The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.

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The future of entertainment is interactive.

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Transcript

...

Good

...

evening.

...

Listener,

...

suggested

...

last week, Justin, I believe that we take on the

...

complicated

...

subject of

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the experience of

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performing out

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quite a theme, really?

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If we consider the many moving parts,

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even at the level of individual artists,

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never mind

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production companies venues,

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festive organizers, retailers of products in the many types of administration funding,

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management professionals.

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The arts

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are a vast business so vast, for example,

...

that the economy of the Uk would have been knee

...

without them over the last decade. So,

...

of course, thank to the

...

stupidity in Of Brexit,

...

the Uk economy will now need help

...

that even the creative sector can't provide, especially

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as the level of red tape and cost

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involved, and, for example,

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touring,

...

Uk band or a theater production

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the continent has now gone from

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minimal

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to

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incomprehensible

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complex

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just

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as the industry is also kneeling from the effects of Covid.

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All this

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of course, against a backdrop of

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public desire for music and performance, not decreasing any, but rather

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growing as people

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look for ways to get closer to art.

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So welcome to the creative farm. My name is Ralph Talent, and

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I'm here

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in the shed

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with the Adrian Cooker,

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composer and musician

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and Po,

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theater director,

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and we're trying to separate the week from the chat

...

chat

...

choose to be with you again.

...

And.

...

Pleasure you to be here ralph as always.

...

Band

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has been a phenomenon very much

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at play in many other areas of life from financial services.

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Where you don't

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necessarily buy your retirement funds from the same bank as your credit card

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to advertising, where

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full service agencies have long waged battles against

...

small specialized shops that do one or two things only and do them very well.

...

It's hard to imagine how that might work for individual artists

...

so to begin with perhaps, let's start with

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larger entities stared as clubs,

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cinemas,

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what I I we ...are

...

we seeing

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the lines separating

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the different components?

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Of what they have to offer the public. Are we seeing those lines getting

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wider?

...

Well, I mean, from my point of view,

...

I mean, some of the things that were already

...

were already in played before, Covid. So I mean,

...

cinemas

...

because of, you know, the box that,

...

phenomenon

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were becoming

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sort of less used

...

and

...

you know, I think that

...

just

...

in terms of music

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and and why I write music for film is my day job.

...

That hasn't changed

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too much. In fact. Obviously have a lot done. You know, it's some things that has been fairly robust in terms of.

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People can continue still to work, and actual remote working, which was

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in play before

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has become just more normalized than everyone is now used to file sharing in, recommend with people in

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different time zones, different spaces, and they can some reproductive

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new forms of collaboration. I fine from that, but

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as for audiences. I mean, I remember talking to someone a few

...

months ago, and there was son they'd already had

...

there's always kind of fatigue with screens that,

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you know, the

...

sort of phenomena at the beginning of damage people would invited to to special screenings or or events.

...

On we spend all day

...

day, looking at these damn pieces of glass. Right? Yeah. And i I mean,

...

I

...

try and minimize that myself. But obviously, the last year is become almost impossible since it's been a major way of connection with the outside world.

...

So I think, you know,

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it's that weird thing that there's a positive

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acceleration of the there's a potential positive trend with a continued acceleration and the digitization of everything.

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But I do think that, you know, people

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obviously ...that, you know, it's obviously very obvious point

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things like music and a film. I mean, I was thinking this today that, you know, so many films

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now on Netflix are designed for the experience of a small screen, and it's such a different

...

art form having headphones on or a small screen to like being in a cinema

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with a print a beautiful print of a film

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whether a digital or not,

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with a sound system and

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I I ...you know, I just hope that

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those physical spaces, which they're economic at the end of the day, I think like I said in,

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previous of these discussions in London,

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the

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time and space afforded for business and artists has become premium

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which means that only the things that appeal most directly to most people quickest seem to survive.

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I mean, there are noble exceptions in London.

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Before lockdown, there's a place called Cafe, which is a

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a small run space in Austin, which is been really the center of

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a lot of the interesting and strands of new music and experimental music coming out of London.

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But, you know, I mean, I guess I I I'm kind of at a point where I'm just still

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not sure how the physical world and this new world that we've

...

sort of created over the last year are gonna coexist going forward.

...

Well, this is this is exactly the

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the the crux of the matter, we have to

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re reimagine before we can

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engineer and

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strictly for detail would and rightly point out that half the reason we find ourselves in all kinds of trouble

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is that we fail to imagine sufficiently well before

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moving right onto

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the

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engineering bit, but I'd digress.

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So let's imagine. Let's imagine. I mean, let's really see how far we can

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dream up

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alternative futures.

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What

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the

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experience might look and feel like

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because the required technology will no doubt become available rather sooner than later.

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And

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anyway, it's always easy to find investors for technology once a market has been

...

already imagined, so,

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what might these

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un unfold

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reimagine experiences actually

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look like?

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And we will open up for

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for questions and discussions at the top of the hour, and I'm hoping that

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our listeners will we'll pipe in.

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Let your imaginations run wild chats,

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How's you imagination nice tonight?

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It's it's

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in this strange place,

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which is generally where where my imagination lives.

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You know, I was thinking that

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since with ...I'm talking to London and and and

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I've always been

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a student of of

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the theater of William Shakespeare

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that, you know, the plague was a very important part of that theaters

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life.

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They have the plague like, all the time. Yeah. Literally.

...

So ...and there were ...there were major

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moments in shakespeare's career where the theaters, all the theaters in London were closed.

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And so

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for sometimes multiple years.

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And so the

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I don't think you could take the incredible flower of of that that theatrical moment, which is shakespeare and many others.

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Outside the context of this of the legs somehow. And I I've been thinking a lot about that about trying to imagine

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what it's gonna look like on the other side

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of this one.

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Given also that we're in the middle of this enormous

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and ever expanding,

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exponentially expanding technology revolution evolution.

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Which is already shaken up everything.

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But I also think that

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the denial of the live experience that this plague has brought us

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is has built up a huge reservoir of need.

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In the audience

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to

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have that experience again,

...

I think people have a real longing for that kind of gathering and community and to share a live experience together. And I in my pot more positive moments,

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I think that one way to imagine what we'll come next

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is an audience, which has been digitally

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touching

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the theater.

...

But

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missing the cares of the live experience

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in a deep way. And when this

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plague finally passes away, and we can return to the theater. I think there's gonna be a real awakening

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and remembering how important it is

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examination and read

...

much the word I'm looking for. I think to fall love again, I think people will. I think people will rush back

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to have that experience again because it's been denied.

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They're going to be looking for

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experiences

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because large

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or because the small and intimate.

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Where's is it going to head you think. Also keeping in mind

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economics of it all.

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I have a feeling that it will go to the small and the intimate.

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I think that

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it will be the kind of reaction to the

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the law isolation

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that people will want the most intimate experience possible,

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and there were

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there was a whole movement

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before pandemic of

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total immersion theater

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or in

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theater where the audience and the performers are ming

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where you could find yourself, you know, moving through

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a building that had multiple rooms and had multiple performers

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being with the audience, and this was very popular.

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I have a feeling things like that will be

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will be in huge demand again.

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But I also imagine, you know,

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my world, which is the those the one hundred seat black box,

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which I think is sort of the heart of the

...

the intimate theater experience. I think this will have a renaissance too.

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People will love it to be back in a tight space.

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Really close to the to what's happening in front of them or around them. I think this is this will be an enormous thing. And I think also,

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that

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because of the digital

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reality, so many theaters have have put their material online in a way that never existed before.

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Leaders have put their archival

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performances online theaters have made performances for online audiences,

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digital productions,

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and this is grown the audience.

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People

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who never would have had the chance or wouldn't even have thought to and counter theaters

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in the wild open spaces of the Internet. They found them.

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And I think you can you at all guess

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at how they may have found them? Because

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you know, I'm sure it's not just firing up Youtube and pressing the first thing that comes up because you don't know

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what you're looking for.

...

Well, he here's an example. I can just give about Poland because that's where I live and where I'm working.

...

And so, you know, the the the theaters are

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are concentrated in the big cities.

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So like warsaw got, like, eighteen or nineteen

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major theaters.

...

And the rest of the country in the smaller cities in smaller towns we've got very little or none.

...

And so

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and it still is somehow a big deal to go to the city

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and somehow it's intimidating to, like, go to the city and hope but what theater should I go to?

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Whereas in the safety of your own home on the Internet,

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people were discovering the theater for the first time.

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Through social media.

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They said, wow. You know, I can go see a show and warsaw off.

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And and become acquainted with that ensemble and acquainted with that direct there. And then I think this is ...this is what the ...when

...

when the pandemic does end,

...

I think there's gonna be a whole new audience is gonna be coming in from the provinces

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and the small towns and the villages

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actually, for the first time probably in their lives to go into the one of those buildings.

...

I really think that.

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So

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in your marketing terms,

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you think this

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experience

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of the last fourteen. However, many months

...

has been in effect

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and opening of new

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target markets that hadn't been touched by

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the the mainstream theaters for whatever reason.

...

I do. I mean, that ...you know, in in in the language of marketing, I do. And I know I know it's true because

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I know people who work in some of the larger theaters and More, for example.

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Like, I know some people, for example, that work at Tia sharia, which is one of the main and most famous of the big theaters in in Poland.

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And

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they

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I was listening to an interview with one of their producers

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and

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they were

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having a real financial

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success with online broadcasting,

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and they were getting an entirely new audience to come to watch that. And all these those are good news.

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They didn't not. That this is an audience They did not have before.

...

And they said they said that also, the future

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for them

...

will be

...

a a return, of course, to live performances

...

but they will also be continuing

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making special digital performances that are only for broadcast.

...

So the do you think the form factor

...

changes

...

to the medium.

...

Do you think that

...

the

...

The digital world is perhaps not best suited to the

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three act one and a half hour performance where you sit down and

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immerse your yourself and it have you noticed that?

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Shall we say a briefing or a shortening of

...

of

...

the

...

the the the format itself.

...

Well, that's that's been an ongoing process.

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For many other reasons before pandemic. And before the move to Digital,

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there ...this ...we call it the great compression.

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And, you know, when you make

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because so much of the of of the work and the theater is also about mobility, so it's if you make a piece that's successful, then it you get it into the festival circuit.

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And the festival curator have been saying now for more than a decade.

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Like, at first, it was

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don't come to me if it's more than ninety minutes.

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And then

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Now they say don't come to me. If was more than an hour.

...

And so, like, this was already like,

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a process which was in place, which I think the digital probably has only

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only made worse.

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I think then we're already making like, oh, no one will sit and watch that.

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For then you have have a forty five minute opera.

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I wouldn't be shocked if this is ...it says people are considering that But, you know, it's like, I also think that there that there will be ...like, there always is a counter movements.

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And people will

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say, well, I don't want

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a ninety minute or a a

...

forty five minute bridge

...

I wanna go sit in the live Boris, forrest his governor know from speed.

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Yeah. I don't want it. I wanna go sit for six hours and watch Christina Move.

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You know? Like, that's what I want. And I I wanted to be to to have that kind of live experience.

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Because we haven't been able to have it.

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So are we going to be seeing

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extensions

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of

...

experience? Not necessarily just

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engineering in a

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technical sense. Well, of course, I mean, the technical sense is

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something that is inherent.

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But

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I and extension into,

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for instance, different environments,

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and the different sets of

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aligned experiences going along with

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the core experience of the performance.

...

Yeah. I think I mean, the think after two thousand and eight, I noticed just happened did London, I think.

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There was ...there was a younger

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generation of artists and musicians who

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when we're kind of excluded the various reasons from the mainstream

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venues. So

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they just repurposed. They found

...

venues

...

for example, there's a car park in beckham,

...

and,

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you know, some very

...

amazing, you know, some experimental music festivals

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were held there

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in the summer,

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you know, on that there's a roof on top of the bar of amazing user london, but then there's the different

...

levels of the car part where there was different acts and

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that was a direct response think to like, you know, these places that had been

...

traditionally,

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at one point, you know, possible for a younger generation generation rights to perform them working.

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We'll we're kind of cut off after two thousand. So they're just families that that weirdly

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in London and a few years ago, the problems actually staged one of their concepts from very same car park, which was like full circle. You know?

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The many people that seem kind of excluded in a lot of the younger artists even though you know, i think it is changing there.

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Had basically taken this

...

idea of,

...

you know, working in venues that were always,

...

you know, no ever works and I don't say for two thousand and eight. I mean, maybe in in New York in the nineteen seventies, that kind of stuff would have happened. But

...

I mean, I think

...

as well for me, there's two things that I've noticed she's

...

you know, the borders go up between countries economically and, you know, obviously, in terms of how the school,

...

a lot of uncertainties to wear and how travel will be allowed.

...

And As just said, rough know the cost

...

of any large

...

you know, creative project moving freely

...

around Europe is is definitely not easy know.

...

So I mean, you know, I think,

...

there's two two things that potentially ...I'm all seeing one is that,

...

obviously,

...

people have connected virtually and

...

various reasons can't because you could be in the same space, we'll just find new creative

...

pass I'm working currently

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with a Japanese composer to kim Abe, and I've never been to Japan. I've only ever brought to to Puma on

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Skype,

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and never sat and said this was space of him, but we've coordinated

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a concert for online where his music

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should be no it in a a conventional way will be

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sent to musicians in London and other parts of Europe and don't perform it and we'll record it. He will send

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you will give precise instructions,

...

and the musicians will film themselves doing it in various ways. It will be sent and then experimental Japanese film,

...

director

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our these buttons into piece.

...

So, you know,

...

I come back to Japan. He can't come to England even if you could can actually travel there at the moment to

...

do the Olympics or they will shortly, which I think is a bit of the bone attention for

...

Japanese people Taught to.

...

So I think, you know, that, which is an obvious thing, the idea that the distance

...

will not economically

...

And

...

in other ways, maybe we have to be bridge. So, you know, you push ahead and find new ways of pla. And the other thing I think is

...

you know, for so long, there's been very few spaces, say in London,

...

and a lot of people

...

trying to put on work

...

Now obviously since Covid, there's a a lot of uncomfortable basis,

...

and there's actually even more people wanting to put on work. And in the past they had to

...

you know, work around Europe. And I think, obviously, that is not gonna happen so easily. So

...

maybe we're gonna go back hope it was when I remember, London in the nineties after the last real

...

financial crash,

...

which was

...

you know, London was a wash with small venues and and clubs and

...

the West end and Soho and even some of the more kind of celebrity areas where,

...

there was parties everywhere, and it was because of the recession,

...

there was cheap space available for people.

...

And people were quite happy to have their

...

their,

...

you know, their sort of second story

...

office block on Saddle Row or, you know, in the middle of Sent James,

...

turned into a nightclub club for one night because I needed a bit of money.

...

Tails downstairs theirs, my

...

Actually wasn't saddle right. I was said somebody it it was German Street, which is nearly the same. It's far america's downstairs.

...

Exactly. It was on

...

players know.

...

So, you know, and that would be amazing if suddenly around London, you know, there is hundreds of smaller little events

...

because there's a space for it and the artist for it,

...

but there's been a kind of there's been a sort of block on

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how people where people can perform

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because of

...

you know, the economics of space more than anything else. So,

...

you know, I'd love to see a lot of this talent, which is international still in London,

...

you know, being able to just do whatever it is they wanna do in every area because there's a need friend. I mean, where I am as well as,

...

Think as I've said, the first social has in the state in Europe,

...

and it was built on William Morris principles, So it's

...

kind of communal spaces and there's a bands stand

...

not far from where I live with a big rough ton end.

...

And, you know, people just naturally

...

going into that space and giving concerts.

...

And,

...

you know, I think just more of that would be an amazing thing, you know, for creativity you'd see back into the just the the the just the basic

...

blood of the city and for not to be something you go to at night and pay a certain amount of money or you can do it at night as well. But, I mean,

...

These so general blurring of lines

...

are all up and down and the cross between

...

where

...

art happens

...

how it happens,

...

who pays for it who stage it what tech

...

is or isn't used,

...

it sounds to me like we're actually

...

the cusp of an explosion of creativity.

...

It could be ...I mean, you know, there's definitely been a lot of online

...

there's an online explosion, but the problem with that is because of this

...

this j didn't that people have of having all information coming through a screen.

...

But, you know,

...

just the ...I mean, just once when you sent for a piece of music now online,

...

there was a time when something a piece of music someone was seen as a gift, and it was, like,

...

receive like that, whereas i music

...

because of the sheer

...

amount of it that is available online. When you stands someone piece music, feels like you're slightly invited the space, which is a direct for in a sixty degree

...

difference from how I

...

received and, you know, listened and shared music. Oh, I don't know. I I I love I love receiving packages of music from

...

from my musician friends, but maybe that's just because I'm strange. But I can I can I can see that this would be like,

...

possibly

...

stepping into the territory where, you know, someone wants to sell you something,

...

and you don't necessarily

...

have an inclination to buy it. But I think in the physical real the physical real world, there's those various drop because

...

each

...

experience essentially has a different

...

set of,

...

you know, variables, and it it's it's real whereas online no about how much you change.

...

You know, the interface and what you're

...

doing is all coming through the screen sitting in your home.

...

And last year, at least. So, yeah, yeah know, It's an obvious point that

...

why wouldn't you get Jade in receiving

...

you know, creative work through this very limited port or all the time, which your first was, like the convenient thing.

...

And, you know, has had many beautiful beneficial effects, but there's a big world out there that at the moment is

...

a lot of spaces that we were using for things are now probe. So

...

maybe we just shift that back out into real world. I mean, how you made money out of that, you know, but

...

that would be at least to start. I think. So we're we're we're all figuring this out,

...

which is, of course, look

...

uniquely

...

limited to

...

the creative

...

world. I think

...

we the the

...

collectively way

...

are figuring this out, but

...

Let's not get too philosophical.

...

This is the creative farm.

...

I'm Tom, and I'm here with Paul,

...

and Adrian Cooker, and we are

...

discussing

...

the

...

possible futures of

...

performance,

...

how it may be

...

redesigned, re reimagine, and re engineered.

...

And I need to mention I need to mention that

...

we have a a telegram channel people

...

we have a telegram channel where

...

you can drop in and

...

send your break

...

or what whatever.

...

And I ask

...

questions of of

...

the the guests

...

or just

...

comment

...

voice off on on

...

matters arising

...

out of our discussions.

...

And the address before I forget, and not surprisingly,

...

is t dot me, which is the abbreviated

...

Url for telegram.

...

Forward slash. And here we go.

...

That creative farm all one word.

...

How is that for a surprise?

...

It's the top of the hours as promised.

...

Let's ...let's open this up. Let's drag some

...

random humans up here on on stage,

...

I think, Erica,

...

let's say we can

...

Coe,

...

Erica to

...

give us a few a few comments.

...

And and I've got my glasses on, but the writing in this app is so

...

so tiny. Is it joy? I think it's joy.

...

Let's ...it is Joy, Let's drag you up here if you wish, don't feel like you have to

...

But if you'd like to, please please join us. And Justin, I think

...

saying as if I remember correctly,

...

This was your idea last week. I'll drag it up here as well. And let's see if we can

...

have have a bit of a chat.

...

Paul, how exactly do you make a theater digital? I mean,

...

you still need somewhere for actors to perform

...

even if you have no audience in the house,

...

or do they ...you know, have you seen performances where actors were actually physically

...

distant.

...

People still need to relate to each other, I think,

...

I mean, actors

...

you know, say their lines, but that's just half the job The other half half is he's figuring out how to create something

...

more than just people,

...

speaking their lines. I mean, how do you do that?

...

Yeah. This is

...

the crux doesn't the matter. How do you do digital theater?

...

I

...

I think the the the first thing that that I learned

...

is that if you're doing,

...

digital performance.

...

It is

...

it is

...

fundamentally

...

different.

...

Than live theater.

...

How is

...

for example,

...

if you're working in digital medium,

...

it means you're working over the your your audience is perceiving me through a screen,

...

which means that the visual

...

aspect of what you were making

...

is

...

a thousand times bigger than it was when you were in the theater.

...

That's not to say that being in the theater is not visual. It is.

...

But there's a whole host of things that are happening in a life performance, which are not trans, trans through a screen.

...

But what is str is the visual.

...

So this means that as an artist, when you're approaching what you're making,

...

you you have to

...

rearranged,

...

the way that you make

...

an event or you make an a live experience because you're you realize that the that where you have room to to to push and manipulate

...

and

...

make an experience for someone just isn't there.

...

You will not be able to affect an audience with your normal toolbox. You have to think in a totally new way.

...

And I think that this goes maybe back to the beginning of

...

of, you know, of this talk, which is about

...

And I think that me personally,

...

my whole brain has been

...

through this last year and a half of the pandemic and of being

...

forced into into digital

...

and then choosing to embrace it

...

because I I don't look at the world the same way.

...

I I'm changed by this experience, radically transformed about how I make my work, how I think about work,

...

how I think about

...

the possibilities of performance.

...

And so I think that that ...you know, to answer or your first question, How do you do it?

...

I think it's it's ...it's ...how do you change your mind?

...

You know, if I was working in Tv and film, I think this would have been a smaller leap Yeah. It seems like,

...

you know, you're essentially putting on a sending very so to then

...

act,

...

and you start at the beginning and you and and at the end.

...

But then

...

how

...

how many people have ...shall

...

we say the balls to to do this because

...

this is

...

inherent incredibly difficult.

...

It is. And and, like, when when I when we approached the the first season that I did with digital,

...

like, what we said, like, what can we keep that's live?

...

And so

...

one show we decided to do was like a live

...

call in television show.

...

Where it was un unrestricted,

...

and we had a live broadcast that was happening in real time.

...

The the the actor

...

was improv improvise the entire time He had no idea what was gonna happen.

...

And people were calling in,

...

sometimes it was planned calls

...

often

...

more often than not, we had no idea of these people were.

...

And so there was a real live thing happening

...

so we were trying for that live.

...

But at the same time,

...

the audience is watching this on the screen. So we were forced to do to do as much as we could visually to make it interesting

...

on the visual level and to send.

...

And to transmit the things we wanted to say

...

in a visual medium, So we worked with a Dj, and we worked with digital

...

artwork

...

so that there was there were multiple layers that you could approach this with.

...

But that was as close as we could get to

...

truly live.

...

Then other things we did when we wanted to do a a piece, which was, I would say a little bit prepared,

...

we were working with the idea of one take

...

you know, which is quite common and tactic in in in the world of film

...

where you turn on the camera and you let it run, and there's no editing.

...

So

...

sometimes sometimes there is really no idea either

...

and sometimes no idea. And so then you have ...but what you have at least captured is something

...

that is an approximation of live

...

because you didn't edit. So this is another way of, like, okay. This is we're bringing a live a live event

...

way of making artwork to this process,

...

but we're immediately encountering

...

the gigantic

...

limitations about what we're used to having.

...

What about a sort of a halfway point?

...

And I know this is possibly ...not

...

the best example, but the only one I can think of at the moment Dog,

...

this rather incredible

...

film

...

from last.

...

Which happens

...

on

...

in effect at theater other stage.

...

So it's a a movie in the form of a play,

...

of course, it's post produced and they they had the advantage of

...

of being able to

...

to to do that. But

...

what level of difficulty is it

...

for

...

an actor

...

to

...

deliver?

...

This kind of

...

emotional content with the sort of level of precision

...

when it is actually live and let's say you have six cameras,

...

But it's ...as you said, it's one take. Right?

...

You start

...

and you go.

...

I mean it sounds.

...

Really hard.

...

It is. It's a ...it's extremely hard, and I I I think that

...

basically, a lot of

...

what I've seen that was effective in you know live arts going

...

digital

...

was

...

was the director taking a step back and

...

re imagining the piece in such a way

...

that it could

...

collaborate in a digital way.

...

So ...but

...

I think the most

...

interesting stuff that I saw, which was really

...

which really opened my mind was

...

the way that people were using

...

like, the

...

platforms like Skype and Zoom.

...

So then you have live audience

...

that is physically

...

or visually present.

...

And so that changes the dynamic lot.

...

And that that the line between who is performing and and and

...

and whose ...the audience is also blurred.

...

And I've seen several productions like this, which were really quite something.

...

And they're they they're entering into the technology side of interactivity, which is what I think technology does the best.

...

And

...

I've also seen things where

...

there were performances for one

...

audience on Skype. One person,

...

an actor suddenly appears on your skype, and

...

and you you ...and ...it's you and the this actor, and it's ...and it's interactive. It's not just a monologue.

...

Just like that wonderful series of music performances

...

whose name escapes me at the moment, but I will pass it in the tell the telegram channel

...

where

...

there is

...

a physical space that's dig delineate

...

two meters by

...

four meters or something,

...

and

...

you walk in

...

and you don't know

...

who's going to play for you. You sit down and the musician comes

...

does their thing for fifteen or twenty minutes,

...

and then you both leave.

...

That sort of level of intimacy, I think,

...

can be achieved

...

digitally,

...

but can it be replicated

...

at scale?

...

I don't know.

...

I really don't know. I don't know Wish we are still finding out. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

...

Let's let's

...

see what

...

what

...

new guests. Have to say, Erica, Joy,

...

Justin, would you care or would you care to come in and and

...

so Was a terrible?

...

Well, so I'm just listening to Paul there, and

...

it

...

...one of the things I was thinking of, like,

...

ian, Of course,

...

like, acting to a camera that's very different than acting on a stage.

...

It's different different than how you express yourself. It's different in

...

you know, your

...

the way you sort of post your body language and and how big you have to be

...

but one of the things that I was, ...sort of as I was listening to that and

...

and taking all that in, is I'm curious, Paul ...when

...

you're delivering content out there in that way,

...

are you finding

...

that there's

...

any sort of ...are

...

are you heading against any of expectations from audiences

...

for it to come across in in the same sort of polished way that you would

...

a film or a television production where

...

one of the realities with those is well, especially with some films. I mean, they could be filming the same two minutes for

...

twelve hours of a day

...

to to get it to, you know,

...

exactly instead of that that polished piece that they want

...

or or have you been finding that the audience is is just really excited to

...

you know, kind of have a theater experience and

...

and in a new a different way.

...

It's difficult to answer.

...

But one thing I can say is that you really are up against it

...

because

...

the

...

the audience

...

who is watching your your

...

performance today

...

has has seen

...

more high quality, high produced film and television

...

than any audience of german beings ever in the history of mankind.

...

And so

...

you ...that's

...

the reality.

...

So no.

...

You're you're putting up something which is basically handmade made.

...

And the only way that it can be successful, I think, is it full embrace that?

...

And and an understanding that it is not

...

made for film or television. It does not have high production values.

...

It is rough. It is ugly. It is

...

maybe difficult to sometimes see

...

so

...

that's that that is the ...all I can say is that that is the challenge.

...

But I do think that that ...because

...

we ...there's so much high produced material out there. I mean right now, like, just for example, in it what is it there's, like, six hundred

...

cereals

...

in production or or or being broadcast right now

...

is is unbelievable.

...

Like a explosion.

...

And never in the history of of civilization has been so much of a a content available.

...

And so I do think that there is an audience out there that when they come across something,

...

which is

...

an approximation

...

of

...

something

...

raw and real and live

...

that there ...that ...if

...

there is a way to appreciate it, it's in that

...

And so as you've been doing that, have you been ...has there been sort of

...

little gems or little discoveries that you've kind of head along the way where ...oh,

...

wow. The audience is really responding to this or ...oh, this wasn't something we expected. And

...

and and is is maybe something we should be embracing more

...

with this form of art

...

Well, one thing one show that I can speak about, so we we which I mentioned earlier was this live live broadcast

...

show that we did. And so the the ...just to give you a quick outline of it, we had a a host, and this was based on on a kind of late night television, which you you used to see in Poland,

...

which was called as Tv.

...

And basically, these were online mystic.

...

Not Just in Poland.

...

And I they they're everywhere out there, but these these are, like, you know, a fine way to make a living. Yeah. You call in and

...

to talk to the mystic and your your cell phone gets charged

...

by a very

...

extraordinary amount of money. Of the minutes that you're listening to the master, you know, read your fortune or talk about your life in your future.

...

And I was really ...I I was really appreciative of this as a formed because it was so strange.

...

And you know, oftentimes, the person would just be sitting there in silence waiting.

...

And there was no no one was calling them.

...

And so for me, this ...it worked as on a on the many layers so as metaphor and those as other things.

...

And with our show, so we had a mystic

...

and we have people calling in

...

And because it was pandemic and because it was a ...it was locked

...

and because anything could happen,

...

The people started calling in and the

...

talking about really forbidden things.

...

This was quite extraordinary. And also, in

...

in ways that were really quite shocking political. Sex

...

politics

...

religion and addictions

...

all of the above.

...

And so, because the the format of the show was was this title of the show was secrets with Greg,

...

And so you called in, and you told a secret.

...

And so

...

what was amazing was that Sometimes these people were calling in and

...

we didn't know who they were, and they were telling quite embarrassing or or

...

or terrifying secrets.

...

But there ...then also, we had a a crew of of actors who were listening at the same time, and then they would call in and improvise in response to what a real person had just said.

...

And this, I think, was a really interesting dynamic

...

that

...

if we had been able to continue with that. I think we really could have gone somewhere with it.

...

But there was many times when this

...

we ...everybody in the studio was on the floor rolling with laughter.

...

Or

...

or other times, we were we were just you, absolute shock silence who what was happening.

...

So this was one method where I thought that that we found something that somehow existed in the live

...

that was essential.

...

Some more blurring of lines

...

where

...

where the audience aware that this was a show?

...

Generally, yes.

...

Generally, people that were were interacting with us knew that, but there were

...

there words sometimes

...

where

...

they really didn't know.

...

I don't know how they came across our show,

...

and they

...

they thought it was real.

...

They were absolutely taken in.

...

So more of the world strikes again.

...

Yeah.

...

Joy,

...

Justin,

...

Do you have anything to

...

throw into the pot?

...

With love yeah.

...

Yes. Thanks

...

really, really enjoying this conversation.

...

And

...

where you're starting to go in the conversation is kind of where my brain has been and this idea,

...

you know, blurring the lines

...

and considering

...

looking at

...

a more of an, like, an augmented reality

...

where

...

you don't necessarily have to worry about the visuals

...

you know, Because as you've been discussing, there's a lot of, you know, technicalities that are just difficult, you know, in live

...

and looking at augmented reality where you can have these almost, like, animated

...

story lines, but there's still this live component. Just like in a video game where, you know, that ...you'll have these scenes that are kind of scripted it out and then you see the intro to it. And then the characters

...

enter this world, you know, And then you can move around and you can do these and just kinda of mixes in these recorded scenes and this live interaction. And with something like that, you could actually have

...

similar to what you're just talking about, having

...

people

...

that are along for the journey, the audience member, that is one of these characters

...

that you get to interact with some of them or you could have more of a fly in the wall

...

where they don't really interact much, but they're still there, and there's still the opportunity for that.

...

But I think there are some really interesting things that could happen if we

...

introduce a little bit of augmented reality.

...

I I'm gonna take that a step further. Are you familiar with alternate reality, Justice.

...

I have not heard that I'm talking my.

...

Sorry. What you when you say real? You're smoking mushrooms hit? No. No. So this is ...so

...

so this goes back to

...

they've views different terms over the years, like trans media,

...

alternate reality,

...

Yeah. That's the mushrooms would give you a different poor at reality. But

...

there next week year this week's cookie episode.

...

But

...

there's there's a number of sort of storytellers out there and this is all very pre pre pandemic Actually,

...

of going back over the last

...

ten years

...

who have been doing really interesting things where they're creating these

...

interactive

...

sort of stories

...

that sometimes have gaming elements sort of embedded in them. And they allow people to

...

be become a part of the story

...

and

...

where

...

they're

...

they're able to, you know, they might get a phone call from from one of the actors in the game.

...

That ...that that, you know, could be

...

terrifying or curious or ...but it basically launches them into these these worlds where their

...

they're ...well the work ...they do. They become a part of the story. There's a few people in in race that's covered episode that you wanna kind of

...

sort of explore

...

that

...

have been playing around with this kind of stuff

...

Allison No Of the Uk, so has been doing some of this, Steve Peters.

...

He's Los Angeles is based.

...

Would you would you post

...

some nfl about that in that there. Yeah. Yeah. It it's stuff that's totally fascinating. I I had

...

I've always wanted to kind of pull one of these off with

...

sort of

...

any

...

sort of ...and her her band of

...

different sort of real life and

...

and characters is from around the world. Amy, is is your your your your

...

multimedia character?

...

Yes. Yes. Which when Paul is just talking about,,

...

you know, people sort of

...

coming out with these secrets that they would tell on your show. I was I was thinking about her because

...

I've experienced the same thing as a writer through her where people would tell me things that I was like, my goodness.

...

You know, that I never sort of expected. That that's how people would connect with a character. But where they just

...

one and somebody to talk to they want somebody to listen.

...

But

...

Yeah. I mean,

...

so it's telling a story, but it's telling a story in a way that

...

allows real people to become a part of the story and interactive engage in it. And so that's that's a whole world of of alternate,

...

alternate reality, and

...

and sometimes called trans media, and I'm sure

...

because and the names over the year. If if we're talking about blurring of of lines,

...

Adrian,

...

I'd

...

I'd be really

...

keen to

...

hear if you've

...

witnessed

...

any new approaches to the blurring of lines between

...

music and performance

...

and the audience

...

And this can be anything. It and it doesn't have to be digital and recent.

...

Because, of course, all those components

...

come into the play, so to speak,

...

especially in

...

a format that that

...

Paul was talking about the the black box theater where

...

the the stage is very,

...

very sparse, but then there is all of the other stuff

...

that goes on, including

...

sounds

...

sounds

...

scriptures or or

...

just music.

...

What sort of really cool examples

...

have you seen and or heard?

...

I mean, I guess,

...

most of the things that I was interested in

...

before the pandemic is the idea of sand in space. I mean, so much sand

...

that we listened to is media through the age of stereo technology, which is

...

pretty old technology you know.

...

I have had headphones or speakers or even on the computer obviously we've got in speakers

...

and

...

I was interested in sand in space. So over the last ten years, I've seen huge amounts of

...

amazing work where, you know, sound had

...

been turned into

...

immersive

...

worlds where you're going to room

...

and using algorithms, you can measure the

...

room

...

and make sure that the sound

...

that you are gonna be

...

broadcasting in that room

...

will

...

be exactly fitted to the dimensions of that room,

...

and you create sound that exists exactly like you would in the real world, which is the sound moves around as move

...

below is it admission below his to above head. It can move from one corner of room to the diagonal opposite of the room. And this stuff is happening all the time, and you can move through that space

...

and you can interact with that sound world.

...

As it changes. And

...

now, for example, I work with

...

a

...

sand artist

...

who

...

you know, specializes really recorded nature,

...

which has been, you know, I think, massively popular lot taking recordings of may

...

and giving them people in the homes,

...

you know, beautifully, realize recordings of places maybe they've never been to, but, you know,

...

rendered in beautiful detail. So hey, one of his pieces is recorded code Through the course called Chris Watson

...

start out under the ground and the the the the mid desert. So the fifth thing you've heard was

...

the

...

sounded at the sand jeans moving, you know, so very low frequencies.

...

And slowly, the piece moved up through the levels of the sand and slippers was on the surface, and then you hear

...

small insects moving on the surface of the sand.

...

Then it moved up into the air different. Levels a the air until finally,

...

you're way up in the only you could hear, you know, birds of prey and and, you know,

...

Yeah.

...

And, you know, birds in sky.

...

So

...

those

...

that feeling in a space for taking a space that you've never been to and recognize it in

...

a physical space

...

was something that was, you know, very powerful for me at the last ten years or so and I've experienced a lot of that.

...

How that can be realized digitally.

...

I'm

...

not sure of I'm sure people are working on that but is

...

there's something about the physicality

...

space

...

of of a sound that's come from one space being put in another space.

...

That I don't know quite how easy that is to replicate.

...

With speakers in in home or with phones because you need

...

you need

...

kind of four dimensions that work really.

...

Yeah. And they that

...

design ends up to be ends up somewhat somewhat different and the mastering needs to be different. So, I guess,

...

you're designed for the for the ultimate

...

The end user right you're designed for the experience of the end user.

...

Yeah.

...

Joy, you've been very patiently.

...

I character k throw something into the pot.

...

Yes. Thank you, everyone.

...

You mentioned a word experience, and I think that that's what

...

for me, it it definitely is with its experience rather than performance

...

as we have to do and move in these ways.

...

My experience has been as a production stage manager and doing lots of production things for twenty years and, you know, we can catch the audience

...

when we call house to half, and

...

we can do an announcement and set the tone and people turn their phones to silent and the house flights go out, and then you've got them

...

you know, you've got them for the performance and the integrity of what the makers is and the performers and

...

the technicians are putting together.

...

You know, exemplified. And and

...

I think that's,

...

you know, that the audience doesn't have to do anything at deficit there and absorb and fail.

...

And be a part of of what the makers are putting there in the moment.

...

And I think that's probably what is so difficult with digital

...

that,,

...

you know, how do we get the two intention of the show? How do we maintain the audience when

...

they're at time and there's a hundred and one different distractions

...

So,

...

yeah, It's really really kind of being fascinating, you know, with we've covid and then the hole ...well, it I can speak to Australia I can stakes for sydney,

...

the whole of the entertainment

...

and performance industry shutting down

...

and it was dark, you know, from

...

the moment it was called right up until

...

probably about

...

a month ago, I'd say

...

there really wasn't a whole lot that could happen, and, you know, we've really jumped on

...

the processes

...

of just, you know, going with the tide and doing what needs to be done to

...

to be as Covid safe and and, you know, and have it under the control. So, you know, Hamilton opens in Sydney just the other week and

...

all the other major companies are starting to stage their performances,

...

which is, you know, permissible and it can happen, you know, the audience wearing masks and things. So there's definitely

...

the return in in Sydney that I can I can speak on but,,

...

you know, for the this whole year, I

...

I've been doing a lot of digital things

...

that it has for instance. Give us a for instance.

...

And for instance of of what I've been doing well, it's different

...

my difference is that,

...

you know, I I chose to leave the stage

...

before Covid. So

...

really for me, it's been going to a digital platform on how we create and we make things and it's actually getting people to move in digital ways

...

you know, be a little bit less analog come off from the stage and and do it digitally with,

...

you know,

...

live broadcast and things like that. So let's ...if we speak of say the opera house, they they have the full production sweet there where you're able to

...

broadcast

...

immediately the performance sets on stage,

...

whether it be a live band or classical musicians, the structures there, and then,,

...

you know, the people are available where that can be broadcast to the world.

...

And

...

that's that's, I guess, the a's of a place like that. But for smaller makers or smaller theaters, I guess, the question is you know, how

...

how do you

...

engage people in the work that you're doing? But what sort of

...

infrastructure is available for to actually put bring the bring the work, you know, into

...

the

...

realm of of the person sitting at home and how do you

...

maintaining gay and engage them. And and,

...

you know, so when you're working in performance or when you have shows, I guess it's that bum on seats mentality, like how do you actually

...

make it profitable as well? So I think there's have this whole

...

market of, you know, for each company to you know, digitally invest in in what they're putting out there, but then also maybe

...

reshaping the way that the audience, is whether, you know, the anger generations

...

that might

...

subscribe to, say, sydney the company, whether

...

there'll be younger audiences coming in because they're very open to new types of

...

experience new types of the way works to put out there

...

it's on.

...

You're saying

...

sort of endless dc

...

going on?

...

And, you know, the the target groups?

...

I I think that that's what needs to be done. It. It's actually I've been really

...

looking at that myself,

...

you know, as a fly on the wall looking at people at different companies, social media accounts, and and what they're putting out there,

...

you know, if they're doing more of that behind the scenes, you know, as a as a production person. My my job has always been to be

...

never be seen. You know, it's gonna be seamless and flawless and

...

it's it's about the show, but I think now there's that whole

...

wave of having to ...get

...

people into to sort of see what the vaccinations are of how you actually shape the show and how it's put together. Like, I mean, that's been my business of of getting someone's intention or what the idea of say the directories is and the creative team and and making it happen, you know, shaping these things that that you can put it out to the audience. So it's very different individual, and I think it's really hard to ...it

...

becomes more of an experience. You know, you can have a camera crew on stage

...

that's shooting

...

a life performance of say, a big band or something like that, or you can have the solo former on stage and that can be shot really beautifully

...

and,

...

you know, recorded live or broadcast live.

...

But

...

how do you do the more complex shows? You know, how do you get that sensation when the house lights go down? And then and then the the starts and and the little buzz that that we get that little.

...

Yeah. Those those those butterflies that we get as audience

...

Yeah. I'm still one to think about how how do we crack that? I I don't

...

know if it's possible. There's nothing like being in an audience

...

for me, leave inside of stage, like witnessing it with your through your own eyeballs,

...

the magic of performance so I'm positive. You know, I think we're coming back in

...

Australia, and hopefully,

...

in other, the parts of the world, you guys will be,

...

you know, having a return to stage as well as then somehow embracing the digital on top of that.

...

Thank you. Yeah. It's that what word that joy used

...

intention is a

...

key, I guess, and

...

I'm finding the biggest challenge

...

for me in terms of

...

selecting what

...

what I

...

experience what I watch what I listen to

...

is

...

time.

...

I mean, we have as was saying, we have such a breath

...

perfusion.

...

This plethora of choice out there

...

And a lot of it is actually really quite good.

...

So

...

the intention of the creator

...

is something that really interests me.

...

And

...

how they

...

communicate that intention

...

in ways other than simply

...

performance.

...

How do they

...

let us know what they want us to

...

to experience.

...

Chap,

...

Id. I think I think I think we should we should all take a a very close

...

make a very close study of q on.

...

I just think this is this has been the ultimate performance art masterpiece of all time. Terrifying one

...

where it touched all the right buttons

...

about people creating their own alternate

...

reality

...

that's

...

a generated fiction that people believe they've discovered themselves.

...

I think it's ...of

...

course, this is the the ultimate dark side of all of this. But I think that there's a lot there

...

if you wanna start talking about,

...

the great successes of performance. I think it would be hard hard to

...

to beat that one.

...

Sounds like a good place to

...

pause it, I think,

...

pause a conversation

...

Because, of course, we can't go on all night, but that's really not the

...

aim the exercise the name of the exercise to

...

take the experience or a little chat and maybe

...

carry it with us and

...

ingest and digest it

...

over the next few days

...

until we meet again.

...

And

...

and we will meet again next Monday

...

because

...

because

...

where we're altering

...

course

...

just very, very slightly.

...

Next week, we are starting a new series now here on the grady farm

...

and it is devoted to the future of the music business,

...

the music business.

...

So we'll be

...

inviting accomplished musicians and other fuck

...

experience in this field and Adrian and I

...

will be attempting to figure out where the business of music might be headed

...

while

...

Paul

...

takes a bit of a breather and maybe concentrates on

...

on his next production.

...

We'll be looking at how individual musicians and competitors

...

as well as the industry as a how

...

might

...

shift the way it does business.

...

It's going to be an

...

interesting discussion.

...

So please do tune in the same time right here on Fireside and in the meantime time,

...

do

...

hop into the telegram channel.

...

We'll be posting links to the various things that we've been talking about.

...

And please also, if you have

...

questions or ongoing

...

ideas for us

...

to talk about, chuck them in there.

...

T dot me.

...

This is the telegram

...

short form Url

...

forward slash, that creative form

...

all one word.

...

Thank you. Thank you. Adrian. Thank you, Paul.

...

And

...

thank you to everyone, and a good night and chat next week.

Fortune Cookie