people just wanna see a room

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with a a rep a replication

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of you know, a piece that you can see and you can hear through speakers, but you're not in the space. So

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I mean, again, this Japanese project, we're just working on,

...

it is a piece for string ensemble or that is live processed with compute software program by the Japanese composer,

...

and

...

we ...we ...so we were gonna do a live

...

from From Tokyo

...

for when the Album is launched in May.

...

We just decided

...

besides the primitive

...

nature of the cost of doing it, getting all these players into one space in Tokyo.

...

It was also kind of a little boring and, you know, what you're saying and, you know, what I've been

...

talking about a little bit. How you maybe can't push the the medium to do something different. So

...

what we've ended up doing or talking of doing at the moment is

...

we're gonna have musicians in Japan and the musicians that I know in Europe

...

and different countries in Europe and at some in the Uk,

...

and we're gonna set up like a monthly,

...

almost

...

like, sal on where the composer will

...

in this case, it be talking at Watson the Japanese composer will come up with.

...

He's gonna code write some code.

...

Which is used on the album. So it's not written already ring,

...

and he's going to write some natural

...

convection united school, which she's gonna give to some resistance in Japan get some musicians

...

that I'll coordinate around Europe.

...

And then

...

all this music will be kind of rational

...

through the compute processing in,

...

And

...

we're gonna somehow do it live. It won't be

...

stream, but there will be a duration to the piece. There'll will be a start middle in an end,

...

and there'll be a visual can't point to it as well. And so the whole thing will be edited, but, again, not in a

...

in a performance trying to show a performance some thing that will

...

be less linear and we're still exploring what that might be. So ...yeah.

...

I think for me at least, you know,

...

that is the goal to try and find some

...

different

...

formats

...

that this

...

this digital tool technology in this kind of area which started

...

enables.

...

Yeah.

...

Well,

...

this services is that

...

the the moment or the opportunity for an elegant

...

segue.

...

To

...

invite some of our listeners to

...

pipe in with their questions and comments and

...

way in with ideas already whatever you like because, of course, this is

...

talk radio three point

...

and we are taking a well established format

...

and regulating it,

...

renewing it.

...

In the digital environment. And

...

everyone I've spoken to on

...

on the app,

...

lot of the creators

...

have high hopes for it in particular that the founders will manage somehow to

...

strike the right balance of high quality programming

...

and accessibility in popularity.

...

So now

...

there's being a first background.

...

Well, suddenly my first bedroom,

...

I need to

...

ask for some guidance from the audience as to how do I

...

get you guys

...

up here?

...

Talk. I think ...let's

...

start with pressing a button.

...

And I think, okay, Jimmy,

...

and it's your turn,

...

and I'm going to press the invite on stage, button how good is that?

...

Some of the other folks we've been

...

patiently hanging on

...

the nicole

...

And please don't feel that this is pressure to actually

...

immediately start spotting a radio quality at dialogue.

...

And Randall, if I may ...you've

...

been sitting here for for a while listening. Thank you.

...

These don't feel pressured into into

...

starting a

...

anything by way of

...

an angle or a perspective. But

...

while we're waiting for

...

these humans to to come on.

...

An angle that

...

Fortunately,

...

cannot

...

it does not escape me, and I'm sure it does not escape

...

most of us

...

is that

...

while the digital world is moving on with

...

Greg Gust, and at speed,

...

artists who can't access digital tools

...

or not as many digital tools or not as easily

...

Will be by definition

...

included.

...

And this idea of the digital divide is, of course,

...

something that many people are

...

keen to

...

keen to discuss.

...

And this is digital divide,

...

Sandra,

...

welcome

...

I'll pull up on stage because we're at that

...

that moment in the paragraph.

...

And

...

and sarah, I may

...

The digital divide is something that

...

pains

...

many artists

...

at least most of the time,

...

because,, of course, these are people who carry the

...

their hearts on this sleeves and that the empathy is something that

...

they used as a source for inspiration inspiration as fuel and fuel

...

rather than something.

...

To to run away from

...

Paul, Adrian, I don't know how you guys feel about this, but

...

somehow,

...

this democrat process

...

that we are seeing

...

is also laced with

...

what's changed with a sort of a note of of

...

sadness that,

...

at least for the time being

...

it can't be

...

access, but by as many humans,

...

humans as we would like it to be,

...

Oh..

...

Yeah. I I've course that

...

I think that

...

the situation we're in is is is also that

...

as

...

speaking for from myself is that we're we're in the two divides that are happening. So there's the Covid divide, and there's the digital divide

...

And the Covid has fed, the digital will provide profoundly.

...

But it's also been the divide

...

between

...

for for for for me

...

between the the live experience

...

and my audience

...

and

...

I I have to say we've all shed some did or bitter tears about that.

...

But the decision was made to

...

okay. This is a new medium, and we have to embrace it

...

and

...

lo and behold,

...

embracing this new medium and and

...

saying could goodbye, basically, to the live experience as we know it. Because for my opinion,

...

there is no replicating the live experience through digital media. It's just not possible.

...

It's not for me, it's not even really worth

...

considering because you just end to ...as I said, you'll end up in tears about it.

...

What it is is it's own medium,

...

and

...

it's a visual one,

...

and it's it's a global one.

...

And it it's full of all sorts of other things that

...

the live arts cannot be or and and could never be

...

But as it also expands, and we're talking about digital divide,

...

yeah., this is a

...

this is becoming more and more of an issue that I hear

...

in lots of the meetings that I'm taking placing in some of the networks that that belong to.

...

Is that it's it's shown

...

quite quite clearly who has and who does not.

...

And

...

but the problem is is that those who do not have access are totally invisible,

...

and there's really no way for them to join the party.

...

Mean this whole swath of the earth, which just don't have access or or have Internet, which is

...

censored

...

I was really moved listening to

...

the first

...

broadcast

...

that

...

the club house that were happening in in Hong Kong.

...

And where the first time that that people from Mainland China were able to sneak in the back door and have conversations with people outside.

...

And you just imagine. Well, I put pride to that quick. Yeah. They put an end of that very quickly, but that just ...that it provided a glimpse of this, you know, vast multitude of people out there who just are not connected and cannot be in the way that I think we take for granted

...

Sandra, Lily, would you like to pipe in with

...

comments on the the digital environment and

...

artist place in it.

...

I can you hear me?

...

Also. Well ...I thank you for inviting me to chat with you I ...I've not heard the entirety of the conversation.

...

But I can tell you just from my personal experience, I've been in entertainment for you know, the last thirty years or so. And

...

when I

...

originally like, in Mark,

...

So this is an old an an odd photo of of viewers. No. Look like that.

...

Not early while right then. Yeah. No. My sister and I were of star search. That's how old I am

...

well,.

...

So what what I experienced back in March of, you know, twenty twenty was you know, a real call passion for a lot of

...

in my field, it would been dance. And and that was really because

...

how do you try template that into the digital

...

space

...

where people

...

can still feel the same kind of emotion.

...

You know, that's not coming from an in person experience, and

...

and a lot of

...

people that I know were trying to figure out how to

...

you know, really transport their business model over, you know, into some sort of digital space.

...

And what I found,

...

I was doing a lot of I lives at the time is that

...

fitness

...

had been

...

transporting

...

their

...

their business model for years in a different way that than dance had ever done.

...

And that, you know, you probably have seen them, you know, from fitness

...

Vhs

...

cassette, you know, two Dvds

...

to, you know,

...

go for the garden go from the you on.

...

But them Right.

...

And so it's this ...it was this weird kind of moment right. Was thinking about it really loved and hard that, like, you know, the performing arts has not had an enough opportunity or at least not seized on the opportunity to transform the way that that the medium is

...

delivered

...

in a way that fitness has, and and a lot of others shot, and there's like music, obviously,

...

we had an easy time listening to this whole time

...

digitally

...

because it, you know, has been transformed over time as far as delivery methods. But in person concert experience like he was just saying, you know, like, how are we going to ...I

...

think,

...

give an experience

...

like that in a digital space

...

where

...

you have

...

similar experiences because like, you said ...it's not the same experience.

...

And so just from my conversations in this, you know, in the arts industry, I think that the that there's this weird

...

kind of

...

acknowledgement

...

that it will never be the same

...

at the same time. I think that there's there's a lot of people in, like, the academic sphere that are doing things with ...with my digital technology and and in the movie industry where, you know, using green screen and motion capture and video games and all of that to,

...

you know, really transform

...

how

...

dance and and, you know, movements an artist that way is captured so that in some way, there's some sort of realistic

...

delivery of it. I think that there's one way that people will start to experience it a little bit more enough dog reality portion of it.

...

But then again, like, the gentleman said earlier, there's a lot of access that's limited

...

to those kinds of devices.

...

I'm done.

...

Yeah.

...

That's all well and good trying to do it, but, of course,

...

takes

...

sensitive heart and I

...

to

...

on the part of the the the the human behind a camera to capture

...

dance.

...

It is just ...I don't know it's probably the most difficult of the performing arts to actually

...

a way that goes anywhere near the level of of expression that you wanted to

...

Just ...I mean, that means dollars that mean to clear.

...

Okay. The gear is getting cheaper, but it still means dollars in terms of of the space and, it still means

...

a number of humans behind

...

even if these are, you know, I found ...I mean, you know,

...

perfect. Good video with americans, of course.

...

But

...

how do you ...while

...

it is certainly being, you know, democracy, how do you continue down that path?

...

Of making it

...

accessible

...

for consumption and for production, This is

...

This is one vector of of a conversation

...

the other vector, of course, is

...

subjective quality.

...

And that's something that we'll never be able to get away from,

...

and I'm not talking about

...

taste because it's something else, but

...

the quality of of production quality of delivery.

...

Paul you have been experimenting with

...

these tools with these

...

modalities if you will,

...

for the last heavily experimenting for the last year,

...

if there are takeaways,

...

for people who

...

would like

...

to

...

go down the path of

...

creating

...

a piece of video about a piece of theater.

...

What might they be?

...

I think the most important takeaway

...

from my point of view is that

...

when you transfer transform from from the live art,

...

low modality to a digital one.

...

What you're doing is is you're switching into a medium, which is

...

almost entirely visual.

...

So

...

of course, when you go to the theater and you watch a performance, of course, it's very visual.

...

But

...

there's an enormous part of that experience which is happening, which is invisible,

...

which is

...

biochemical,

...

which is

...

emotional,

...

which only comes from the fact that people are sitting there in the same room together.

...

So

...

if you say well, that's

...

maybe a a live performance is something like

...

thirty or forty percent visual and sixty percent

...

family.

...

Well, in in digital,

...

this is completely reversed.

...

So it becomes almost entirely a visual experience.

...

At least that's how I'm experiencing it as is as a director.

...

So then when you approach

...

say, programming dance

...

and or programming

...

a live event.

...

You've changed my perspective and thinking about

...

how important the visual is and and to allow the visual element of what you're making

...

to take over in places that

...

you would use other methods in another ways.

...

So

...

that also meant that you must must approach this with the highest quality

...

input as that you can.

...

And we were very blessed when we were making our

...

our our last season

...

by having access to that kind of equipment. So working with

...

a Dj

...

Mean, the Dj in the controlled environment where we control the lighting where we control the sound and had sounded at a very high level.

...

And that we were able to have visual image at a very high level, then we were also able to have a digital wall

...

behind the performances. And so he was able to do live

...

Dj mixing

...

with almost all of the different

...

work that we did. So either with dance or with life performance are also with some other stuff we did. And I think this is also critical

...

that that if visual

...

and, of course, sound are so critical.

...

You must must have the highest quality. If you don't,

...

you you will never even come close to what your your hoping to achieve.

...

Ultimately

...

sing as

...

everyone's a broadcast professional now

...

is against

...

everybody and it's of competition in a sort of a nasty,

...

you know, dog dog

...

way. It is simply a matter of fact that we all have twenty four hours in a day.

...

And we have work and sleep.

...

All the other things that we have to do so the amount of time left for consumption of

...

at performing out or or or or anything

...

else

...

down that path is is fairly limited.

...

Adrian, if I may just come back to you, swing back, if I will,

...

for a moment.

...

This idea of

...

competing against everyone is

...

somehow different in the context.

...

Of

...

music

...

that are

...

very narrowly defined as

...

not generally defined into integrative terms, but in audience terms as

...

written for people who appreciate

...

music that hasn't been played

...

before If.

...

You can see where I'm going with this.

...

So you you'll now have a situation where

...

technically, you have a a a fairly ...not only defined audience, but this audience is now

...

everywhere. So we are now coming back with the question of how do you

...

find these humans

...

to listen to you to just

...

What have been some of your successes?

...

Well, you know, I think obviously music is

...

very

...

well

...

and unlike some of these other art forms smartphones forms, you know, people have

...

generally access

...

to making the music, you know, audio your workstations of those cheap and the programs are on most laptops know.

...

So the this kind of ...you know, you're right. I think ...when

...

I started making music in London in the nineties, it was very much a geographic space. There was a scene going on in one part of London, as a scene gun there Manchester.

...

And

...

and, again, one of these scene from blow up and would become international,

...

whereas now there is no geographic

...

sense. There's no feels like this no Tool in the nineties or no manchester in the eighties or ...and

...

so

...

what you find is there's like a a network

...

of of musicians and people who listen to music and or involved with the scene, but the connect

...

all across the globe. And,

...

you know, obviously, a lot of these music scenes that I'm involved in are quite self supported

...

you know, they ...they're

...

very much

...

people

...

support each other very and have over lot don't,

...

and context of contacting

...

to more contacts.

...

And so

...

I mean, I think ...but

...

generally for us, we we ...you know, for me, I put out music and the music go through some thirty traditional distribution methods in but I have a distributor that, you know, ships music out into different parts of the world if it's physical,

...

so it can be bought in a shopping if it would be a male or a shop recently.

...

There is

...

a press, which is still

...

I mean, obviously, the you know, the Internet

...

is ...there'll

...

there'll be a time where again, the would be very

...

specific to different countries, but other than linguistic issues,

...

weeks shop you have translation

...

apps on most

...

computers know? So that becomes less of an issue.

...

You know, I'm currently working on press Japan, and

...

I've never been and this is all three connections

...

of the composer that I'm currently working with.

...

So

...

it feels like kind of I always kind of like the organic quality of it. I mean, I guess you can be more aggressive than, you know.

...

Be much more adept that have social media

...

kind of encourages, which I said he's like, you know, competing for eyeballs competing for, like

...

but quite often the stuff that I mean I don't think really

...

works

...

through that kind of filter.

...

So

...

I go to slow

...

organic

...

connection

...

which sometimes is through, you know, digital

...

medium, sometimes you old school

...

person to person connection.

...

Yeah. But it's still an ongoing process. A lot of this for me, it's it's it's, you know, I don't have any clear.

...

Clear

...

directions and just, you know, see happens next.

...

No. We're all. We're all

...

very much learning at the bleeding edge of

...

of this thing.

...

Sandra, have you

...

seen any

...

particularly good examples that you might care to share of

...

of

...

dance work being

...

shot without without it being, you know, a high production,

...

but it being shot well,

...

although simply,

...

and distributed well to an audience that is

...

appreciative

...

regardless of of geography.

...

Well, I feel like the last part was like, your your lynch been there, like, it regardless jealousy. I don't know. I think that.

...

The.

...

Isn't it even possible? Or I mean that the or is a connection with? I mean, we're not talking Russian, but, like, normal people doing normal performances

...

is it even

...

possible to have have a connection with artists who are, you know, halfway around the world, and I'm not talking about pop. You know?

...

I think that there's

...

there is it's a it's a possibility

...

obviously, for people to connect, and that that's just the nature of being able to get on the zoom. You know? What Mean? But I think the delivery is the issue. When you talk about access because

...

what I am streaming on here in La is not out the same. You know, like, if I shot something and I wanted to have somebody don't see it on the other side of the world, whatever access they have to it's coming through their screen is different.

...

It might be better. You know? Like, I I you know, have seen way out

...

Internet speeds in Japan that I, you know, that I have here. So

...

it really just depends on the quality of what's come things through, not necessarily the quality of what you're sending. I feel like there's another issue.

...

What I'm forgetting with so what I think it was Paul who had mentioned,

...

you know, having a ...somebody

...

with some sort of visual

...

I for what to even be, you know, filming in order to have that kind of

...

experience on the other end of it. And it reminded me I used to work for

...

the Excel. I don't know if you know what that is, but it with the first iteration of the

...

Wwe

...

experiment with football,

...

and

...

what they developed

...

in it the first iteration was this camera technology,

...

where they use these, like,

...

wires above the stadium.

...

To capture the overhead versions of all of the plays that we're being called.

...

And,

...

you know, obviously, the Died and then was

...

you know, reinvigorated recently and then died again.

...

But they kept that kind of technology, which is why, you know, you see that in the end I found that the like, hovering cans that, you know, chris cross around the arena,

...

and that's the kind of stuff that I've feel like, you know, we've went through this kind of digital

...

evolution of, like, seven thousand percent in, you know, nine months because everybody needed to have touch payments and, you know, super eats and all of that.

...

And I feel like the acceleration of the text knowledge that's readily available for

...

people to use to capture,

...

you know, performing arts in the best way is not readily available yet. Like, obviously,

...

we we all have our iphones. We all have, you know, our

...

circle lights, you know, set up on our our desktops, but

...

the the movement

...

technology, you know, of a steady can, like, you still have, like, that's like ridiculous to buy, like,,

...

like, on a home

...

on a home level.

...

Never mind. Never mind the years of students like you learn to do with program Right? Exactly. And and really, the choreography that's needed, you know, from from a director standpoint, you're not just calling shots, like, your you're making pathways, and you're moving through different lanes, you know, travel to make sure that you're getting things that shot so that you can morph into tune whatever your next shot is, like, like, it's a ...it's a definite series of choreography. So to your point, is has somebody does something that's been readily available for people to see at a good,

...

you know, quality and been delivered across the world maybe Tyler Peck?

...

She's been on

...

the Instagram every single day teaching Belly Bar, and she puts some together with

...

some dancers

...

I think across the globe,

...

that is

...

is the unique kind of one off. I don't know that we'll do that all the time will be in person, you know, hopefully relatively soon.

...

But she has the reach to do something like that with her you know, vaglio background

...

to pull into her bag of tricks and say, you know, I I would like to work with these people.

...

And and be able to kill that off. Now if you ...does everyone have that kind of access

...

to, you know, people that we all want to see, probably not

...

But I I feel like people

...

wanting to create

...

has not stopped, and that's probably the best thing that's come of all of this is that

...

we all have, you know, and some or another as creators

...

have found a way to t the work.

...

So makes sense.

...

It makes perfect sense continuing the the wife seems to be

...

central

...

idea for all musicians and

...

So I've I've been speaking to

...

months it hasn't really. And

...

doubt that passion if you will.

...

And if anything, I've

...

more

...

determined

...

to

...

Living rooms of of people.

...

Do,

...

Paul, Adrian,

...

any

...

any closing words?

...

For us because we are coming

...

to at the end of this chat.

...

I I I I have been in so many

...

Zoom

...

meetings of late, and

...

I

...

I think it's also important to talk about that

...

that

...

that has created a new kind of intimacy vivid that I I'm surprised.

...

It's ...I think we're getting used to it.

...

And I'm I I think my my final thought is what's going to happen?

...

In that golden future, which I'm afraid to even say loud when Covid is behind us.

...

What will we do then?

...

And what

...

what part of our of our work will continue in the digital realm.

...

Where we ...when we leave it entirely, will we continue with it,

...

we'll zoom and tele

...

and this

...

this way of being

...

continue to evolve in the

...

lightning fast way that it is now.

...

I think that's my my my question for

...

that and and take away is what's next.

...

Yeah. Never mind there are new ways of funding art with

...

place and

...

other

...

such mechanisms we will discuss on one of the

...

programs.

...

But yeah, then you're normal. What is then you're normal going to be in a year's time

...

when we are actually able to sit

...

at

...

Club and listen to

...

Just combo to that thing, Adrian.

...

Yeah. I mean nothing for me, one of the interesting things

...

is how people

...

might organize

...

using the Internet but then to go forward at

...

outside and thrilled economically. So, for example,

...

been here in a a a writer or I think called Matt dry hears, two rights quite a bit and talks quite on

...

music

...

we'll have math on in one of the upcoming problems. Yeah. Is very interesting in thinker, and

...

he is talking about a return to the guild almost where

...

you know, these self supporting networks that I talk about of how musicians would be supporting and helping each other through this time.

...

You know, maybe ...and

...

these very separated

...

network sometimes geographically thousand miles apart, different nodes in these networks,

...

can they be brought together in some sort of economic order

...

where, you know, people work together cooperate together

...

through these

...

network that have grown up

...

and become self sustaining economically.

...

For me, that's something that I'm

...

interested in and how that might

...

play out in next year or to

...

I dare i this

...

is going to be the subject.

...

Text the subject for the next

...

creative from

...

because the economics of

...

music and performance

...

are changing and your new tools are coming on board.

...

And indeed, are we going to to see a

...

hands of jazz players? I don't know.

...

We'll have to talk about that.

...

This has been the creative farm.

...

I'm ralph Cannot and my guests were paul and Edwin Coca.

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And as we have just decided, we will see you next week same time.

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Same station always wanted to say that

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with more of the creative fun where we planned creative ideas

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and see what comes up.

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Thank you, Adrian. Thank you, Paul, and thank you to everyone who's stuck with us for the.

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I hope you've enjoyed it, and we will see you again next week.

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Thank you. Thanks, ralph.

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Thanks, Bro.

Fortune Cookie