The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

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Transcript

...

I'm

...

And.

...

And welcome to another

...

session on the creative farm

...

where we ...well,

...

see what see what grows. We we

...

feed of your ideas and we see what

...

what comes up.

...

And let me

...

welcome my fellow travelers. On this journey,

...

Paul Bar jet,

...

theater director

...

from New York City.

...

And currently, by way of more.

...

And

...

in shortage,

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conductor

...

composer,

...

musician,

...

Adrian Co.

...

Welcome again, Chap.

...

Hi

...

Nice to be here.

...

It is always a pleasure, and I

...

I'm really now starting to look forward to

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Monday Night.

...

Tonight's

...

tonight's chat is about

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an idea, which I think is close to what to all of our hats, and that is serendipity,

...

and will be

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trying very hard to

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demonstrate that it's a lot more than just

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dumb luck,

...

but let's let's just go back to the source.

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And

...

and see what actually serendipity is all about and where it comes from. Now some people may there some people mean know. But, you know,

...

in seventeen fifty four,

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more precisely

...

towards the end of January of that year.

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Fellow by the name of Horace War. Who was

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an English man of letters and a member of parliament.

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Back then, you see they had men of letters in the parliament

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remarked in a letter to a friend. Another horse as it happens.

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And they saul missed these days, I think, Chorus,

...

but I digress, she remarked on a story he'd found in which the protagonists

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were blessed with the the good fortune

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of finding well, good fortune

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wherever they went

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The story was the three princes of Sarah Depp,

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and the three princes were, and I quote

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always making discoveries by accidents.

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And successfully

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of things

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which they were not in quest of

...

and thus

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a new word

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was born.

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How important

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is

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serendipity in your work gentleman

...

Oh, sorry. Having to technical difficult just starting on my mind. This this is this is in beta so, let's not forget. You know? Bits of bass and ray flying about just as we speak

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I think I was muted. But anyway, I very well there go.

...

That's so cool. I would she say shall I start from a musical

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perspective for then? Yeah. Great.

...

So

...

I mean, serendipity, I mean, I think,

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you know, music, obviously,

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from the enlightenment

...

was built on

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very high rock structures

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of

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how things are done. And

...

so about orders and executive power, You know, seems like, you know, the york trees built in in the way to an army or university

...

some awful

...

layers of

...

different

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authority right down to the students

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lowest students or an orchestra australia,

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question at the back because they sang and they make noise rather than playing harmony and so they're, you know, what very reasons at the back?

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But I think in the twenty century you happened is people, you know, the various reasons started

...

kinda grating,

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you know, in mentioned and trying to create

...

it's sort of serendipity. They're trying to negate negate

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authority control and give it over to

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their musicians. So kind trying destroy the hierarchy

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of how,

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you know,

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orders and

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speakers i are made.

...

John Codes, you know, was one of the great leaders of that and he he had a he had

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phrase. You said, oh, I'm not to say and I'm saying it, and he

...

wrote scores that were really about trying to create

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processes for musicians to

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interact with and to create their own

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he wasn't interested in telling them what to do. He was interested in

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enabling them to do what they already could do.

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And, obviously, this then goes into an area,

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you know, with you know, improvisation and music where

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instead of someone

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having

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a kind of very precise set instructions, it's left to a

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spontaneous

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moment by moment creative

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process.

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And

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you know, I think

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for for a lot of musicians it's moving for, and

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I mean, funny enough today actually,

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is ...I

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didn't actually ask

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permission if I could

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quote this, but it's actually a a an album that looking out on a label in the year and it's memorization between a chat

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an organism

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in Iceland.

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And lisa you and kid downs,

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and she sent me over the sleeve notes today, and I thought, you know, it's really relevant a paragraph on it.

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To this idea of

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serendipity and chance.

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So this is what it says

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what happens in an improvisation is that our consciousness sinks down into the deeply settlement places of our river minds.

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We sink down to where we are not calculated and not executing and move from there

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from our segmented practice of playing together and expanding the boundaries of our material bodies

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by attending to the soft places that let the outside in in the inside out.

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This felt sense of the kind of underwater operating is born out by recent

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Research into musical creativity,

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which shows that improvisation

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is marked by a dear to

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in the areas of the brain controlling a executive function.

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And the altered states of consciousness,

...

such as dreaming, meditation, and,

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Chosen the.

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And our sophie,

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Used the rights of words

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particularly beautiful.

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Yes.

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Slightly time gentle is always

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too kind of what we're talking about in some spinning act from ceremony serendipity, but

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I anyway, that's my kind of take on it as a user musician

...

or ...poor.

...

Yeah.

...

Wow, That was quite a beautiful beautiful for quote and

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set it for far more eloquent, than I think I can probably master.

...

But to answer your question,

...

serendipity is is

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the heart of the matter, I think, in

...

the creative process in the theater.

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Because

...

seven

...

serendipity is

...

as

...

was just said

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it's it's deeply connected to improvisation.

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And so

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what I would add to that is that that improvisation

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state

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is is unconscious

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as as also this quote points to. It's getting down into the settlement of the unconscious or the collective unconscious have.

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And it's not it's not planned.

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In the moment, but the situation itself is planned.

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And so when we go hunting for those

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happy accidents,

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which I guess, is another way to think about serendipity.

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We're often ...we often talk about

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that the place of that it is happening,

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meaning the rehearsal space or the theater

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and the artist who were there and present

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is a place where we try to create what ...what

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is it we described somehow as an exquisite pressure.

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So best blind.

...

An exquisite pressure is the pressure of attention.

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And readiness

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as a state of deep awareness

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and presence.

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Creates the sense of exquisite pressure

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combined with

...

I would say the river

...

which is the unconscious

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unplanned

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accidental who knows what's going to happen next

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ideas of process,

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So this pressure is very much welcome.

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I think it's essential because

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because we're looking for something

...

it's not just a state

...

to be in. We're we're trying to get something out of it. And so some of us have to be

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unconscious.

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Some of us have to be deeply present, and that that pressure comes I think, from that presence.

...

How

...

is that related to text sent Hall?

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Idea of flow?

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Is it sounds as though,

...

It's not even parallel tracks. It's the same body of water.

...

Yeah. I think flow is really the name for

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where you are,

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you know, musicians sometimes

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or artists Generally. So well musicians because of the time

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nature of it, I guess actors are the same

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because you're dealing with real time

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where, say painting or,

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you know, a novel is is manipulate at of time whereas music you are

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do we a moment by moment expressive

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and a performance.

...

And

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though is

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when you feel like it's not you doing it, you know, this the cliche that musicians sometimes say it feels like it's coming through

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and it is that, you know, nothing the river such a nice analogy for it.

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Because

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you know, you feel that you are there, but you're not there and people talk for having out body experiences.

...

And I've had this with improvisation. I mean, you know, I've improvised with some musicians

...

knowing full well that they're way better than me. And sometimes,

...

it's it feels like you're riding an animal.

...

That's one way of describing it. That's perhaps when you're kind of feeling feeling not in the flow, but you're aware that you can build the the power of the the musician you're working with other times, you just do literally

...

feel that something about what they're doing

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brings out something in you that you weren't where was there, you know, so you become better just by,

...

you know, being with we a really good musician and being able to kind of connect with their brutality and not be scared

...

because you know that quote about

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disabling certain parts of the brain or deactivate, and I think it said certain parts of the brain,

...

which of what we are taught to work from pretty much all the time.

...

I mean, from our school in at, you know, we're taught to rationalize

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cassette,

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system based store is is that, which is the most valued really. You know, if we look at the frameworks of our culture, you know, the legal framework, the economic frameworks, they're deeply systemic Deep detail,

...

and the people that can navigate and process those systems

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or or ...yeah, navigate

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know that they're value most society, but intuition and these

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states of

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of these places,

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you know, have been kind of under eigenvalues,

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I think,

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up to now.

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And, of course, you know, one of the first major art forms

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that,

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you know, this improvisation came through his jazz is, you know,

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is is black music and, you know, the

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kind of indebtedness that, you know, we have really to,

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you know, what what jazz,

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you know, initiated

...

you know, is kind of massive.

...

Well, there's been all manner of of research on,

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the actual

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brain mechanics

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of improvisation.

...

Charles

...

lim, I think,

...

it was his name at at

...

John Hopkins of medicine,

...

worked with

...

He there is a himself. He worked with

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a piano player,

...

and his

...

experiments or research of you know, studies, if you will

...

of this guy playing

...

demonstrated something quite fascinating,

...

and and precisely, what you were talking about,

...

just a moment ago,

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every that

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when he played

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a bar.

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One set particular set of the brain lit up

...

but when he went off and

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improvised

...

with a handful of notes and and a general idea,

...

or altogether different parts of the brain

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lit.

...

So

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this idea of dis disengage from

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rigorous conscious thought,

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of course, comes through loud and clear.

...

But then the question, of course, comes up

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that

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is that enough? Is it enough to

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just disengage and, of course, the answer as well.

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You have to know what it is that you're dis disengage from.

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Because then the question of level of skill and domain expertise

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comes in,

...

is it a

...

Is that what what old golfer is used to say. And it was, you know, I think, four or five different goat cough were quoted as saying, you know, the the harder right practice, The lucky I get

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Is it a question of

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the better you're at? The easier it is to disengage from the thing that you're good at.

...

Well I mean, I quick say yeah. I think, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, I'm not one of those musicians, but

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you know, the people

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who've done the ten thousand hours

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they have

...

I think the analogy from the article from the line liner of notes I read out was the there's sediment deep in the river, there's deep layers of sediment. So

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you know, you have ...these ...this is a resource, the more

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time has been spent, you build up this settlement, which means that when you go into the river,

...

you you actually have all this matter that can be called on and turned up.

...

And I think that is absolutely how it is. Yeah. I think you know, the more time is spent doing something, the more cabin build up it.

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Means that in a kind of moment where you have to like rash yourself,

...

and you disengage all the kind of,,

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you know, contextual

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conceptual

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teaching that you've had. You you you rely on this stuff in which is saying then I waiting.

...

How does that work in in theater?

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I think it's ...I

...

was thinking about this this this metaphors as we keep playing with this Metaphor,

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you know, which is somehow the thing at the bottom of the river

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that

...

I think I would call that ...that's

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relationship.

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So broadly speaking, it's the relationship

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between the players and the text and the players and the director,

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the relationship with each of us.

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And so it's somehow

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that plus time

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And I think those are the the fun actually the real fundamentals

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of improvisation.

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So that ...and

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also,

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as Adrian was saying that

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when you think about jazz,

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the the thing that is so revolutionary

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about it is is that is it it is

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it is really rooted

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in

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a non hierarchical

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system. So it's really

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democratic in a sense. There's a certain agreed upon set of

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rules

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or at least fixed points.

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But between those fixed points, it's it's it's free. It's swimming. It's in improvisation.

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And the only role is you have to be good.

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You have to be ...you have to be able to play. That's for sure.

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Up someone's calling.

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Wonder what Sarah

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Can call others.

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Well, get rid of that one.

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So many electronic devices on my desk. I don't know how many I have muted or or not.

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There's a degree of the ridiculous about that, You know, But never mind.

...

Without that settlement, the river wouldn't be a river would have it would be just merely

...

a mass of water. Right? The that the settlement

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defines the river just as much as the banks do. So

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in terms of that relationship of the text and the

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the actors and the stage and the time. It's rather a lot more than just going off scripts there isn't it?

...

Well, absolutely. And and think this is what time comes in.

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I remember I saw

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a production

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on one of my

...

first trips to Europe where I went to go see a theater festival.

...

I saw a production of check three sisters.

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And this is a play that I've I've seen

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probably at least a dozen times in my life.

...

Well this ...it's part of the camp amazing part of how. How exactly do you improvise on that?

...

Well, this is what was extraordinary is I

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saw of production, which was done via a guarantee

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theater company.

...

And

...

I

...

was

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totally go smack by it.

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I never seen anything like it, and I couldn't put my finger on what it was that I was seeing that was so extraordinary in there.

...

Because it wasn't staged necessarily in such in imaginative way.

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It was a

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somewhat of guard take on the on on the play, but what was really extraordinary

...

was

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what I couldn't see, what I could I could feel and smell and sense.

...

And what that was was there was some profound

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subtext here, some profound,

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and relationship

...

between all of these people,

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that gave the the work an incredible

...

specific

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And and

...

I would say, almost

...

profoundly heavy

...

quality.

...

And I rushed up to some of the actors after the performance.

...

And I said, how how did you how did you? What is this ...what is this? How is it made? How did you do that?

...

And

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the actress

...

very patiently and indulge and sesame said, well,

...

we've been playing it for ten years.

...

As so you mean, you've been playing for ten ten years. And and we couldn't even begin to relate to experience like that. There were a a stage play would be performed

...

by the same team

...

for ten years.

...

And so

...

in fact, the what we were witnessing

...

in our present was ten years of playing together.

...

And what does that mean? Well,

...

she said that in the course of that time, the director had died.

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Some of the cast had gotten married had children and gotten divorced.

...

And so all of that sediment

...

of relationship

...

was

...

visible somehow for sensible within what we were looking at.

...

And I think that

...

when they play it,

...

the levels of improvisation that are drawn out of this enormous well of experience of playing together

...

is actually,

...

I think, sort on the point of serendipity

...

that it's it is a happy There are so many happy accidents happening, but then in the in another sense,

...

they are not accidents. They are drawn

...

from a gigantic shared

...

base of experience.

...

And it resonates through the through the cast.

...

Exactly. And then the text,

...

which is

...

check off brilliant text is is somehow

...

the frame that all of that is is on

...

And so it allowed me to see a play, which I knew almost by heart.

...

So suddenly see it, and I I didn't know the play at all. It wasn't all on you.

...

Ed when you used you used

...

the other word

...

in from our title tonight,

...

few minutes ago, intuition.

...

How important is

...

intuition to serendipity?

...

Well, you know, I think

...

for example,

...

serendipity is the idea that something happens without and in and and it

...

without an intention almost

...

happens for chances it's luck.

...

And I think

...

that

...

in intuition

...

works sort of in a different way in the ...you

...

just know something

...

feels, like, it has to be done like this, and it's not actually

...

like

...

conceptualize.

...

It's just felt and then done.

...

And then actually, in in the kind of in

...

of in a musical framework, you know, it's done on a second by second basis.

...

So

...

I think, seven serendipity ...I

...

mean, you know, so Moles Davis back to Jazz said something who wants like, you know, if you make a mistake,

...

play again, and then it becomes

...

not a mistake. You know? By repeating a mistake, it becomes sort of form. But I ...you know, so I think that is more

...

of a serendipity thing that you then kinda take and and make into something that wasn't originally intended. That was really jarring. How i'll it again? Yeah. Exactly. And then people just get used to through the first time it is shot second time. It's just you really want So,

...

you know, the brains prepared for it. I mean, I think intuition is slightly different. I think intuition is

...

kind of

...

kind of stomach

...

felt sense of

...

what something is or should be

...

But I mean, you know, I think the other thing that we haven't touched on

...

which is something ...I mean, I guess we talked about the idea of time

...

and the check that, you know, ten years,

...

this big scale and the this number of human beings kind of generate this massive resource

...

that can be pulled on and and, you know, send into great art.

...

And it's the same thing. You know, if you get,

...

you know, if you get, like, a bunch of

...

musicians playing in an orchestra,

...

even though it was originally intended as a hierarchical rock thing.

...

The beautiful thing about yorkshire is that you have that weird attention between

...

everyone

...

working within that hierarchy, but at the same time,

...

everyone being human. So even if you give someone one note to play,

...

everyone will play slightly differently. I mean, the vast musicians will minimize,

...

you know, that

...

kind of human accuracy in or, you know, in the moments. But

...

that's what Find really fascinating. Because it sounds like a chaos principle that the more people there are

...

And if you don't reign in the the human

...

quality of each individual performance.

...

You get this beautiful tension between

...

the group and the individual. And i think, again, a lot of

...

twenty essential computers were playing with that tension.

...

And

...

it's something I'm really interested in them and I've been in marines where

...

you know, it's like you just have to come up with this a bit like, a democratic system

...

where you're a benign ruler. And in fact, you're trying to educate it's wanna an ana state I think I'd like to equate it to where. You don't wanna rule,

...

but you wanna kind of set up a framework for people to do the best things they can in.

...

And I think, you know,

...

that creates so many serendipity things. I mean, I you know, come out with framework and and you give it some musicians and they just ...it's like watching this

...

collective unconscious mind. Just generate something.

...

That you couldn't have imagined

...

in years, you know, and those things for me,

...

you know, when those things happen, they're the they're there's kind of things that make me love

...

making music

...

somewhere in that space

...

between love for the conductor and share terror. Of the conductor?

...

Yeah.

...

This is the creative farm

...

my name Ralph Tom, and

...

my guests are Paul,

...

director, and

...

Edwin Co,

...

musician composer.

...

And we're talking about serendipity,

...

intuition and all those other good things

...

that are the the building blocks of

...

ideas that that forward.

...

We coined

...

on luck as an old saying goes, and

...

apparently, there's research to prove it because there's research to prove.

...

Very damn. If you if you're dig deep enough,

...

a correlation

...

ray at the

...

University of Missouri,

...

Sandra Abel.

...

Has spent somewhere in the order of

...

thirty years studying

...

how people create their own serendipity.

...

All failed to do so.

...

And she has

...

based on the research the surveys interviews calculations, you know, that good stuff.

...

She has come up

...

with

...

a definition that

...

indeed

...

roughly

...

the non encounters.

...

That is the people who are so focused on what they're doing. They don't.

...

Lift their gaze up to actually, you know, find new things.

...

The occasional and encounter is

...

who

...

occasionally

...

stumble into

...

serendipity,

...

and then there were super encounters

...

who

...

trip across

...

good stuff

...

on a daily basis.

...

They will go off into bookstores

...

and look for books that have nothing to do with there.

...

Area of study or there will spend time with people

...

from

...

endeavors

...

that have nothing to do with what their own

...

occupation may be, and they will always come away with new ideas or maybe kernels

...

of new ideas.

...

This idea of intentional

...

pursuit

...

of certain serendipity,

...

but be not even intentional, but sort of conscious also be conscious,

...

pursuit certainty he fas me

...

because

...

it would

...

suggest

...

that you can increase your chances of certain serendipity encounters

...

by training yourself

...

to to listen to your gut.

...

Have you noticed

...

anything like that's paul?

...

Yeah. You you you you put the the finger on the heart of ...I would say the heart of directing in fact,

...

is is, you know, how to train yourself.

...

You said is said that moment? We you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that's it that's it. Give me that. Give me that.

...

Yeah. We have expression, like, keep it.

...

So so some somehow, something will magically appear

...

out of your work.

...

Through conversations

...

or through repetition repetitions and suddenly you see it. And you say,, that's it. Keep it.

...

And I think that this goes

...

So there's a tension between

...

sort of entropy

...

so that that there's the idea that everything

...

sort of bends towards that

...

in life. Life is is a process bending towards

...

collapse. I'm not being

...

not being

...

And so that that that that that that

...

force and presence is constantly there. So

...

working against you, putting you to sleep,

...

So how do you

...

knowing that the the the goal is is to try to get yourself into a state

...

of

...

deep

...

interest.

...

And I I had a professor many years ago said

...

something, which I've carried with me for a long time, which is

...

of interest is the one thing you can't fake.

...

And

...

and I took that to me

...

that

...

it was probably the most important thing that

...

or or quality that I could cultivate

...

as an artist.

...

And so I think that that when you if you

...

can cultivate a sense of deep interest,

...

and think about

...

how interesting everything is, not just in the world of art, but in life, because serendipity happens in life all the time.

...

That you start to become a hunter of serendipity.

...

You're looking for it everywhere out of a state of deep interest.

...

I think this is

...

finding that way to stay engaged and interested against this force of life which is the opposite, which is putting you to sleep.

...

And I think that most people, the weight of it is too heavy

...

and so they don't ever look up from

...

their little bench and they don't see all the serendipity that's happening all around them.

...

Because they're simply not interested

...

they're not motivated enough to be interested.

...

Because I think about, like,

...

I always ...I'm

...

amazed at the discovery of and.

...

You know, this is like one of the great of all time Sarah Diabetes.

...

And yet, what what really made it happen was in fact,

...

that

...

this guy

...

who

...

was was aware and interested enough to notice.

...

You know, that this accident had happened and he had the interest and awareness to notice something was different.

...

And whereas the

...

average person or the other person would never have even noticed.

...

And it turns out to be, you know, maybe one of the most profound

...

medical discoveries

...

of all time

...

and what quite lucky they would have just cleaned up the experiment and and and gone down. That didn't work.

...

And that sort of attention, of course, is at the heart

...

heart of discovery and invention in

...

disciplines

...

other than merely

...

those who are naturally deemed to be creative.

...

Let me

...

invite a few humans up to the stage.

...

And

...

in the meantime,

...

while I'm

...

pressing the buttons, Adrian, would you would you like to to to pipe in on that

...

on that

...

subject of training yourself to?

...

To hold interest to focus on the things that you're not focusing on.

...

Yeah. I mean, I think

...

one ...one of the things that I noticed is particularly with, you know,

...

my and everyone's,

...

you know,

...

growing use of technology

...

for

...

how you interact world. So how how I make things when I they music it computer are kind of central to the process.

...

At least in some some parts of it, and

...

it does kind of do certain things built into

...

how

...

the architecture that works that

...

if you don't question, it, can like,

...

push you into various

...

places, which

...

for me are kind of a bit of dead ends, for example, the sense of time, you know, when you work on computers with music, there's grids, which basically kind of forever

...

breaking up time into accurate,

...

you know, repetitive

...

chunks.

...

And music, you know, we talked over about flow and how,

...

you know,

...

flow is a state the musicians try and get in in an

...

sense.

...

So I'm permanently kind of fighting.

...

I mean, I I love digital technology and, you know, the like, what are we doing now? This is absolutely

...

three digital technology,

...

which is incredible, but

...

I find that I have to permanently try and oriented and take myself so I don't

...

get caught in ways of thinking.

...

You know, even if it's just how I listened, so I sometimes sit in one place,

...

and I find that I'm listening,

...

and I'm stopped listening because I've sat in the same place so long

...

that I've I've kind of almost

...

become a client

...

to this

...

state,

...

and

...

my attention has dwi massively.

...

So then I have I'll go somewhere else and take a tiny little speaker and connect my computer through a time little speaker. And just to try and wake myself up from,

...

you know, a kind of ...gets computer. There's a a lot of what computers are very repetitive, and they do very, many many tasks very much more quickly than new humans can do. And there's something about interacting about all the time that can lower you into

...

the rhythm

...

of the technology,

...

which when it's used as a tool in fantastic, but when you start being hy

...

by the technology,

...

I find creatively

...

it kind of ...where's it's just not for me. I mean, maybe some people have a much better relationship with

...

computers when they're making music. I'm sure they do a lot of people that

...

very

...

accomplished

...

at that side of it. But, yeah, I think, you know, it just ...you

...

know, just keeping

...

questioning. And and

...

I mean, years ago as well, I was doing a lot of quite intense yoga and I found that just literally

...

that

...

had a massive effect on

...

my creativity,

...

and it wasn't something I'd expect and, you know, you read stuff about this.

...

But And I think it's just ...literally every week, my body was going through intensive

...

re

...

conditioning, you know, literally open opening up construction the body, and you kind of resonate differently. And then

...

when you're interact with the world or you're making creative

...

decisions or working with other people creatively,

...

you know, you're kind of different and each week

...

it's changing

...

you know, like, it's ...like you said that thing of not being asleep, but

...

kind of an endeavor to kind of

...

attempt to be more awake if possible.

...

I just remember that

...

on several locations,

...

of

...

back in the day back in the day when I was

...

in the

...

photography and

...

design

...

related fields.

...

I would go into

...

the

...

work rooms of the offices of

...

much older and accomplished greater directors.

...

And

...

I would find that there they

...

had lots of stuff in those rooms,

...

but computers were not among the the tools.

...

And

...

every time they would say computers

...

are for, you know, for

...

executing,

...

there ideas, they are not

...

necessarily for the creation of the ideas because the minute, you start to use a particular tool

...

it takes you down a particular path,

...

and they were interested in exploring many parts and not

...

executing one path.

...

Beautifully, which is, of course, what we do in in design or or, you, survey or whatever is that

...

that whatever told we is.

...

An interesting question that

...

has occurred to me is

...

as we were speaking,

...

that serendipity by definition

...

expands horizons.

...

And

...

given that we

...

badly

...

need to expand our horizons in a world that is,

...

you know, the Through acronym,

...

volatile,

...

uncertain complex and ambiguous.

...

Why is listening

...

to

...

these

...

areas that that are outside of your immediate focus.

...

And why is deep interest

...

in

...

the area

...

that

...

should be your immediate focus.

...

Why are those

...

competencies,

...

not taught

...

as indeed core competencies, but there are

...

things that we have to find on own. Is that because

...

that's just how is that, you know, we need a master maybe or a good book.

...

Can it be somehow

...

formalized?

...

Can it be taught?

...

I mean, I think that

...

one of the things that we have at the moment is,

...

as I said earlier, you know, the system

...

demand specialization

...

and you know, everyone's experts who reach certain and

...

social status in the field.

...

They're not journalists. In fact, you know, been a journalist is is, is sort of framed on because it seems like, you know, it's like the mash. You know, what did it say?

...

Jack of all and master

...

that's not exactly turn.

...

But I think we're living in the world now where because of the deep into connectivity that this technology is, you know, creating,

...

and the way that these

...

these kind of very sort of separated,

...

you know,

...

different disciplines have been kept apart, you know, for very good reasons.

...

Suddenly the world

...

is

...

demanding more

...

journalists. You can connect a lot of these different fields.

...

And, you know, it's like i be amateurs,

...

you know, amateurs is someone who isn't a professional,

...

but I guess they have a deep interest in something. And I kind of really clash myself as an amateurs. You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm an amateurs of many things.

...

And

...

in a way,

...

I think, you know, we need to be more doesn't need need to be more amateurs

...

in many ways. I mean, I think, you know, did everyone

...

it's such a kinda of corporate structure everyone having to kind of brand themselves and be professional and I'm just kind certain a language about

...

you know, things are

...

communicated and I present themselves. Well, I'll out here after a long and

...

career of

...

how many photos and how many books

...

and how many accomplishment

...

accomplishments with the

...

would describe himself as an amateurs,

...

but no longer diligent.

...

Which I find, particularly, particularly lovely. What do you thankful

...

about this idea of

...

learning

...

to to

...

use

...

serendipity

...

as

...

as a tool or maybe learning to

...

listen learning to listen to your gut so that's

...

serendipity is something that you find

...

a natural

...

course of things and not

...

merely dumb luck.

...

Can you teach yourself?

...

I think you can.

...

But but I I I think that also, the the the problem

...

is that I I feel that the the

...

the pursuit of serendipity

...

is is a bit of an outlaw undertaking.

...

Meaning

...

that

...

if you are focusing your life on

...

and your attention on looking for happy accidents,

...

this is the opposite of what

...

power was.

...

And so I think in in life, generally, we're always in a conflict and relationship with with power and power structures.

...

So if you're in school,

...

and my whole almost all my experience of school

...

was as we've discussed in the past is somehow some

...

nineteenth or eighteenth century, I russian

...

idea of what learning is.

...

This is not entirely unique.

...

No. And so

...

they the

...

there's a very funny head term when I was just doing a little reading before we started tonight.

...

I i would I'd never heard of before,

...

in relation, which is

...

bar serendipity.

...

Okay.

...

And

...

so

...

I'll just read you from the wiki.

...

So bar serendipity is derived directly from Ballroom Gore. As characterized

...

in the three princes of Russian Dip.

...

It describes

...

the suppression

...

of St serendipity discoveries of research results

...

by powerful

...

individuals.

...

And

...

that really struck a chord with me

...

because

...

I was the kid in class that was always getting busted. Staring out a window.

...

And

...

I think time honored and very effective

...

activity as far as generation of new ideas is concerned.

...

Exactly.

...

And and so constantly being dragged out of that

...

special state of consciousness that you enter into when you're dreaming

...

day dreaming out the window,

...

and being forced to obey

...

the dictates of power.

...

So I think if if you wanted to train

...

yourself,

...

to

...

for or to make the training of of the pursuit of serendipity

...

part of an educational process

...

you'd have to do some pretty heavy dismantling of of

...

education as we understand it.

...

So can it really only be

...

because

...

it's ...I mean, there is really no way to put it on the curriculum.

...

I don't know if that's true. I think there is a way.

...

I mean, for example, like,

...

there's been some really radical experiments in education that that

...

I've that happened in California

...

and when I was growing up, I would even around this once where

...

there were schools

...

where

...

students would come

...

and would be and would do a task,

...

and the teacher

...

would not know how to teach the task.

...

So for example, the teacher would come and the the lecture would be how to to dis disassemble a piston engine and reassemble it.

...

And then they would send someone like me, who knows nothing about taking a part.

...

And

...

then that person and the children together would try to figure out how to do it.

...

And

...

somehow, to me, this is

...

this is a way to train for certainty serendipity because then

...

one starts to find underlying logic and what's there, but no one is the master.

...

In fact, it's by design. There is no master

...

whatsoever.

...

And we're all just discovering

...

We're all just in a state of discovery.

...

And

...

I think this is a profound way to learn.

...

And I I think that this is also gets at

...

act to the artistic practice is it is the pursuit of unknown.

...

Well, this is very much at the center of the work over

...

another fireside

...

from I just actually spotted

...

you on the platform. Not that long ago. Give it Tally..

...

Created a thing called the the tinkering school,

...

and wrote our book called if my memory serves,

...

fifty dangerous things, you should let your kids do,

...

And he is all about a discovery and figuring it out.

...

So

...

others those all those ideas really

...

a part of artistic practice.

...

And

...

they

...

natural. They are not something that's

...

artists necessarily need to even define

...

because it happens

...

just ...well,

...

naturally,

...

However,

...

too much of the

...

quote unquote civilian population out there. You know, the the outside world,

...

the people who

...

go to galleries and love the art but haven't actually tried it themselves because maybe they're afraid or maybe

...

they just reckon. It's not a thing they do.

...

They are also in need of this kind of thinking in

...

in the work in the in their business life, What have you?

...

Because

...

if there's one thing that we really need badly these days, it's new ideas

...

And if there's

...

one

...

overarching crisis that are

...

civilization

...

is currently suffering from it is a crisis of imagination or lack of it.

...

So, you know, here, we circle back

...

to the central premise

...

behind the creative farm, and that is the idea that

...

business needs to learn

...

from

...

the arts,

...

things other than

...

it has done for a long

...

period of time,

...

and the art

...

whatever they may be

...

have lots to offer in addition

...

to putting lovely lovely things on walls and beautiful performances, and

...

filling the halls of

...

of,

...

you know, of business with with wonderful music

...

So this building of relationships

...

between

...

the arts and the broader world is

...

central to what we talk about here on the creative phone.

...

And

...

i

...

saying as we're

...

coming to the bottom of the hour, and we'll have to have to be

...

knocking off as we say,

...

All.

...

I'd like,

...

I'd like you and and heirloom to maybe

...

give some thought as to examples of

...

interactions that you've had not necessarily with, you know,

...

particular types of humans out there, but, like any types of humans

...

where where people went away,

...

inspired

...

not just to, you know, go it and listen to the music more maybe by another record, but actually think

...

about what it is that they're doing in their own lives and with their own lives

...

and how to maybe figure out how to tinker

...

on the central ideas of their lives using some of those

...

mechanics of serendipity

...

that they

...

a witnessed

...

during performance.

...

Has that ever happened to you guys?

...

I mean, I i ...it's usually,

...

I I get those moments and I artists all the time and and people that I work with, you know, people that are I'm mean reason like deeply inspired. And ...yeah.

...

I mean, I think

...

I mean, it's it's it's slightly kind of at tangent again.

...

But also, the thing about art and society, I mean,

...

Haven't had a lot going.

...

We've become aware that there was a whole

...

set of people who work in that

...

you know, I kind of not valued

...

and

...

they're not given the right wages and that, you know, they kept up and going and

...

I was like I still destroy art where he was just sweeping a street with a brush. Mm-mm his point generally was actually what everything can be art. Mm-mm If it's done,

...

you know, Ed Can,

...

and I think that the hierarchical sensor are it's only gotta be music or the finest.

...

Beautiful and in Inspiring as they are is is is, you know, perhaps also,

...

you know,

...

what we need to address that actually,

...

if we value

...

if if that hierarchical value system

...

is dismantled,

...

you know, maybe

...

you will create the potential for so many other people

...

to

...

blossom. I mean, where I live in shortage as well. There is this is the first social has in estate in the the world, and there's a big

...

round

...

under of grass and with a band stand in it, nearby, it's about the only

...

green area around here because this is a very industrial part of London.

...

And

...

because, you know, there's people who just work there constantly through lot damn planting

...

flowers

...

for no money, you know, volunteers,

...

just making sure that, you know, this shared space that belongs to no one

...

looks beautiful at a time when people need something.

...

And for me, you know, actually that ...some of the kind of community action that I've seen around the area over the last year has been some of the stuff is really,

...

you know, moved me

...

serendipity.

...

Yeah. I mean, I I mean, obviously, no one in nothing that happened. To last year it was expected They wouldn't call it own, but. Yeah. I mean, Yes. Exactly. When you go one more and you just see that someone has just done something

...

that you didn't expect and it, you know, it kind of lifts your day.

...

Yeah.

...

Let me just see we can pull up.

...

A couple of people for

...

bit of our closing comment

...

or

...

even any kind of comment

...

And

...

the

...

it's just

...

multitasking is another thing I do very well.

...

I need a producer.

...

So who wants the?

...

This idea that we create our own luck

...

something that we touched on

...

before.

...

And

...

this

...

central theme of certain serendipity that we've have discussed

...

they are kind of centered

...

on

...

on not just attention and focus and deep interest, but they're also sent on

...

intention

...

and intentional

...

coming back to the

...

the thought that anything can be art.

...

If it's done with the intention of it being art,

...

or actually sorry after some on realize. Or not ...just you did ...with intention or or did it just benefit someone? You know, like a a a clean street benefit someone, but we just take it to granted

...

until the street isn't trained,

...

You know,

...

So maybe that is it if it benefits you,

...

someone else,

...

then it could be a.

...

Well, the idea of what is art, of course, is not for us to discuss because this is something that that has been discussed with a great

...

failure of of a many centuries.

...

But

...

intentional.

...

This is

...

intentional of practice is something that

...

keeps coming back to me as being key.

...

To

...

the performance of art of any kind of art, you know, visual or performance side?

...

Can you

...

tie

...

the idea of intentional

...

and the idea of serendipity?

...

Together somehow.

...

Just to

...

take take it away and and for us to to walk away and think about it because they appear to be

...

at odds. They appear to be mutually exclusive, but I think they have actually very much related.

...

Oh.

...

Oh hard ones. Yeah. I don't I'm not so sure how to pull those two things apart. That you're right. They are kind somehow, ...you

...

know, ...how can you have intentional accidents?

...

That's kind of the the very idea of

...

of preparedness. Right?

...

Yes. And

...

I don't know why I I was thinking about

...

the there's this ...is

...

this kind of cliche that one hears all the time from the world of business

...

or the world of the market and it says that

...

what what we ...what business hates is uncertainty

...

And you know, I hear this as like a kind of mantra

...

all the time you hate uncertainty.

...

There's is going to be legal go uncertain this point can be legislative

...

uncertainty. There's going to be political uncertainty,

...

and the market hates that.

...

Well one of the greatest illusions in management is having control.

...

Yes.

...

So ...I think that they they ...know

...

serendipity and and and the an understanding of that and seeing it and looking out for it,

...

is to understand that uncertainty is the deal.

...

And it's ...you know, I I I always used to laugh when I started hearing this off from, like, that that

...

what the market doesn't like is uncertainty, but my god, what could be more uncertain than the market? Yes.

...

And so

...

creativity comes and and serendipity is about uncertainty.

...

So so the market is rational, predictable and certain.

...

Yes..

...

Anybody who says that they have to be taken enough to the funny farm and and and given a start talking to

...

also did some treatment.

...

So is it is the idea of

...

dealing with uncertainty?

...

In a a positive fashion.

...

And welcoming

...

serendipity is it centered around courage.

...

Oh, absolutely.

...

Courage is the foundation of the of all values in my opinion.

...

And so it it, of course, it you have to be brave to

...

know, to intentionally

...

embrace

...

uncertainty.

...

That requires a lot of guts.

...

And

...

and if the ...there's

...

a ...I I I'm just pair paraphrasing. It's a the the

...

I this quote has always kind of stayed with me is that

...

as

...

if you want to practice

...

any values in life.

...

If you don't have courage, you'll have not

...

so that that encourage is the essential

...

essential foundation of of all value in fact,

...

And

...

I think there's a lot to be said for that.

...

Stephanie, welcome. Good evening.

...

Nice to nice to see you here again.

...

Else. What have you got whatever you got to to

...

throw into the pot.

...

Well, I have been sad that I had to jump on a phone call because I have been ...I was enjoying this discussion, and I and I just jumped back in, but I think

...

First of all, one of my favorite word, serendipity, One of my most favorite? Oh. I think. I do love it. And I think

...

I think the truth is that I think you probably already stated it, but look, we all that we can know.

...

I mean, no.

...

It's a big word to know something. All we can know is I know that I will love my children tomorrow.

...

I'm also fairly confident. I might have moments of irritation, but I know that I would love them.

...

But

...

truth, I plan, but I don't know

...

that things are going to go according to plan.

...

I may hope because maybe it will provide a better outcome for something, but we can't know.

...

And so I think we all sort of have to have some element of being brave in life. Because if we really think about

...

what it to live a life, we are in control very little.

...

And so maybe it's transferring that from brave to just accepting that there are a a whole list of things every day that we don't know.

...

And reaching some point is saying, I guess, in that, and that can be okay. And that be willing to be surprised

...

and be willing to experience their serendipity, which I still think ultimately becomes preparedness meeting.

...

Sort of opportunity, if you will.

...

And sarah it

...

yeah prepared mind. That's right. That's right.

...

That's right. And and, yes, sometimes things happened

...

per chance that perhaps somebody wasn't prepared for,

...

but they were met with sort that luck or whatever you wanna call it and had an opportunity

...

to become prepared in the minute of the opportunity. I mean, life is a ...it's a it's a product it's an ongoing thing. It's a process, and

...

we don't really know what the next chapter is gonna look like. And that's okay.

...

And in fact, it's more than okay. It's the only thing that there is.

...

Well, I mean, honestly, Right? So we mean gonna get okay with it.

...

We.

...

That's

...

I can only know those things that that that ema for me I know that I will be kind to people. I know that I will love

...

my children tomorrow. Right? I know that I will wake up and be grateful for another day. But I can't know

...

the rest of the story. And so I always look forward to those moments of serendipity.

...

Right? Where you go, oh, how this is so much fun to experience something

...

that is happy and joyful and in one of those chance

...

moments.

...

And art

...

has a way of

...

demonstrating to us that, actually, it's okay.

...

I'm sure Jackson Opal

...

would have had one or two interesting comments.

...

Probably

...

Right once

...

over ten or twenty.

...

Yes. Oh yes. You probably. Yeah. We talk for a week. And on on

...

the the very value of,

...

you know, controlled lack of control. You know, we

...

let go of that go the rain, but not completely. I mean, we still love that the horses are racing more or less in the right direction.

...

It's ...and

...

and

...

the value, if

...

if there is if there is direct value in this context,

...

I think, too, under in here

...

Sorry. I'm sorry. Well. There's just a tiny

...

of delay. I apologize. I was not trying to speak over you. I apologize.

...

Not at all. I don't all.

...

Now I'm just kind of getting to the

...

the closing, the closing minutes of of our conversation, and we could

...

you know, go on like this till

...

till midnight. I'm sure. But, but we want. We won't we'll leave

...

we'll leave

...

a few nuggets for

...

for for for next week.

...

Gentlemen

...

Thank you, Stephanie.

...

Gentlemen, if you would care to toss in a few more

...

bits of goodness for for for us to to take away.

...

I I I what I just would throw in this the the the difference between

...

being prepared

...

and being registered.

...

And

...

I always took this shakespeare spear

...

who said

...

hamlet, You know the the readiness is all.

...

And

...

I think that

...

that you cannot be prepared

...

for certain, but you can be ready for it.

...

And I think that

...

it's somewhere in there that I think is born of the keys.

...

Because its nature is

...

you don't know what shape it'll will come in.

...

Exactly. So you can't prepare for it. You can only be ready.

...

Adrian.

...

Yeah. I think one of the things

...

that is

...

I find useful is not to have two expectations, which is the idea of living ahead of where you are.

...

With a a a con ...a

...

preconceived idea and what things should be,

...

which is

...

a kind of block to so ind and block to

...

I think the Dow talk about spotting the

...

tiny quarter of a millimeter of opportunity,

...

and it is that thing of

...

if you're forever

...

somewhere else

...

thinking about the future or not happy because the reality you're experiencing is different.

...

To what your mind has already told you it should be ...you're know you're not gonna see the little court millimeter. You're just minute. Yeah Yeah So that little course

...

And so and so we come to the the end of another

...

chat on the creative farm.

...

And and I thank, again, po

...

theater director, and

...

Adrian Coca

...

composer musician,

...

for the for the time and and good hard.

...

And what you what do you say next week?

...

We talk about that idea that we touched on,

...

but they didn't pick up on and I specifically purposely didn't pick up on it because I wanted to save it from next week.

...

That was moments when, you know, sitting by

...

by the window looking out

...

trains, especially a good for that. Long distance strengths are

...

particularly marvelous.

...

And the idea of

...

day daydreaming and openness

...

and how

...

they relate

...

to the core substance of creativity and generating

...

new ideas which

...

are Steve Jobs. So elegantly put is just connecting things. How about we talk about that next week?

...

Okay.

...

Sounds great fabulous.

...

Thank you,

...

and we will see you next week.

...

Rather you. Shall we say hear you.

...

Thank you so much. Good.

...

Can write.

Fortune Cookie