The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

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Transcript

...

Okay..

...

Well,

...

seems like an apt moment two one

...

You they wait about wait spot,

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and

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start us on

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to nice episode of the the creative farm, and this is the creative farm.

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My name is Ralph.

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We are talking.

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About

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planting ideas in that fertile ground where art and business meet. Or should.

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And

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we

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see what what may come up

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tonight, we are talking again to composer

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Poker coming in from London.

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And there director Paul

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on the floor as we used to say

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from Or.

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Welcome again. Gentlemen.

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Hello

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Hi there.,

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all our audio is is is sorted.

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Before we get into it, I'm plugging

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all the assorted

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adapters into the in the into the respective

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receptacle and hoping that

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I'm coming

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coming through loud and clear, and welcome

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Tom, and

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and other other guests

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the conversation

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tonight is again, about the ways a means in which

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artists can find new ways to build revenue

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and presence

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if you will in this

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new digital reality in which we all now

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are submerged

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while at the same time, offering

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the world of business

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pointers on

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how to get past its current

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terminal crisis of imagination

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artists

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by definition

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thrive on change,

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change is fuel novelty

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is a commission to act, and the other way is to continually

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explore

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in order to build.

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And and if there is one request that artists

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love

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it's taken me where I haven't been.

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And in that sense, artists have always been trail lasers with the rest of society, maybe

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catching on some time

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or later.

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Adrian Paul, welcome again to the creative farm.

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And let's start with the big question.

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Can business learn from the world of art,

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If so,

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where can or it

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begin?

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Yes. Well,

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I mean, one of the things that's been on my mind

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today and it's because there's

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a lot of noise coming out in the Uk about this

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is

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about how music is currently

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operates in terms of the streaming platforms that now make up most of the way people,

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you know, consuming listen into music

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And

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you know, I've not been a fan of ...I mean, the technology itself is fine, like, a lot of technology it's a tool that allows,

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you know, more more music to be so. It's more people, which has got a good thing. But

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at the moment,

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you know, you talk about business

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learning from art. There seems to be a battle in the Uk. Between

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artists you're finally realizing the the business the the tech companies built

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the platforms on top of

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is kind of rotten and, you know, the

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group, you know, the resort into the same tactics that currently in the news in the Uk

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one of our beloved acts prime David Cameron court lobbying,

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a government for company for government bay.

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And so, like, there is campaigns, basically to just reveal

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how we negatives

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the

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original music in

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was in terms of the contracts that have become normalized.

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So, you know, at the moment, I'm feeling that the business world

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is, like, potentially heading towards a little bit of a battle with the artists

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at at least in my world, which

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the world's I operate in which,

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you know, the commercial music industry amongst others, but ...so

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whether they'll learn then I don't know. But there is definitely ...you know, first time in my life is as a musician fashion musician, Which goes back to nineteen

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ninety five when I released I think my first

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fashion recording,

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there is a growing in ...I

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mean, I guess, you could call ...I mean, you not, union is not the right word because we've got different tools now. We've got social media,

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and we've got the networks that we can through those that we can then, you know,

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use to turn on some of these large be corporations

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So, yeah, that's my thoughts.

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But today from where I'm sitting in London,

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but, yeah,

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Paul, what do you think?

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I'd like to tell you a story.

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About

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business in the arts.

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So

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I used to live in New York City.

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And I ran an independent theater company and

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an independent theater festival as well,

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and it was all work in no pay.

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And in order to live,

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I was a temp,

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and

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I tempted it

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for about fifteen years.

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Through mostly Fortune five hundred companies.

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And basically, I was an executive,

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what they call an executive assistant.

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And so generally, I was assisting,

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you know, very high level senior management people and in big companies.

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And

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one day, I found myself

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sent on

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assignments to

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a large

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I won't say the name, but a very large cosmetics company.

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And I ended up going to work for

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a senior vice president

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in the packaging department.

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And this gentleman was responsible for innovation and packaging.

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And I have to say that this guy was probably the most imaginative and creative person

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that I met in my entire time there, and I worked there for about seven years.

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And I got to know just about all of the senior management of this company

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And

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the thing that was remarkable about this guy, and really, he was, like, one in a million

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in all my career

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his attempt I never met anyone like him.

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He was profoundly and seriously interested in the arts.

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And he very much appreciated the fact that I was working for him

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because I was an artist.

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And he knew that as long as I was there in the office, I was his,

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and he knew that afterwards, I would run down town and go to rehearsal and do whatever else I was gonna do in my artistic life.

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And believe it or not, this guy who was deep in the deep

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depth of the packaging world. We would sit together and talk about Shakespeare,

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and we'll talk about

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romantic poetry, which about music, and he would go out. Sometimes we would go for walks, and we would go to visit museums, and he was constantly

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interested in thinking about and talking about the arts.

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And he was also

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the most cutting edge innovator in the company in terms of technology in terms of cost savings,

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but we've very rarely talked about those things. He only wanted to talk about the arts.

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And from my point of view,

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it was this attitude and this skin to meet him in incredible businessman.

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He really ...he was really ...they're always talking about how do you teach creativity?

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Well,

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his idea was that, why don't you just go expose yourself on every way possible to the arts That's for creativity is?

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And

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learn from it and experience it in a deep way.

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There isn't a one to one. You don't go see a play and think, oh, no. I have a great packaging idea. It doesn't work like that. It's it's more of an attitude in a way of thinking and seeing

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that he gained by immerse himself in in arts and culture.

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So I would think that that is the way

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be my one piece of advice

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if you're in the business world and you want to

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start to understand and think in creative ways

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jump in the art pool in whatever way you can in museums, go to the theater, listen to music.

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So this guy evidently

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understood that

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answer

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to what take me what I haven't been lay beyond where he had been.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think I'm well interest me, Out I'll jump in on the packaging team with a slightly lateral comment.

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Interesting. I found out today. I mean, I knew this but I've forgotten that

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the major record labels still actually did dot ten percent.

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From artists royalties for packaging, things that would be broken in transit, even though now there were just no transit.

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It's all done through streaming.

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Anyway, that's my

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just to kind of build,

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you know, aside from your packaging,

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what you're mentioning about the the gentleman who was impatient.

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But I mean, I think you're right. I mean, I think, you know, I mean, as a kind of balance to my

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slightly specific comments about

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the business

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and how it relates to the arts and at least artists been paid.

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I'm ...you know, I'm currently being funded and before lockdown, a gentleman,

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who is a love of the arts and a, you know, particularly music, and who would

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he works in finance, but we have a mutual friend

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interestingly, our mutual friend if you trace it back was a Marxist feminist film director,

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was one of my first

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actually points into writing film music.

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But this gentleman, you know, used to take me out as well.

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A bit like poor story to, you know, our present concerts, you love music, and he was the aware that I was a musician and he was fascinated

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by the world of music.

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Like, I think, a lot of people who aren't in the arts,

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sometimes are and

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he currently is

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invest in my business, which is a small couple of labels that do, you know, they're quite experimental of music that don't

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historically had great market traction. And

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so,

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you know, I guess have to balance to some of my negative comments about some of these corporations that, you know, there are,

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you know, I've discovered just for lockdown. There are people who are prepared to invest money with with potentially very little

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immediate return, you know, just because they understand

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that that the art are in the state of crisis and they ...and and the Covid

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Covid was just

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another,

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you know,

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another kind of element in this ongoing

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crisis that, I guess, the digitization

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of the arts

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has

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revealed

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I mean ...and hopefully now ...I mean, I think I said last time that I was on

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the ...I've discovered new create practices

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that I have discovered using digital technology lockdown down.

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And,

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you know, hopes, I think with

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the right investment,

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and the right support, which doesn't demand a kind of immediate return because a lot of art doesn't have immediate returns. I mean, you know, we ...I ...I recorded a piece of music by a nineteen sixties,

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Avant guard the italian composer called G Chelsea in two twenty sixteen.

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This year

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in the middle of lot rather they're accurate miraculously,

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a director contacted as from Australia. And so we really wanna license this piece of music. To to a film in Australia.

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And, you know, we eventually did that. That took five years

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for that record.

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To generate really any revenue.

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I immediately that shared it with all the participants in it the defeat. And, again, that isn't something that like a major label would do, a major label would go out. Well, you know, we have the coop. So we keep the money until we have, and they make sure you never recoup that money

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So I think, you know, there's interesting new business practices that can be applied as well as creative practices.

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So ...yeah, that's what I'm trying to work on as well as moaning about your old record industry.

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Well, I've got old bonus that?

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Thing.

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What I would really like to consider her is

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how

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the artists

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natural ability to use change as fuel

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can be used to help

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business become more creative and people in business more imaginative.

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What might we need

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to do in order to demonstrate

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that just because you don't have this immediate Roi that you were talk

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can't actually put on the balance sheet next quarter

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that, you know, spent

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two hundred hours in the company of a composer as you was going about his.

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And

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therefore, you made another, you know, two point five billion

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whatever.

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It doesn't quite work like that. The the measures

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are different. They

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the

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are different, and indeed, the assumptions

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beyond which yards to use are different.

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We're talking about

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long term

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development of sensitivities rather than immediate

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Roi.

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What might be the ways

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that artists

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could

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possibly use

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to demonstrate that this is good investment that and not just investment in

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directly in

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purchasing the art commissioning or what have you, but

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investment in the artists as walking brains,

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engaging them as people who think as opposed to merely people who create art

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what would be some of the arguments do you think?

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Well.

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I'm sorry. Cool. You go ahead. Hey. You want to go. Well I charges to it last time. So I you that's just I she.

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Okay.

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I think I think ...I mean,

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rob, this is like the critical question.

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It's a old one.

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We all about critical

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my end,

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I think it has to come back down to to interest and and relationship.

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And

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I think that

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from my point of view, there's been

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a law and there's a ...even ...I would even say profound problem

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is that the arts

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are generally

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appreciated by a small and dwindling group of elderly people.

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In the narrow understanding of the arts as we have had over the

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centuries.

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Right?

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But I think if you go if you go to

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well before the pandemic, if you would go to this theater in New York,

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seventy five percent of the audience was over sixty.

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I mean, there just isn't there just isn't another generation sitting in there.

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There isn't a middle generation, and there's definitely no young people

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or very very few. It's a very small minority.

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And so

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the interest

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in the arts just to begin with is

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extremely narrow.

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And I think that

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this is

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a fundamental

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sort of failure of

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of society to that that this should happen that the arts should not be

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a preserved for a narrow minority of elderly people.

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It should be ...it really should be open and democrat.

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More and more people are be encouraged to go.

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It should be subsidized.

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It should be

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Because I think mister without that, then you don't get the next component, which I think is the one, which is relationships.

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You'll never meet any any artists, and you will never have the opportunity to develop that room.

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You could have the kind of experiences like I had with my former ball.

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Paul having some connectivity issues which does happen, but I think we can pretty much figure out what he was saying.

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I think

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I think

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this sorry situation that Paul has just described is partly

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not exclusively, of course.

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And this is not a

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show on which we write descriptions for the year.

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Over

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the artists

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condition of there. But partly, I think it is about

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the way that

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the arts have been sold and presented

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to generations

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of questions and arts consumers.

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That it is something

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that,

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you know, you do on a special day, perhaps or something where

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it is

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an activity that is apart from the rest of your life as opposed to being a product

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of it.

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And that is, I think, where

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a lot of the issues

...

that that

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we come up against her have came from.

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Some my question is

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how can we in short order

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I know this is very, very difficult, but, you know, what might be the activities that

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artist themselves?

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Could

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engaging to help themselves

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in order to, you know,

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up their revenue and up their presence.

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This

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dwindling economy

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artistic economy

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by offering things that business badly needs

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like creativity, like,

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you know, the

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artistic focus and practice,

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and packaging it up perhaps as a

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consulting product

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rather than simply staying in your studio and creating a thing.

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And then someone comes along it's says this is really nice.

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Here is, you know, ten thousand dollars.

...

Yeah. I think I I agree that there's ...I mean, historically there's been these moments. I mean, they

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tended to

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happen

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you know, for example, Bell the laboratories in America after the Tracker World war. Yes.

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Which obviously, you know, the reason why the sort of initiatives there was other in Europe, like a lot of the guard music

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that it was created

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in in places like,

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people stop hasn't and came through and many other composers from Europe european Oven God. These are funded by the American government. It was all part of

...

this period where after the war a bit like, no, there was a a reset and that they ...you know, there's was a lot of of money government money put into the arts

...

But the butter bar shoes was, obviously, as you ...as people probably know, you know, is a it was a melting pot. So you had you would john Cage, You know, you'd have composers painters, but then there were scientists.

...

And,

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you know, that a lot of

...

you know, innovation

...

came out of that that actually led to you, you know,

...

they they eat the each series, which

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went twenty decades.

...

There's very successfully.

...

So like there's room assumption like that again, but one of the

...

issues that

...

I have at the moment. And, you know, it's it's it's something maybe that is

...

hardly my resistance to some aspects of technology, particularly the

...

way that, you know, the quantification

...

of things tapes,

...

precedence over of them of the qualitative analysis, which is much harder to do.

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Is that, like, you know, when I taught people working technology, they are basically,

...

you know, versed in a very quantitative

...

way of looking at things, which is

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had its advantages, you know, as a friend of my says, you know, he looks a data when you know, you're sending a piece of music out into the world.

...

You know, he's looking at how it's impacting

...

where it's impacting how many people,

...

And, you know, there's something good about that. But I think when that becomes the only

...

yards spec,

...

you have issues, and I sometimes find what I'm talking to,

...

engineers and dates scientists,

...

a qualitative,

...

the the the weird vague

...

lateral minded

...

way that artists work

...

that generates

...

very productive things, but not in linear ways

...

is sometimes it's hard to bridge those worlds.

...

I've had trouble with that, even though I have a mattress respect for a lot of these people

...

it's a very different skill set to what I have.

...

So, you know, I guess,,

...

you know, ralph, maybe you know how how you can bridge

...

those two very different

...

ways of looking at the world.

...

Well,

...

I think we're trying to do it now.

...

I'm trying to do it right now.

...

And,, you know, this series of programs is a isn't attempt.

...

At

...

building a bridge across that.

...

And incidentally, this series of programs is the creative farm

...

And my name is Ralph Hamilton, and I'm talking to

...

Adrian Ko and Paul.

...

Yeah.

...

This idea of immersion is something that

...

artists

...

find

...

so much.

...

Ordinary, and every day, this is

...

artists do.

...

Whereas immersion

...

is something that people in business generally do on, you know,

...

And

...

on the odd occasion where they are able to

...

go deep into a subject or a discipline,

...

Perhaps,

...

perhaps a way to build those videos then might be

...

to expose

...

people in

...

version

...

on the more regular basis.

...

How might we do that?

...

Just pull back with us.

...

I don't know. Poor, are you're with us.

...

Doesn't sound much.

...

What horizontal icon is is not looking to good Oh. Please go ahead. I mean,

...

I was listening to assumption last night, she intrigued me. It was it was

...

describing in how

...

someone who worked for Ebay in America suddenly decided that maybe Google

...

and this advertising strategy of connecting to people, you know, this product that taken over the world. This thing that before was not the main product. It was the secondary

...

think. We were all doing a making things and suddenly,

...

you know, these tech platforms are selling

...

advertising

...

And he decided what does this actually work? And he

...

convinced

...

ebay to like, stop paying for Google

...

advertising for third of America,

...

and they discovered

...

that it made absolutely no difference. I mean, not know this is slightly anecdotal.

...

But I guess, what this

...

says to me is that there are some fundamental things that the Internet is built on, that haven't been proven and that have just been assumed

...

and huge amounts of capital have gone into making those realities

...

and I think if we're gonna bridge new ways of artists

...

and

...

business and science

...

come together,

...

I think we have to rebuild the Internet without going to,

...

you know, kind of grandiose.

...

I think,

...

the way the Internet is currently

...

built is

...

doesn't really work for these things. You know, We have artists. You are exploited by old business models that tech builds on. We have tech using analytics and data

...

to kind of, like, you know, hone

...

home, you know, what they're selling.

...

But one of the things that I found really interested in as well is and I haven't thought this before the Internet as it's

...

currently devised is permanently

...

taking us back into time, things that we have done it is collecting and feeding us back

...

more things based on our past

...

searches

...

or past digital experiences.

...

And a court, which may or may not have anything to do with your future example. Well, I mean, does that really create

...

the platform

...

for innovation.

...

You know, if if the actual

...

architecture is permanently like a pass. It's like a ghost. I think Adam Curtis has described it it's like, you're kind of permanently dealing with the good ghosts of your past, which you're kinda being fed back to you.

...

I mean, I think that that ...I ...it's something that I've only just recently been thinking about, but that me,

...

makes a lot of sense. So I think I've had perhaps in some ways,

...

you know, arts have st.

...

I mean, not you can't say that as a general thing. But certainly the commercial,

...

thing that takes up most people's attention,

...

have st it in in terms of innovation

...

And

...

maybe here's something with the way the Internet is configured that we are permanently being pushed backwards.

...

And

...

so as how you make us move forwards, when we're all digitally connected,

...

I don't know because I'm

...

that's not my skill set but, you know ...Yeah.

...

We're we're forever for trying to walk

...

forward while, having

...

well, much of our vision obstructed by review mirrors

...

of all kinds.

...

And well, Burn, I was gonna say him Bookcase Taylor about. It's so it's a different ten. Training

...

tim is trying to

...

build on certain and certainly advocate advocate for

...

a new Internet Yep. But, you know, this is an example of exactly the kind of thinking that I'm and that I'm ...I'm talking about the you end of this

...

idea of i'm

...

So examination nation from a perspective that doesn't necessarily

...

readily occur

...

to business leaders on a daily basis. They may this out on that, you know,

...

again,

...

during a a creative thinking workshop, and that's all very well. And exciting,

...

but it is hardly enough.

...

It is hardly enough to to bridge that gap.

...

Paul is back with this, I think pull.

...

Yeah. Sorry.

...

The app checked me out. So ...not

...

as all. Well, it isn't beta so, you know, we're all all

...

my

...

falling bit of. Right?

...

It's coming up to the four hours. So I think it might be a really good idea to

...

open up

...

and

...

and

...

invite some of the the the the people so patiently and kindly

...

think to our conversation to come up and

...

maybe throw some new light on the subject of

...

that space where business

...

and

...

and art

...

may or indeed should

...

intersect. Let me just start grab a handful of humans here and

...

invite them to

...

to the stage, Laura. Welcome.

...

Stephanie, it's good to see you again. Let me just

...

button.

...

And

...

tom,

...

You are now ...or should be in should be

...

invited to the stage, so with a bit of luck may hear from from from some of some of them.

...

Now I've lost my audio..

...

Yeah..

...

Oh your here. Okay. Good. No. Very strange. It's i just very very quiet.

...

An interesting thing that occurred to me well,

...

digging into a new

...

a new book that was just recommended

...

recommended

...

to me today,

...

two beats ahead

...

by a chap from the college music and a chat from idea

...

talking about how music

...

influences

...

the creative

...

process

...

regard to me that

...

the business is very fond of

...

celebrating the achievements of great artists, but it is

...

terrified

...

of

...

adopting some of the ideas and approaches

...

of artistic practice.

...

And this is

...

you know, this is happening just a society in general and business in particular

...

suffering this crisis of

...

of imagination and terrible positive of ideas.

...

And indeed, probably the

...

The aspect of it artistic practice, most terrifying

...

to people in businesses the fact that artists do not ask for permission

...

to create.

...

In fact, the very act of not asking for permission

...

is part of artistic practice.

...

Startups are learning from that mindset.

...

But

...

how can we

...

inspire more people like that packaging chat from the very large

...

cosmetics company

...

to try and work with it with that mindset in large companies. How can that

...

can we do that?

...

Yeah

...

That's a an enormous challenge.

...

I just wanted to say, also, you know, that that ...this

...

particular job that I had really exposed me to an entire

...

very big corporation

...

and really,

...

I was constantly

...

introduced

...

as an artist by my boss,

...

and I really don't believe that

...

ninety eight percent of the executives that I met there ever

...

experienced the arts on any kind of normal basis

...

at all.

...

I don't think most of like, on an immediate person to person sort process. I I would say at all,

...

I I met any ...he just wasn't on the on the writer. Wasn't on their radar at all.

...

I would say most of them had never had never been to the theater and they lived in New York. Can imagine?

...

So this is what this is

...

it does happen job beginning of the of the issue.

...

But I think the other ...the the the bigger problem, which is what I think you're pointing at is that

...

one of the the things about about art,

...

is that you you have to be

...

fully embracing of failure.

...

And failure is is the most important

...

teacher.

...

It's the most important way to learn.

...

And it's

...

every every masterpieces is born out of ten thousand failures.

...

That's part of the the ingredient of it. And as ...well, as as as Edison famously, put it, I didn't file nine thousand nine hundred and ninety nine times.

...

I just found nine nine thousand nine hundred and ninety nine times

...

that the experiment didn't work.

...

Exactly. And I think that that ...also

...

having been inside corporate culture for as long as I was, you know, failure

...

is terminal.

...

I mean, if you fail,

...

then you're out, there's always someone ready to take your spot

...

and So so the relationship of the artistic

...

relationship of artistic practice to courage is perhaps something

...

A business might might do well to learn.

...

Well, I think all values, all values are are built on the foundation of courage and without courage, you've got. You've got nothing.

...

I mean, you have to be brave, and you have to be brave enough to fail.

...

And,

...

fail miserably.

...

And,

...

you know, I think the bigger the value of the better

...

but I I I I can't imagine a corporation

...

creating a culture like that, although, maybe they should.

...

Well, they probably have

...

fault except

...

Failure is not

...

is not generally

...

generally

...

it is changing, but it is not

...

generally celebrated as

...

learning process related

...

rather banks did door I added in two thousand and eight you they?

...

Let's you did work away. Went yeah. A good

...

remuneration for that failures.

...

Yeah. Well, this is a different kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly

...

if you fail large enough, of course, nothing will happen.

...

Another interesting

...

and another interesting question that

...

good to me since last Monday.

...

One about focus and

...

and self motivation.

...

They had

...

at the edge of the wedge where,

...

you know, art could get into a.

...

Because

...

now we have a situation where the

...

majority of people in the majority of companies

...

have no interest in returning to full time work.

...

In an office ever again.

...

That they love having an enough to go to, but certainly, you know,

...

lots of research points to people saying, oh, I'll I'll happily work remote.

...

Should we not be looking through the world of art for pointers,

...

how people can get motivated to keep focused?

...

How they can deliver the goods

...

without

...

they you proverbial your middle manager breathing down their neck.

...

Yeah. I mean, I think what I've noticed over lot Dane, slightly

...

I live in my partner in London, and you know, usually, she would go to work and she works for Disney.

...

And,

...

you know, I would be left to my devices.

...

Which is always the way that I I work I have a studio,

...

at least for writing at home, and

...

all of a sudden,

...

that was,

...

you know, that that had to change. You know, we had to share the space and

...

...you

...

know, it's it ...I think it seems me it's been a positive for her in that, you know, she

...

realizes

...

that all this wasted time, you know, in London should spend a hour each way, that literally wasted energy.

...

And

...

now that that is

...

not having to be

...

spent by that. You know, actually, disney make work tool.

...

Seventy evening or eight or nine, or whatever instead, but that's another a story. But ...yeah.

...

Nothing.

...

I mean, for me,

...

art

...

is generated the best,

...

the best

...

the best ways

...

the best environment for art to come out of requires space and time.

...

And there are two things that have become russian and

...

they shrunk in in the economy that we've created

...

post two thousand and eight, if not, let's start before then, but it's certainly accelerated since that.

...

And I think, you know, maybe ...I

...

mean, so you ...yeah. I think, you know, people working,

...

like, our, but also, maybe some of these spaces that are now lying

...

empty in the cities. I mean, I live on the Other City of London. And it's just very noticeable when you walk around now that so many of the properties are now not,

...

and maybe

...

if these spaces can be taken over,

...

you know, like, you know, the that I live in shortage was an old industrial area, and in the nineties when the young british why vo came out of this area.

...

It was mainly because there were big warehouses old Vi victorian warehouses that were lying an empty after the recession in the early nineties.

...

The same in New York in the lower side and the seventies that know so much great

...

art that change the world came from

...

you know,

...

that's more geographic location, and and, you know, again, der,

...

warehouses and old garment traction. And

...

because people had lots of stats. They

...

spread out different projects to work on

...

concurrently right yeah. And display what you wanna be band and make a lot of noise. You really need expecting what I find here, you know, that ...now that everyone is living

...

in their properties all the time.

...

I'm really a aware sand I make, and this area at one point would have been very humid. So there would have been people blair noise out front sense, but it isn't more.

...

And so,

...

you know, I'm actually this weird position where I live in the area that was where

...

this this a lot of you know, culture to cut it, you know, come from in the nineties.

...

But no because of the real estate prices, it's ...you

...

know, I can't make noise.

...

I I gears from the color comes looks on your door and says no listen.

...

It is getting a bit place..

...

Does feel like that. Sometimes. So but you know there's a lot of oak. There's are lots of properties not far from here that Are been used.

...

And

...

I think that would yes have you noticed have you noticed any any effort to

...

say

...

intermediate.

...

Some kind of a

...

situation where artists,

...

put their hands up and say, yes, you know, I'd love to to, you know, open up a studio

...

and then get into some kind of a relationship with

...

this company that

...

puts puts up it's hand and says, yes, we have some space that we're not using right now.

...

We'd love to get into a conversation with artists

...

to our mutual benefit.

...

Is this happening at all?

...

Well, there was an organization in New York.

...

This is back in the nineties and the early two thousands.

...

Which had owned a lot of real estate in New York that they were going to redevelop.

...

And so once they had empty, the buildings of tenants,

...

the daughter of one of the executives of this company set up an,

...

and they

...

donated the space and the cost of the insurance

...

to have people there, and they let the artists have the buildings. And I I had a couple of residences through them.

...

And we basically had full run of the building until

...

they tore it down.

...

But what happened in New York, of course is that the

...

all of that space disappeared,

...

and there just wasn't anywhere else to go and space became

...

you

...

basically

...

evaporated. There wasn't any more space.

...

And now we have a very interesting situation where now there's a surplus of commercial real estate

...

in a way that there hasn't ...hasn't been seen since maybe the seventies.

...

And what will they do with it?

...

Mean, I can't imagine we're gonna go back to full

...

corporate

...

tendency again. Too many people are gonna stay ...not gonna go back?

...

And who can completely. ...Well, they claiming mean that

...

the Yoke the yoke as it well has been lifted

...

and people

...

are quite happy working.

...

Remotely bid at the usual place of residence or elsewhere,

...

and their productivity

...

hasn't dropped

...

and, you know, this layer

...

of the you know, proverbial metal management

...

is finding itself with very little to do.

...

It's about, you know, it's about

...

application of resources.

...

In spheres where they have not been applied before and this kind of

...

language is and this kind of approach

...

is not foreign of business. I mean, business is very good at at identifying

...

resources that are lying fellow.

...

And optimizing that and what have you

...

So

...

I'm sure there are

...

common

...

themes that there a there's a common ground for for artists and business.

...

It's just a matter of of

...

finding some

...

some ice breakers

...

and to get the conversation going.

...

I mean, I agree asking think, you know, I'm thinking I lie out here, but i mean,

...

if you wanna bridge

...

the world of business and our

...

and

...

create

...

the creative ...industries,

...

then, you know, they should share the same space,

...

and it seems that the covid has created

...

a surplus as poor sides of commercial

...

real estate,

...

in a lot of the major cities,,

...

you know, cities that they are to price out of, you know, last few years in London, a lot of the most amazing artists that I know moved out of London to different parts of Europe.

...

Because of just sheer, you know, financial reasons. So

...

well, if you have ...if if you need need a few hundred square meters in order to work, well, you can't so it in.

...

But now there is all these, you know, hundreds of square meters thousands as square tens of thousands of square meters.

...

So

...

I mean, you know,

...

if we had a different government and

...

who had perhaps the,

...

you know, support to be asking to so historically in Britain, for example, don't generally,

...

you know,

...

support the arts

...

to well

...

I mean, they leave it to the market to decide what is

...

valuable and what isn't.

...

But, you know, that ...I think that is for me,

...

a positive

...

idea, even if it's

...

a bit

...

but from where I'm sitting britain, and I can't speak about

...

maybe I'm just being cynical, but, you know, if artists, were in the same space, maybe you could have spaces where the business works,

...

space where the artists work in space is where they both meet but you kind of say them for for obvious reasons that maybe the business people don't wanna ...you know,

...

kind of have noise or

...

you know, artists practice

...

in the same space where they're doing whatever they do vice versa,

...

but you could happen segregate it. But then share places where they meet and,

...

you know, maybe ideas could be seven that way.

...

I think is a great idea. I mean, I fantasize about it for years.

...

That that ...you know what if what if one

...

intelligent and and generous atlanta said, I'm gonna donate one floor of my office hour,

...

and I'm gonna turn it into artist studios and a Symphony space and

...

a theater.

...

And that that was in, ...that

...

that has happened a number of times. Hadn't ...I

...

mean this would be incredible because then people could just take the elevator down to the thirteenth floor or whatever it may be

...

and there you are.

...

But how do we get past that that stage when it takes

...

an

...

eccentric

...

art loving,

...

you know, property owner

...

to to establish some kind of artistic presence within

...

the the walls of

...

otherwise, you know, business oriented

...

world. And what how do we get past that and into

...

a world where it is actually normal

...

for business and

...

to coexist cheek by, and I don't mean,

...

you know, people from mid midtown

...

going down to the village and and and and hanging out with the the humans,

...

which I don't know if it happened

...

anyway.

...

But

...

you know,

...

do we create

...

this kind of mutual

...

respect, and it's just sort of a dance,

...

respectful dance between two partners

...

who each

...

bring something

...

new, you know, unique and valuable to the table.

...

And the other part understands that, you know, they don't have that.

...

And they kind of need it.

...

You know, artists certainly need exposure to the business world in order to

...

continue to create

...

stuff that some somehow, you know, someone somewhere

...

desires

...

and business needs

...

inspiration.

...

And, you know, this is this is a social of worth I think.

...

Yeah. I think someone has to do it first.

...

They have to set precedent,

...

you know,

...

because of the hardest thing is is is particularly if you're doing something new as been done is is getting the ball rolling, but

...

you know, course, because people are generally generally love to to try something that hasn't been tried digestion case, it doesn't work. Right? But Another think that's ...yep.

...

But I think it's also a problem solving, you know, for example,

...

you know, in London at the moment,

...

there is such a death of

...

space and acoustic spaces for

...

musicians to recording it. So, you know, for example, I do some of my working for film music, which can have anything from twelve, up to

...

you know, thirty forty you play it's in a room. Now when I began doing this, when I was start, with kinda project, few years ago, was Abbey Road, angel, and as studios. One of those you closed down. So there's only two,

...

and this is in London. And,

...

you know, soon there's a problem we need

...

certain sized spaces where you can see a number of people.

...

So maybe, you know, business works,

...

while, it sold in problems

...

that are specific, things like that. Right? There is a need for this.

...

Have we got the means to provide it,

...

even though ...I mean, I'm really ...I mean,

...

I mean, interestingly me a few years ago. After the two thousand eight crash musicians were staging

...

concerts in Car parks in London,

...

Car parks.

...

It's the same thing using the spaces, but maybe we can move bit into office blocks. Maybe ox can record for scores and Middle the city of London

...

in an office block. I like the idea of it ...but,

...

yeah. I don't I mean, I think it's the because thing finding in the links that make business interested that are

...

by definition

...

quantitative.

...

You know? I mean, you know, I think hopefully there are people

...

who can actually taught the language of quantity and of quality and make those

...

connections.

...

And

...

if that is possible and wanted to

...

get up and running in and they get written about the financial times, then potentially,

...

you know, you might have a little movement.

...

Then it'll be well,

...

It's not so odd. Maybe it's actually

...

okay. You have that conversation.

...

The conversation we're having is

...

the creative farm.

...

My name is Ralph Comment, and

...

my guests

...

tonight of this afternoon or this morning, wherever you are,

...

Adrian Poker and Paul,

...

this relationship of time and space

...

that you

...

just mentioned,

...

Adrian, I think is a key

...

to

...

understanding

...

the value of artistic practice without getting

...

into

...

So, the details of how people create things because quite often,

...

it is

...

tempting to talk about artistic practice in terms of

...

the

...

instruments issues and the colors

...

of your palate and,

...

you know, which lens you put on your on your camera. That's not really

...

artistic practice. Or it's like a tiny part of it. That is merely the

...

the the craft, but the

...

fundamental

...

approach to time

...

and space is something that artists

...

I think, Really could

...

teach

...

a lot of people in a lot of companies

...

Paul what you think as a as a theater director.

...

Do you find that idea

...

a lowering at all?.

...

The teacher

...

teaching the perspective of of of of time and space to to to the world of business.

...

Yeah.

...

Yeah.

...

I ...it's hard to answer that question. I'm I I think I'm still still chewing on this last bit with Adrian and was talking about about about somehow about proximity.

...

And an immersion

...

and

...

they ...while

...

he was talking, I was remembering with when I was in graduate school,

...

we we

...

we had our studios were in the basement of this building our our our

...

directing studios. So we were making scenes and

...

even whole pieces of theater in these rooms. And right next to us,

...

was were were practice rooms for piano

...

and other instruments.

...

And

...

there was no control over it. And so often, we would have a presentation

...

of our work,

...

and there would be musicians practicing in adjacent rooms.

...

And so whatever those musicians were playing

...

was what

...

was heard in our performance. In fact, it was the sound score So your head

...

all that or whatever. Sometimes it was ...and

...

I have to say that

...

more often than not.

...

It was extraordinary.

...

It was absolutely

...

extraordinary because we didn't

...

we stopped working with prepared music.

...

We just would sometimes just show up and just see who was practicing and just go.

...

And

...

this this is the kind of risk thinking and and and unexpected percentages that happen when you're in proximity.

...

To ...but that's that's that's that's that's not good.

...

Well, I think it is ...I

...

I don't know how to draw the line between Dance and theater

...

But I think ...isn't that a problem that that so much of business is about drawing of lines? In fact?

...

In fact. And I think, you know, at the also, at the heart of of the arts

...

is a a kind of

...

I would even say outlaw mentality.

...

And it's about

...

purposefully

...

crossing lines, breaking rules,

...

pushing boundaries

...

pushing into uncomfortable spaces, questioning authority,

...

I think these are things that the arts are always

...

playing around in.

...

And

...

I think

...

given the hierarchical

...

nature of most corporations,

...

this is quite threatening,

...

but

...

terrifying. In fact, and I think that

...

nevertheless, this is this is where creativity happens.

...

Absolutely. I I I think that's that that's that's where I think

...

the the the deeper encounter would have to happen.

...

Is embracing a debt. Well,

...

if if you're talking about in innovation in no,

...

not in

...

kind of as we've had it so far, but just a bit better.

...

That's

...

in motivation, it has to be something

...

new. It has to come in from outside of your bubble and, of course, this idea of

...

what you just said. I don't know what where to draw draw line or even how to drive.

...

It is it's key to artistic practice.

...

And and it's yet another

...

another

...

subject for long and

...

somewhat terrifying and definitely threatening,

...

but ultimately fruitful conversation with

...

I think we are

...

elegantly

...

elegance

...

coming to a conclusion here, and I think the conclusion is

...

that next week, if you would be so kind

...

to join me, We should talk about

...

serendipity

...

and happy happened stands.

...

And all those things that

...

occur

...

just as they did in that practice room down in the basement of the the article school that

...

paul just described

...

where you get

...

input from outside of the situation that you're in.

...

And then of Us sudden, you know, down

...

a different path,

...

carrying

...

a torch towards, you know, a goal, which actually ...they

...

didn't

...

know existed always was kind of only vaguely aware of

...

thirty seconds ago.

...

What do you think chap? Seven serendipity next week?

...

Sound grand. Since good. Yes. See here.

...

It's the kind of bedrock of a lot of artists artistic practices isn't it mistakes,

...

or serendipity, However you wanna call it?

...

Yeah. It's like with this they

...

the quality of finding something when you're when you're looking for something else altogether, I rather

...

I rather like that idea.

...

So thank you.

...

Again to Edwin Coca and Paul.

...

My name is Ralph, and this has been the creative farm

...

where we plant ideas in that

...

fertile

...

well managed we hope spot

...

we're out and business

...

meat or should.

...

And then we see what what comes up.

...

Thank you. Thanks for listening.

...

To what to

...

very kind and very patient.

...

Audience, and we will see you

...

again next week, same time. And dare I say,

...

same station.

...

Thank you.

...

Thank you thank you. Good night..

Fortune Cookie