The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

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The future of entertainment is interactive.

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Transcript

...

Somehow I get

...

unmarried by this by this clapping at the top of this

...

of this gathering good evening tonight, we are

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talking about the cornerstone

...

of creativity,

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and that is

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openness to new ideas and freedom

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to change your mind

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even just when you are up against it on deadline line.

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And it seems the work

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will never be delivered if you do change course

...

My name is Ralph Tar, and it's

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my pleasure to welcome you to the creative farm.

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Were among the seedlings of new ideas and

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the scattered pot plants

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full of exotic,

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ornamental

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you will find

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Paul,

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theater director, and Adrian Cooker composer of

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music for

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fulfillment and television.

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Good evening, gentlemen, it's a pleasure to be with you again,

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Hi.

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Nice to be here.

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Thanks, Ralph. Sorry. It was having technical issues, but I think I'm here. I think I think you are here.

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Or at least your voices. It's it's great to

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great to have your adrian

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as we were discussing today's theme, you mentioned it was

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entirely apt

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as to what you had been doing

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today. What had you been doing today?

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Well, I just said my day job, which

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my stage is writing film music or tv music of these days of these box sets

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that these

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platforms

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are putting out. So

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But when I'm not doing that, which is

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quite often,

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and it has been the last

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few months,

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I work on lots other things and

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So today, I've just trying to

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finish a piece of music that I I didn't really know what it was or

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I mean, I the knew why I was doing it because I wanted to finish it whenever it was, but

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so, yeah, You know, This I mean, the way that for example, in film music that you work is generally the very tight guidelines deadlines.

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And also, just, you know, if you for example, get a bunch of ways in front of you you can't

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have the luxury of rehearsal time and,

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you know, lots of time to finesse ideas so I've got quite used to working fast and you just have to get in the in in the can. Yeah. You trust your intuition and you you know, you build up experience and you kinda go for it. But when I work my own stuff

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it's endless, and the older I get, the more painful it seems to be getting because.

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I guess it's that thing when you know nothing

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it become as easy

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when you know a lot, it's easy and somewhere in between, it's

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it's difficult. And I think that's that's kind of somewhere where I am. But oh the Dunbar and Mister Kroger had something to say about that many years ago. Yeah. It's it's it's too much awareness of what you done and perhaps much awareness of

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of of

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the possibility is that are, but ...I mean, you know, the interesting thing is the something about freedom and I was thinking about it. And

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and actually,

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the thing is that

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quite often,

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I'll do a piece of music. Like I said, and I don't know what I'm trying to do, and this it's it's just a kind of

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determination

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to just clock in the hours that keeps you doing it.

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And

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today, I just suddenly realized or maybe a couple of days ago, what something that I've been doing was and she's

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I've been trying to record a piece of music that was using the different spaces that the players had recorded in as like, composition material.

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And not to

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affect those in any way. So

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there's a piece of nine different recorded spaces on it. And

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it's partly because of lockdown

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that that happened, but it's also ...I'm

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interested in space

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as, like, you know, something that you use as well as notes or rhythm

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And I suddenly kind of realized that even though I didn't know what I was doing

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today, my my, I realized my my own con my subconscious or my con my subconscious

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had kind of been beaver away

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at this i idea. And had a few years ago, and and I was suddenly

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realizing that that's what I've been doing, even though

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I hadn't had I've made that intention at some point

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but I hadn't actually planned and sat down and said, you know, this is the piece of the music I'm doing in there for I'm gonna do it like this.

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So

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Yeah. It's those strange things where ...and I could ...in

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in the kind of summary of of the program i me say it's about not having ...keeping

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your mind open to new ideas,

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but sometimes in not having an idea, you find that you

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you do, but it's a different part of your of your mind that's been working on on on it, kinda beaver in the away while your conscious minds just kind of.

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Yeah. Kind slightly blank almost.

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Well, chuck chuck close, the

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the photographer and the painter,

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some some time ago,

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said something which

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I will inevitably screw up, but the sense will be there

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something along the lines of

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Amateurs

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wait for inspiration

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professionals just show up and get to work.

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And

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that kind of is part of the part of the discipline of

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allowing

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new ideas to emerge, I guess, where you actually don't know

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where you're going, but you just stop start to work and and with a bit of luck, and a lot of effort and persistence it actually does emerge.

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Yeah. I think so.

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Think with the technology well know that a lot of people use

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in all digital and in all art forms, but, you know,

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I obviously make music.

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The computer allows you endless

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iterations of the work you're doing.

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And, you know, in some ways, like, I guess, painting and ...you could just keep painting over the canvas. And I mean, you know, music and your it's the same you could keep changing the manuscript. So in in many ways, it's it's not it's not that different. But there's something about the way that you can inspect what you've done.

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That that gives you the potential to

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you know, endlessly fiddle or would be a kind of negative

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way of looking at it. But,

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you know, the other way is that you've got,

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if you use that creatively rather than just trying to perfect stuff, if you use it to kinda try and create more uncertainties

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as as well as come up try, you know,

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home what's already there. I think he can be quite interested.

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Well, the ...arnold

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the the

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composer a musician.

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Has

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through the pandemic been doing a wonderful thing,

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and that is

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opening up his studio virtually

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to people who are were interested in in his process,

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and he actually threw up

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in a couple of sessions, he threw up

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his portals,

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his, you know, music

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production

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software up on the screen.

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And showed the the the process of, you know, endlessly fiddling as you were saying.

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And to me, it was a wonderful

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illustration

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of

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the the need to find out.

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You have this itch

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and you actually don't know where the damn thing is itching, but you're you're are desperate to scratch it.

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So you have to actually feel around and and and see where it's itching.

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And then with a bit of luck and a lot of persistence, you actually

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do find out where it's itching.

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And

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is that is that more or less how it works for you?

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It varies. I mean, you know, sometimes like someone says how do you compose music and

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I think one of the answers that I've found to be the most honest though, you know, is that you just follow the sound, you know, you make a sound and that same suggests over sound.

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That sounds suggests another sound.

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And, obviously, you know, if you you it can go in all directions, but it's as simple as that really,

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And I think,

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yeah, there's a kind of itch, but as I said, i think, sometimes the itch isn't

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a conscious itch. It's something that you've set yourself

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as a kind of task or most years ago, and you forgot you you set it and your subconscious just has kind of latched onto it and

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kind of just gathers the material,

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and while you're you think your pilots things,

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it's it's it's something that you've forgotten and your subconscious that is kind of

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moving it and actually doing the the grasp of shaping in it.

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This gathering of material is is a thing that comes up again and again, in various forms. Paul, how does that work

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in theater do you have

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no bits of

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paper in your in your pockets and

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countless notebooks floating about and

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newspaper cuttings and notes scribble on the Johnny door. Governor knows, what else? How how does this gathering process of

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ideas?

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Workflow for you in the theater.

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Well, I'm ...probably

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I'm I'm somewhat of an extreme case.

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I

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I never prepare.

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I mean, really, religiously never prepare anything.

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When I come to the rehearsal.

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Now that's not to say that I, of course, hide know I have a plan for

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the general concept I do.

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But

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when I come to rehearsal,

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I really don't have an idea what I'm going to do at all.

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At least not a preconceived one,

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And

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it's been that way for years now.

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When I was in studying, I was doing things like preparing notebooks and preparing rehearsal plans and

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you know, really, like trying to ...and it's just not me.

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But that's that's working with the stuff that you've already gathered up. That's like you have a pile of material,

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and then you whip it into shape and there is the

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there the the the approach, but I'm kind of thinking

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about the step before that step, the step where

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you're walking down the street, and there's a kid running down with it's ...you know, where there's with bike and there's a piece of newspaper that you pick up. And as somehow, the back of your head

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these things con continue without in fact

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much by way of conscious

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intervention

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from you, the

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theater director.

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How does how does how does that work?

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Well, absolutely. I mean just to follow with was saying it it it it it tends to be

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an almost

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unconscious process.

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So, yeah. So

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all these things which I'm feeling and experiencing,

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I think it's more about living

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that that when you

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if you embrace living, if you embrace

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chasing after what's interesting in life,

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that when you walk into the rehearsal room, it all starts to pour out.

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But I think only when

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you

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don't have a

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preconceived plan,

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and there's a

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there's a

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great quote from from one of my professors when I was studying a million years ago in in graduate school, and she said that

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creativity is is only happens in a state of imbalance.

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And

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And I I I I think that's something I've really taken to heart in that

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that planning and

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writing it all down and organizing it. For me, always made it me balanced.

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And in fact, then I couldn't do anything.

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I would become paralyzed.

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But if you if you embrace imbalance as the place for creativity happens,

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that's ...she had a great

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kind of tactic in the rehearsal space, which I have completely adopted into my own practice.

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And this goes like this.

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You're working on a scene.

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And this happens all the time.

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Things are going and the scene is working, and then suddenly

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everything stops the work.

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And you have the situation where all the actors are looking at you and

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no one knows what to do.

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The director doesn't know what to do. The actors don't know what to do. The writer doesn't know what to do.

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Whoever else is in the room, no one knows what to do.

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And this happens all the time, and it's very painful and it's kind of terrifying

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experience

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because it's somehow also

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in the performance situation you're in front of other people who are looking to you.

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And she says at that moment, I always do the same thing.

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Is I take two steps towards the stage

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and say, I know.

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But in fact, you don't know. She has no idea. Yeah no idea.

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And

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I I really took this ...I've I ...this has really become part of my practice.

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Because of that moment, you create a real crisis

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that you you you said, you know,

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inevitably,

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something cracks.

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That the light gets in through that gesture of and that's imbalance because thank you let

...

Yeah. You step forward and and you're you're off balance,

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and then somehow, the the the problem cracks.

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Well, if you're if you're dancing, you're not falling. Right?

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Yeah. You're simply just moving through space.

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What about what about

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preparation for different media? I mean, would you consider

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it ...would you consider it necessary to

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prepare for writing

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as opposed to directing on the spot? Or

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do you when you write, do you just sit down

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and, you know, just one of those

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insane lucky people I hate

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who just sit down and stuff just comes out.

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Of course, I I'm not that one. I

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I ...it

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it it it does all come down, I think, to diligence

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and showing up and and and the long march

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I I really believe that.

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You you were mentioning this quote earlier about,

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you know, amateurs and professionals,

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and

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in the

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in the ...I I've heard this from many the same version of this and many different professions

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And

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so in the in the in the military,

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they say,

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amateurs

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discuss strategy

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and professionals discuss logistics. Yeah. That's right.

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And

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So somehow, I think it's the same. I think in the theater, you know, we say that amateurs

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amateurs just talk about theory.

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And,

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you know, and professionals,

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you know, talk about rehearsal space. Yeah. How's Jim going to get from the stage to

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downs

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without tripping over the furniture.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Now

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without

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without new ideas,

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we just rehash what we've always done forever.

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What's wrong with was with

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relying on on old ideas and repurposing them.

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We'll call it a consistent style.

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Is constant

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discovery,

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necessary to be creative. Or can you be creative by reworking

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more or less the same?

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Piece of work all the time but with where she talked about that the other

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the other week

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in another context,

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I think, paul

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Yes. And.

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Yes.

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I think that that

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yeah. That's a really hard question Ralph, I have to say, because it's very hard to to divide that.

...

Yeah.

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Where does style? And what does style mean even

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Well, this is the thing and how how narrow do you want to go? I mean,,

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you know, I I listen to your your your music adrian And

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while there are

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there are

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certainly common elements in in many of the pieces that you've

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you've written.

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In fact, if I was to describe

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a style

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for you, I wouldn't be able to.

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And I mean, that as a great compliment.

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But there's a there's a there's a certain consistency of approach,

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which, of course, means that

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to a degree, you are repurposing

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a set of ideas and a set of chops.

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Is that how it works?

...

Yeah. I mean, i think it's really difficult to come out with new ideas. I mean, I think ...there

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is a part of the post classical music world called new music. And and,

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you know, by definition, it means trying to create things that haven't been heard before.

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And, you know, I find that very law because, you know, now fifty one years old,

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I've heard quite a lot of combinations

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of music. And,

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you know, my interest tends to keep my passion going I have to kinda find things that, you know,

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for the first time, like hearing something that you never heard.

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I don't go back very often I'm not really an nostalgic person.

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With music,

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even though now gonna succumb to it.

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But, yeah, think ...so there's there's definitely a school of people I work with and I wouldn't necessarily ...I'm not trained like these people who

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that that, you know, the whole culture of that of that world is almost like the

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experimental art world where they're trying to just forever question and and what is music, what is sound

...

But I think where we're at at the moment is that there is huge amounts of looking back. So, you know, there's a lot of art that was created post war

...

in the music world is was never that ...didn't had of a total of those

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and is now being repurposed. Mean I need know, for example,

...

was made a career in

...

taking some of those ideas of

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post war,

...

contemporary

...

experimental music and applying them to pop music,

...

you know,

...

that's kind of what he did. He took some of the approaches to the art schools.

...

Which is on his training all generation the people in in well, he what he wasn't an artist before he was a musician. Yeah. And i think there's a whole generation of musicians in England that did come from our schools. It's not not so the case now.

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But I think

...

So ...so there's a lot of people going back stuff that happen in the fifties or sixties didn't go like, wow. You know, that still sounds like it hasn't been made almost because it was such a niche audience and quite often. They were quite academic audiences

...

or certain parts the art world that it's never reached a greater

...

audience and some of that stuff now is,

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even though it's forty fifty years old, and obviously, the people who are

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still trying to do new forms of music

...

kind of move it on ahead still.

...

I mean, it's it's very

...

I mean, I think quite often. I I don't think I may ...I mean, quite often, I'll get inspired by something even if it's on that subconscious level. And by doing it wrong, you'll create your own mutation of an idea, and that will just about give you authorship a bit.

...

You know, that that's kind of

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quite often what I think.

...

What about what about our relations relationship to time?

...

Because

...

if we read

...

descriptions of lives of artists

...

from

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some decades back the time you're you're you're you're just talking about.

...

Say

...

conversations with Because.

...

A delicious book incidentally, and

...

and I recommended highly.

...

There's often an overwhelming feeling of there being

...

enough time

...

to try new ideas and change one's mind if those

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are not working out.

...

And then in our

...

rushed

...

stress stressed out world,

...

we may be under the impression that we do not have quite the same

...

amount of time that we have to pick a direction and deliver the goods.

...

Except ...I don't

...

think it's necessarily that the the best path

...

towards the most interesting answers are the most creative solutions

...

how can we reconcile

...

the need to slow down with the pressure to speed up?

...

Well, I think

...

to try to answer this

...

tangent general

...

tangent.

...

Well, I can't speak to tonight

...

it is that that this is time day start, the theater and music,

...

And that doesn't just mean that it's the way you experience it.

...

It takes place in a segment of time,

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but it's also how it's made,

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that it requires

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quite a lot of time to make

...

and and it is it is so anti

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it's against modernity in fact,

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I think that it's it's not productive. It's it's actually entirely wasteful.

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But I think in there, is is actually, it's it's kind of essential value.

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So, you know, when, of course, there are deadlines and, of course, things have to get shown and have to get done And have to get finished.

...

And that's part of it.

...

But I do think that that if you look at the whole structure of it,

...

for example, like, you look at a at ...that the way that most of the theaters are set up. I mean, it's just ...it it flies in the face of of any kind of you know, contemporary idea of of of market reality.

...

You know, can you imagine that you would have

...

an ensemble of of thirty actors

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on full salary

...

at your disposal.

...

A team of technicians,

...

numbering in the dozens,

...

months long

...

preparation process,

...

and then

...

there's maybe room for four

...

five hundred people to see it.

...

Then this is really

...

it it's really

...

there's so much wasteful

...

expenditure, not only of of financial resources, but of time and that in order to get

...

the the deal, the magic out of it.

...

So I think this is ...this

...

is this is the is a huge question because whether this can survive and how.

...

I think,

...

you know, I think music is struggling with the same the same problems, but I think for the fear,

...

it's it's really become existential

...

in in the in the modern ...know modern times.

...

Adrian.

...

What about your relationship to time?

...

Well, I think as I've said before, I mean, you know what's really changed in England is, that when I started making music,

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I left university in the early nine few and there was a recession, probably, the last real

...

recession. And

...

obviously, with that, when

...

kinda whole change in structure

...

of how people were working and living, and

...

it was still kind of the age where

...

the consumer culture haven't really

...

taken a grip like it has that. So a lot of people just didn't wanna go out and then money so they could buy things. You know, people had other priorities

...

of which no time if your nice is the most important.

...

And

...

so

...

you know, I I I spent years

...

literally

...

living on,

...

you know,

...

money that I could do with part time work and some governments stuff to be

...

unemployment benefit think because it was called then.

...

And this is after my degree, and,

...

you know, took probably two, three years of just

...

experimenting around and

...

then something happened and other things

...

progressed from that moment.

...

But, you know, I see now, you know, i've she London is is is is in and many other capital cities are in a very different position where from the moment of inception, something has to be

...

rationalized

...

in the sense of how much is it worth and can someone buy it? And

...

and actually, what being happening is can someone buy off you

...

knowing full well that they can sell it to someone else for more money than they're gonna give you or actually gonna take it off you and give you nothing

...

knowing full. I can set it to someone for something else. That's really the ethos of the music industry.

...

And since I started, it's gone from six major labels to three major labels,

...

destruction of a lot of of the sized

...

companies.

...

So

...

Yeah. I think people have so much more pressure to kind of make things happen.

...

And

...

what they ...I mean, this is a bit of generalization, but my sense is that

...

some younger people go straight to the, like, rule book of how you appeal to lots of people.

...

And just dial into that. You know?

...

I mean, today, I'm walking around shortage,

...

I saw

...

there's a shop that is called shrubs and dub and

...

it's selling

...

plants

...

and records in that order. So the thing I'm noticing in London now you can't just sell one thing. So people are pairing strange things, another

...

perhaps more obvious like, you know,

...

bio wine and record stores.

...

And it's just the way that music has been

...

sort of just put ...almost

...

like it's a bottle of wine or a pot plants,

...

and I like both things. You know? I'm not saying to ...but

...

it's just, again, it's that sort of way that the comm keeps

...

changing

...

and

...

the pressure for for younger people to low.

...

You know, make something that is gonna sell

...

is is just immense. And

...

I don't know. I don't know how

...

people do. Well they do it part you know, Like I said, the music is now the equivalent of a pot plant or a bottle of wine in the way we culturally value the work that is done by those people

...

I suspect we're going to have a conversation

...

about

...

where the music business is going

...

fairly

...

soon.

...

One of the issues arising

...

being

...

the the blurring of lines between genres of music.

...

And the big question as to, you know, how do we discover

...

music, but Not tonight. Not tonight.

...

It's coming up for the the four hour

...

So as per

...

promise contained in the fortune cookie

...

just to

...

as they say in other audio environments,

...

reset the room.

...

My name is Ralph Tal, and I'm talking to

...

Paul

...

Director and Adrian

...

Co,

...

composer musician.

...

And

...

this is the creative farm

...

as promised.

...

It's now time to open it up for questions, comments,

...

brick and,

...

So

...

let me just invite some random humans

...

up here

...

from the

...

the the vast

...

gigantic audience we have tonight.

...

Massive. I tell you massive.

...

People are coming in doors and windows. If this were a club,

...

would be set

...

Let me just invite a handful, and please don't feel

...

under any

...

that you have to come up and and

...

speak,

...

but it would be really good if you did.

...

In the meantime,

...

in the meantime,

...

a question that fascinated me

...

because it's one that that's actually dear to

...

my heart as

...

in a previous life

...

photographer,

...

as one of

...

how

...

openness

...

towards new ideas means also openness as to seeing value in objects

...

and ideas which others had discarded

...

Picasso

...

since we were mentioning him before,

...

joked

...

that Cock had

...

apparently,

...

called him the king of garbage

...

due to his fond for collecting of, you know, random bits of rubbish.

...

That's not exactly a new idea, The stone, which the build is rejected has become the chief cornerstone.

...

And

...

I'm

...

particularly in number of of the fact that there's an entire genre of

...

photo art,

...

based around found photographs, and particularly like

...

their potential for weaving stories around the things and people in those photographs

...

Do you

...

enjoy flo?

...

Do you enjoy bits that you

...

hear

...

on on the underground. Do you enjoy

...

collecting

...

images that you see walking down the street?

...

Who wants to take this?

...

Well, I can talk about it from a

...

perspective. I mean, I think the way that law musicians no work with

...

computers is,

...

say, yeah. I mean, so you're not writing pop music.

...

So more in the world, I I am in which is

...

roughly

...

called that music, I guess.

...

You collect sounds. You know, exactly low? You would you would, you know,

...

you're talking about collecting images and cast off.

...

So,

...

you know, you can collect sounds from anywhere and everything.

...

It might be a little ...little

...

three bars at the end of a recording session. It can be a field recording that you recorded on a small handheld recorder walking on streets somewhere

...

few years ago,

...

you know, it can be ...you can grab something off Youtube,

...

some really compressed horrible audio. I mean, I don't do this, But know a lot of people do, and you can use that as material.

...

I mean, there's there's no end to that stuff. And in fact, a compose friend of mine

...

he actually calls ...what

...

does he ...he calls pieces where you literally cobb stuff together from the off cups he calls it. So it's not cast

...

is the idea that, you know, you bought you would

...

to, like, build a particular

...

object Yeah. And at the end of it, there's just these little bits that you didn't use, but might be quite interesting.

...

You know, I've find that quite a lot. You'll do recording sessions.

...

And you'll just have these bits., yeah, that's just a little thing that was kind of interesting, but it's not enough on its own,

...

and They just sit on a hard drive somewhere,

...

and

...

it's just such a lovely way describing it because I I work like that. Sometimes, you know, if I haven't got the budget to go and do a big recording session. I'll I'll go into my

...

off cuts folders and

...

Yeah. So absolutely.

...

Exactly what you said. I find it a very,

...

you know, a very kind of intriguing way of of of doing work.

...

Judy,

...

Justin welcome.

...

What would you like to

...

throw into the discussion?

...

Around new ideas and

...

and

...

old the ideas.

...

And you're related to creativity.

...

Yeah. Thanks for having me up. It's interesting where the conversation kind of evolved because my brain was already down this path, and

...

I was kind of thinking about

...

The idea of,

...

you know, all the cooking shows it keep be became really popular, all of a sudden for everything to be, like, deconstruct,

...

I don't know if you could like, a deconstruct taco.

...

And so i ...when I saw this this space here and looking at new ideas,

...

think about how can we repurpose ideas

...

from, like, a creative standpoint? Yes, like sampling different songs, or pieces of creative work, you know, kind of bringing it together. But what about

...

deconstruct the experience?

...

Of the art itself,

...

which I think we're already starting to do more, but not just deconstruct it, but, like, finding those individual pieces of the experience that work.

...

And just kind of, you know, cobb that together, like, cobb the experience together,

...

as much as, like, the actual piece of art itself or, like, what's in front of you. And I think that's like the real new idea like moving forward in the arts especially is how do you

...

shape an experience?

...

That's ...I

...

don't know it's like a wedding, you know, they new something old, something, whatever it is,

...

that kind of idea. So that's kinda what's going on in my mind right now. So so

...

bundling

...

of sorts.

...

To use user software software.

...

Okay. Judy,

...

before before we throw ourselves into in into answering that,

...

Judy, let's let's hear it from you.

...

Hello.

...

So great to meet everybody.

...

This is my first minute or two on this app. So thanks for having welcome

...

stage,

...

And I would just add from

...

starting my career as an engineer and also having a engineer a father and an artist as a mother.

...

Really merging the left and right side of the brain and being able lucky thing you.

...

So

...

being able to connect the dots

...

is so powerful and we have to spend time with that term bumbling. I loved that. So

...

I was trying to follow everything everyone was saying onstage stage, and you all are just incredibly smart. So thank you for sharing all of your thoughts. And we we do what we can. You know?

...

I will just sit over here, but I I got my degree in chemical engineering, and I think being able to visualize

...

molecules

...

has been the reason why that part of my career was successful, and now I am more on the

...

potentially artistic or the creative side of how do you get people to engage with leadership

...

and how to get a voice

...

amplified. So it's very interesting that I both sides. So

...

Alright. You guys can carry on the conversation.

...

You. No. No. That's that's very cool. And I I love that idea of

...

marrying the

...

you know, the the rational

...

cool headed engineer, of course, I know many engineers and many of them will would would really

...

rebel against that idea.

...

That's the we have with the

...

the artist's approach of ...let's just see what happens if

...

Adrian Paul, what do you think chap, the ideas of

...

band experiences?

...

And then bumbling through experiences in order to create

...

new things.

...

Well, you know, i've I I thought it it was interesting what Judy said about the right and the left side of the brain, which she's not exactly answering what you asked,

...

like come around that.

...

I mean, you know, because I did a a law degree in my late thirties

...

long story. I've been teaching composition.

...

Anyway, I did a year and a half law degree in eighteen months, and

...

it really repurposed my brain. I'd always been an artist the the literature degree and having suddenly a concentrated,

...

deeply

...

systemic logical

...

information based system, like, that I had to assimilate

...

really radically changed how I

...

perceive things, and I found that after that, I didn't wanna do a law degree.

...

I did. Sorry, I didn't wanna become a lawyer That was never in intense

...

but my way of hearing insane changed massively because

...

I think in the same way that I've been

...

trained to

...

assimilate and process of astronauts information,

...

certain types of music, no longer kind of really

...

got me going, and I needed something that was profoundly more. And

...

that sort of was the catalyst to some of the things that I'm doing now.

...

And I agree, you know, quite a ...I mean, then a lot of what I see now is the most amazing things of people who have got science

...

and,

...

you know, are coming from,

...

yeah, scientific engineering backgrounds

...

who are making music

...

and

...

I don't see much the other way, unfortunately,

...

because I think that would be awesome ...I think ralph you've touched on this, that would be ...you

...

know, that's an interest in transition. The other way that might be able to benefit business and the way we, you know, operate those kind of

...

parts my society.

...

But there is a huge influx of people

...

who are, you know, like Judy coming from engineering scientific backgrounds,

...

and

...

what what they're doing is incredible. I mean, you know, mentioning

...

molecules, one of the things when I first started making music with computers,

...

I realized that there was

...

computer programs that

...

instead of seeing sound as waves or lines

...

could you could generate sounds as like dots almost like

...

you know, gas particles, and you could

...

create random

...

events that would make these

...

particles move around.

...

And

...

this is scientific, you know, this is scientific methodology,

...

and I was using some of that, and then I'd put that information in front of the string you'd find ways of rotating something.

...

That was, first of all, a scientific concept and you give it two four acoustic musicians.

...

And the translation would be the point, you know, Channel, they got it. This was like a private language between between you.

...

No. Was.

...

So, you know,, it wasn't located dated. I

...

stage and stuff. But I mean ...so,

...

yeah, I think

...

and I was bumbling, you know, about of Bumbling, and I was definitely bumbling.

...

I didn't know what I was doing, but I was just interested. Can you do this? I didn't

...

understand maybe the scientific

...

principles behind a lot of this stuff but I could hear it,

...

and

...

So ...yeah. And like I said, earlier, I think, sometimes in doing things

...

in an imperfect way, you do just enough to be able to claim off the ship of the.

...

Well, well, it's

...

it's a poorly kept secret within this ...they they are scientific.

...

Inventor communities that some of the key breakthroughs

...

in in thousands of cases

...

it come about when the person

...

in question was working on something unrelated or

...

indeed entirely

...

by accident.

...

Genius

...

in part,

...

it saves lies in an ability to recognize

...

those signals when they appear.

...

I mean, fleming genius play in asking why the bacteria had died

...

without that freedom to ask why, someone else would have found pen.

...

So this openness

...

is something that needs to be with you at all times because

...

it's kind of like a ...it's kind of like a muscle unless you train it. It loses

...

it's

...

strength and flexibility. Doesn't it?

...

Yeah. I I think that there's ...also,

...

maybe a little

...

danger in using the word bumbling.

...

Because I ...although I don't disagree with it entirely.

...

I do think that it's also

...

another way to think about it is is about the the state of presence that you're in, and I've often heard

...

a different metaphor, which is hunting

...

and so that you're or sift

...

or digging

...

So something more active,

...

bumbling suggests maybe some cl which maybe is necessary

...

It probably is.

...

But it there's also the intention,

...

that you're hunting for something and you don't know what it is or where it is, but that presence of mind

...

where you're looking for every little clue

...

well, you're trying to track the traces, the the smells, the tiny little things that will lead you in the right way.

...

And I think that goes back to what you were talking about earlier

...

looking for through the

...

the the little bits and pieces,

...

but the flo some and the

...

things that are lying about on the streets.

...

And I think what for me, when

...

the the things that I take and the things that I collect

...

that found

...

those found objects.

...

It's because they're they're actually signs

...

that lead me into something deep.

...

And I can't see the deep thing, but I can feel it. And that little sign is the one little key

...

which will which will lead lead me into it?

...

And I think that comes from

...

I I it's I had hesitate to use the word too much, but it does come from a kind of instinct.

...

But it it is I I whatever it is, it's something it's something subconscious.

...

Oh, we were we were talking about intuition and and

...

see last week,

...

and

...

I would

...

I would

...

encourage

...

the the listeners to one

...

check out that conversation because it was particularly interesting.

...

Around the idea of intuition and instinct and where does it come from?

...

And how exactly do you

...

develop it? And how long does it

...

does it take?

...

Let's

...

switch

...

for a moment to the subject of changing your mind.

...

Because

...

that is naturally part of the process. And

...

there are instances many

...

and frequent

...

when

...

you know, chipping away I and it

...

seems to be working, but it just doesn't

...

really

...

want to get any better,

...

and the deadline is looming.

...

And people are waiting for you to deliver, and then you realize actually, this is all a pile of crap. I need to start over.

...

What about the the courage to do that?

...

I mean, I don't think it is coaching certain ways in that you go okay. If people got hear this,

...

that is all the that's told encouragement. Sometimes you need that

...

you don't want those

...

failed experiments to be the things that,

...

you know, become,

...

you know, out there. So

...

i mean, obviously, that they do happen, you know? But,

...

generally, I find deadlines are really good for that because they just ...they

...

just sort of do something. Don't know if it's the adrenaline, I don't know whether it's. Whatever the process is, it just sharpen everything.

...

And decisions are made

...

just ...there

...

is a kind of ...there's a ...there's a sharpness to the way that things work

...

but you know, as well, there is limitations to that in the ...as

...

I said, you know,

...

you have to do things quickly and things can't sometimes be finesse. Depending on what you're trying to do,

...

you can't

...

I find that I can't do everything like that. And my own word process

...

away from guidelines deadlines

...

it I i I almost have to impose my own deadlines,

...

which is what I just done on a piece that is not got anyone's sent to me, come on. You've gotta do this the next week.

...

And I find that even that can be enough to just sharpen up

...

my kind of create

...

my my faculties my critical faculties

...

to just

...

make it

...

happen.

...

This is while you are working

...

on your own composing.

...

Yeah. What about

...

pull? What about

...

when you've got half a dozen actors on

...

the stage or, you know, in your rehearsal

...

space, and you're trying something and it kind of works, but really, it's just not good enough.

...

And

...

the curtain,

...

is going up all soon, and then you realize, actually, we have to scrap this

...

and start over,

...

What do you do?

...

You get out your knife.

...

And start flushing.

...

Yeah

...

Yeah. I think that ...because this this is this is like

...

has been a kind of constant,

...

at least in my process and also, in some of my collaboration,

...

it seems like the arc of the process is

...

research,

...

and then a lot of generative work where you're making tons of material.

...

And the generative part is is fun.

...

You're making stuff.

...

And

...

and, of course, the actors

...

sometimes really all in love with stuff you fall in love with stuff. Like all this is so brilliant. This is so great. Oh, we have to use this.

...

And then

...

the the the logic of the process starts to

...

reveal itself.

...

And the question of what will you're really trying to say with it, what the piece wants to say.

...

And you realize that you've got probably seventy percent too much material.

...

And

...

then the ...I think the real

...

at least for me, this was when I felt like I finally crossed over and could say I was an artist was when I learned how to start to say no and start to start to cut and to be really ruthless about it.

...

The eleventh commandment was thou shalt edit of Yes.

...

And I think that that the the

...

what come what's left,

...

which we show to the audience and that deadline is what know really focuses the mind.

...

Is is the ability to be absolutely

...

ruthless in

...

even to the things that you found

...

incredibly

...

wonderful to make and dear

...

that they had to be ultimately, some of those things have to go have to be sacrificed because they just don't serve

...

the idea anymore. Mhmm. And I know that

...

this is excruciating

...

for the actors.

...

Or the dancers as it as as it has often been medication in my more recent work

...

that

...

the the piece keeps changing

...

constantly

...

right up until the the eleventh hour.

...

And

...

and that's that's nerve wracking as a performer because you have perform it it's very difficult to to put your feet on the ground and know what you're supposed to do when it's constantly

...

in the process of

...

of cutting and rearranging and changing our minds right up pencil the last hour. This creates a tremendous anxiety

...

And I think that it takes courage to do that, but I I always have felt that the that the performers have the ...have to have the the greatest measure of courage

...

because they have to really endure

...

the uncertainty in the worst way. Which is they're the ones that are gonna go face the audience, and they have to remember what they're supposed to do.

...

Yeah.

...

I can

...

I can also picture

...

situations where it is the the client or the the commissioning,

...

the commissioning body,

...

who keeps changing his or its

...

mind.

...

And, of course, it's it is the client's prerogative

...

and we all have have enough such stories to last more than a couple of programs.

...

A few years ago, I finally delivered a large book project, which took five years of work

...

in the meantime,

...

they client throughout the concept three or four times.

...

And

...

being the other patient book producer, I, of course, redesigned the whole thing

...

here hilariously enough, the final version as it turned out

...

was almost exactly the design I'd proposed at the very start.

...

But sometimes you need to go in a big circle to end up in the original path

...

to realize that it was the right path to begin with.

...

The sorts of

...

strings of of of decisions

...

are endless really because you don't stop just because you've had the premiere night. I mean, you realize, actually,

...

there are things that don't work, and there are things that could work better.

...

Isn't that? Isn't that the case?

...

Oh, absolutely.

...

Absolutely.

...

The ...you can't let go other the piece of the premiere.

...

Because

...

you suddenly have it exposed to an audience, and that's an entirely different element.

...

No. Battle client ever survives

...

first contact with the enemy. Right? Exactly.

...

And

...

there's been so many times where ...I've I've tried to stay as much as I could with the piece at least for three or four

...

performances.

...

In order to give notes and make adjustments

...

because you ...suddenly the audience,

...

which is this

...

great soft and deeply intelligent beast that's sitting out there

...

is ...it suddenly reveals all the all the other flaws in the piece that you couldn't see without them.

...

And those have to be corrected.

...

And adjustments have to be made.

...

And so, yeah, It doesn't stop.

...

And then if you're lucky and you made something good,

...

that has legs as they say. Yeah. And it has a long life.

...

Well then the real starts. The real beauty start unfold because then the the performers get it in their body. They get it in their life

...

and then the piece takes a whole new direction. It becomes richer and deeper

...

in ways that you can't ...you could never have headed in in the making of it.

...

This is the creative farm,

...

my names Ralph Tom, and

...

It is my pleasure to be talking

...

as

...

I do every Monday night.

...

With paul budget and Adrian Coca.

...

We have a few minutes left,

...

so we'll be

...

wrapping up before too long, But what shall we talk about next week chats? Because I have an idea, but for a change,

...

I'd love to hear what

...

you you think might be an interesting

...

talk to take.

...

I like I like

...

Justin's

...

and comments about kind of

...

the

...

the experience

...

because

...

I think we're living in

...

in this era of Covid and which has deeply affected

...

the live arts

...

and has forced us to re engineer

...

the experience of what we're trying to make.

...

And I think that deserves

...

episode to talk about.

...

I think that's not really excellent idea.

...

Adrian, you do you conquer concur? I do. Yeah. I think that that would be a

...

a pretty rich topic. I mean, you know, in music, that's happening.

...

So much to ...some has changed in in the twelve months, and

...

some of these changes already becoming normalized.

...

So ...yeah,

...

but they will continue to change. And, you know, yeah, Maybe we should discuss that Definitely

...

very cool.

...

Cool. Let's do that next week. And in that case,

...

let's wrap this up, and thank all

...

Well, our multitude

...

of audience here

...

they hear the many humans with

...

patiently sat through our conversation. Thank you for your attention.

...

Same time. Same station next week.

...

And in the meantime, keep well.

...

We're a mask, and

...

have a good night. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Good night.

Fortune Cookie