The Future of Entertainment is Interactive
The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.
Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.
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The future of entertainment is interactive.
Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.
Transcript
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No same.....
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You know what
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Oh
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Good evening.
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We are starting a your series
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here on another the creative farm.
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On an occasional series, I should say,
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devoted to the future of the music business.
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Be inviting accomplished musicians and other fog
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experienced in this field
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in an attempt to figure out where the business of music
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might be headed for individual musicians and composers
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as well as for the industry as a whole.
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It's certainly
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interesting times, and it's going to be
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an interesting discussion. I'm sure.
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My name is Ralph Helm, and with me today,
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two gentlemen who
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know a think or two about the music business
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having worked in parallel,
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as it were
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as musicians
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and as hundreds of roles other than purely creative.
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Listeners to the creative farm will be familiar with Adrian Co.
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Coming in from London.
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Is a composer.
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Of music film and television,
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whose credits include in star now in its third season, I think, good
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Yeah. Thank
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And many other productions in the Uk and the on the continent and the owner of two labels
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publishing
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rather delicious. I have to say experimental music
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and
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joining us around the far end of the
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vegetable patch is lionel lodge.
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Who is a singer songwriter
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according artist with
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twelve albums
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of his own to his name plus, plus many, many other works besides
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who has also been, among other things,
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a booking agent and editor of a music
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Magazine
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is a leading expert in music licensing and is now
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setting up a licensing
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start
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Welcome, Gentlemen.
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Hello.
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Hello.
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Let's
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let's dive
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Let's dive
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straight straight in. Shall we say?
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The disaster
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that's Brexit.
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Is a curse upon the music business yet. I Know your licensing startup is a Uk registered company.
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Can you talk about that, please? And can you also give us maybe a little bit of of an insight into what you're doing and how you're doing it?
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Okay. Great. Great. Well, it's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
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The the choice for the Uk one one was ...I don't sound, but I am British.
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And
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the for the safe licensing singer, there's really two hubs clothing
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long is gonna be changing that, but it's the London and La.
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And so the choice was the Uk or the states. Set up the company,
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and with brexit, being ...I'm actually based in Austria, and that would be a very bad place because we're just confusing things on as far as our trading and everything goes in the Uk.
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And so we decided to set up in and we're actually crystal.
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So the brexit did decide that if it was gonna be this wall for business, then let's be on the other side of it.
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Basically,
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very well. So this is purely
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playing into established business practices and relationships and not having people guess
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what this new startup is all about.
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Yeah. Yeah. So so but the the the companies called Sync large
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it's basically a simplest
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management
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project management system.
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So it's a focused on music supervisor individual production companies well that side of the industry,
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and we built all the tools that they need to to really do the
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from the start the concept of the project to finish on the same
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inside,
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and it's totally free for them to use, and then we also
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copyright holes and create
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different and publishers.
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And it's it's so an ecosystem for the for the ...you know the system is quite ...you
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know, the music industry is funny. It's a funny thing because when we look it on other industries and the data and sharing your data and the organize organizing the data and standardizing of data.
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They seem to figured it out quite a while ago, and music just be still just ...it's
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to get standardized. They're talking about q now, but
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you know, it's it's ...between the countries in between the companies and between the organizations, it's very hard to standard the the movement of data.
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And so when you say date, how you mean the metadata
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information about the the actor pieces of music That that's one side of it. That's one side of it. And the the other slide is actually also communication.
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So the there mysterious of, like a Facebook page. There's a few facebook pages and music super say probably your Facebook plate is
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I'm a member of a couple of them, and the the biggest ...the
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most number of posts are asking other music you provides you know how to get in touch with somebody that is owns copyright on this recording.
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Anybody know how to get in touch with them? Then doesn't sound terribly efficient or ...shall we say?
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Easy to expedite.
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Well, no. It's it's and it's silly. It's just silly. Right? I you know, you have these creative people music supervisor who creative people and they bought down with all other stuff.
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And so our system basically automate a lot of it and connects people and verify copyright
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automatically. And,
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it it's it's bringing out the industry up to modern age in a way.
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The industry as a whole is being dragged
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at a rapid trip.
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Into the the the modern age, some sites of it it's very exciting.
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Not. Yeah. It's
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is it is hugely exciting. And, of course,
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a platform business is a data business. And unless you have data, you cannot actually offer
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makeup platform,
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so not that longer ago. It would be very difficult. I I suspect
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for you to create a a a solution.
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So do such as a ...such as yours.
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It's still difficult.
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You know, doing with some of the organizations are so convinced and and standing,
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and they have very many levels of management.
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And so to get a a a new idea, put through
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as been a singer as there's being a a quite task and we're still working on it in some areas
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but we're getting here.
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We'll get back to the technology
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I dare say very quickly in our discussion,
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but let's tell let's circle circle circle out and up
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Let's take a
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a abroad of view of my birds i idea, if you will.
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Adrian,
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Today,
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the
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music artist
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is also the music promoter is also the music producer is also the social media manager
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is also,
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you know, at least a dozen other things
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Well the most flexible artist
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thrive will those who actually pick up all those skills most easily?
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I guess I mean, it's already it's already happening. I mean, I think, you know, obviously I came from a time.
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Really before social media and the Internet. So,
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you know, my early foray into releasing music can also
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doing music for film, you know, it it kinda created a lot of that age and
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So, you know, I kind of look with ...we've a kind of a bit a bit of distance on the way that musicians now have to.
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I mean, I think
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I mean, you know, for me, personally, I run a label. So, like, you know, I have to do a number of things, some of which I don't think I'm the best to do, but at necessity, I have to do.
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And some of these things do relate very quickly to,
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you know, what I was send about data and and and like, you know, just this kind of
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it it becomes the music industry now, actually,
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a very
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you're, you know, very kind of ...data
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alienated
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filling in queue sheets, checking q sheets, understanding,
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you know, new ...or, not new copyright. Cop. I've always existed that I was collecting on your behalf, for example, there's one called neighboring rights,
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which is, you know, suddenly of his agency, she's spring up all around the world who Are realizing that there isn't cross ...there
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isn't,
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you know, collection between Britain and the the collection agencies that do this all around the world. So that they set up and do this. And you so, you know, you end up becoming almost
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very heavily involved with the entrepreneurship of
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of of of the business side as much as kind of like getting on social media and promoting,
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which, you know,
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again, coming from an age where
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you know, the early nineties
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it was still possible for musicians
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to not actually,
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you know, get involved really with advertising.
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I mean,
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I remember,
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you know, the bill Hicks got skirts the same
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sketch
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I'm working an advertising, which no seems incredibly,
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you know, the fun Everyone become their own brand now,
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particularly in in the art everyone's five for, you know, kind of likes in attention.
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But there was a time when people could literally say, no. My music is not gonna be used for this. And
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obviously,
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just thinking about market, you know, where music could say no through. The music was worth more.
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Now that everyone has to say yes to the same kind of deals.
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The music is with less. And
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I think streaming and all the kind digital platforms a part of it, but
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I think just muted music has been
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you know? I mean, this is perhaps me coming out it and, you know, lionel ...it's got more experience on this than I. But, you know, just it feels we do have to value quite heavily in them i how hard
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you know, musicians work to, you know, develop these skills of which I see the generations which you incredible the amount of things that they can do.
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You know, ultimately people are fighting
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harder for less.
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And I I don't know how you can fix that without changing the underlying structures.
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It seems really
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really strange dichotomy where
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on the one hand, yes, music like many creative
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and there is being
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comm really.
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On the other hand, there are
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many more opportunities
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to to make a living by plugging in somewhere
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where, you know, that somewhere did not exist five or ten years ago.
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How
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how would you explain?
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Or perhaps how would you
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work with that dichotomy? Line do you work with that dichotomy me? Is it possible to master that process?
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...it's ...i there are artists that are doing this. Right? There are independent artists that are doing this in the google and you know, and then somebody that's that's really worked through the different social networks works and
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but it it's a it's a funny thing because it changes.
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You know, it's a creative thing in its own way. Right? How do you do this
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it's a very creative thing in own way, but it does
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take away from the focus on music
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as an individual.
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If you are
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like, like, agent saying and in the past, I was in the in you tune every nineties with the band,
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And before I I was in canada with a band in their late eighties,
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and,
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you know, we we were signed, and we didn't have anything to you know, we we talked about certain things, but we had a press agent we had that we had a booking agent
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we created the music you showed up and your played. Right? Yeah we agreed to certain alamo
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with ...we didn't have to think about any of that. We just spoke a music Okay. And it we it does change the and I think it also changes the
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the the creative focus from from the
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the inspirational side of it, You know, if if this is your focus to be
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get so many likes and get so many followers and do these certain things on to talk and such and and keep up with all
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if it I think it changes you reason why you're doing it in a way.
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It's interesting to see happen.
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But I also think that with anything like
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other goes and in frequencies made it's own way, so the further that goes in runway way, and will come back way.
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Not that the maybe will be even more investing the the
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the
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other side of the creative of music. You know, it's it's
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it is interesting, but it does take away. I think ...well,
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it certainly changes the dynamic and it and and it changes the dynamic
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you know, best positive. And shall we say not as positive ways,
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it would be interesting to consider what you know
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an artist like black, like Pete might
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might do with, you know, social media and how what he'd think of
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gaining
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likes as a currency
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or people of, you know, his
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generation
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But then
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an interesting thing to consider, of course, is this old age old question of simply how
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an artist ought to be able to make a living.
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And the question,
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which was, of course, sm away,
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since tommy Memorial has just been dashed with excel.
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If anything,
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the pandemic has exposed the
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ina and the fragile facility of the established quote and unquote
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ways of making a living.
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And
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later there too. You anyone
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would care to pay attention the truth, which
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artists have
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known and have had to live with or a long time, the uncomfortable relationship
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of career and luxury of money
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and art.
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But
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unless you are indeed focused as you were saying before,
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guys on
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simply doing the thing and ignoring everything else.
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For better worse.
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It always is a balance. Isn't it? I mean, it is a sort of a tricky dance, but it's a tricky that's that most people
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have to do.
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What are they one are some of the new dance steps that that people
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inventing. What are the new ways
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that you're saying
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that actually have worked for people, not necessarily in terms of you know, buying their bentley and number of again, but just simply being able to make a living
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out of their art in ways
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that were not possible ten, fifteen years ago.
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Well,
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I mean, for me, you know I think I'd said this in previous
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of these talks.
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Know, Bank Cameras last year was a It was a really interesting in, you know, salvador across the
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the decks of like, what could be possible. I mean, you know, bank camp was always quite to me because it was a fan oriented
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so, and you could download high quality files and you could sell merchandise and it's a bit clunky.
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And
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but, you know, ultimately, last year, whenever everything shut, you know, people were buy director artists,
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and
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I think know a lot of people really enjoy the media of it immediately have been able to buy and, you know, obviously people can go to shops some people getting stuff delivered,
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and until Brexit happened, well, at least in the Uk,
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which meant that suddenly people stopped buying from Europe at the beginning of this year.
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Because of the import duties and the uncertainties of what taxes are gonna be put on
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records as was a postage.
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But, you know, think Bank camp
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even though centralized network, it kind of stays out the way of artists.
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Obviously, takes percentage. Even though last Friday, for example, you know, I think because people know they do these bank Fridays where they don't take any
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any
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percentages of of the direct sales that artists
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may on that dough.
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I you know, I I think I just some should do a campaign to make Paypal.
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Do light likewise.
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They go take their emissions.
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But so, you know, I think, for me,
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and these are still very early days of this, but I mean, I think it's applying some of the things that I've seen encrypt currencies
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and the token
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economy where,
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you know, the the the models changing and
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is about the network,
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and it's about met,
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and the power is in the network that you have where it's a a meme a equipped currency
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or an artist with a with a piece of music called with a set piece of music.
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And if you get to the point where, you know, your network goes exponential,
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then you can be doing the most crazy music on earth.
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You know I think that the old music model work like well you have to do music.
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That has to fit into a template, was generally
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involves
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relating back to some degree to music already existed because it's easy to sell, you know, I mean, Remember the eighties, his world music appeared, and Peter Gabriel will came up with that term, and suddenly he'd going to a Cd shop when the were those things. And there was a place where you could actually find this music.
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I think no. You know, it's much harder to,
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you know, sort of gen, you know, make Genres as about music, but there's still
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feels like a massive
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onus on the past in terms of the music that gets made, even though on the fringe of music, which I guess is what I'm sort involved in with my labels.
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Is this huge amounts experimentation and forward thinking and I mean, there is pop music as well, Don't get be wrong. But I mean,
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But so I think if the if these network, you if you can
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I think the thinking I've realized is if you have a network doing something very strange.
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There's it's a big world out there. So if
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if if is enough people see the value in that,
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it becomes something that you know, can generate
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a following. I mean, I know a pascal music label that really has, I think, a thousand plus really regular
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people that support the label, and that is a a solid business model. You know, they're buy most of the stuff that it's made. It's a Cd
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manufacturing
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model. So Cds are quite cheap to manufacture.
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And
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that works. Now if you listen to that music, agreed that's to a major label,
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they wouldn't touch it with a barge.
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But, you know, this serves a real good function. It's is is releasing really new music.
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And it is putting money in people's pockets.
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We'll have to we'll have to post that
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name the link to this this company, Adrian in a in a
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telegram channel. We have a telegram channel people
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where we post, indeed or will be as soon as we have some diverse
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stuff about all the various things
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that we talk about on the farm,
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lionel
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successes and failures for you in
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searching for new models both and on the music side and under the business side. Share.
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Okay. So well
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to me he has always been a funny thing. Like, I'm I'm a person.
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I've never really ...I've never
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an early age. I saw famous something that didn't we want.
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I wanna make music more be famous. It's it's an inexpensive
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expensive piece of jewelry to wear.
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Yeah. Yeah. There's there's an old saying. I forget who who
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came up with it, but fame is the mass
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that you wear and it eats at your face.
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Right? You know, real quite Jessica image on that. But it ...yeah.
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So ...so for me, i it was just success was always reaching that point with the music that I felt was actually where I wanted it to be.
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Right? And you you never actually get there. Right? It's always you can maybe touch with the tips to your fingers. But you know, so we're work in progress. Right? Yeah. You're and it's always changing..
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But on the business side, it is ...it's always been
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I found myself in situations where it seemed to be the most large next step forward was to do some and then that's sort of happened a few times where that clue into business.
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And, like, with a booking agency, it was just a matter of i, but was ...I was just cooking myself. And other band said, how do you do that? And I asked me to do it for them the next thing and know a couple years later Have ten people working for me and we're looking all over the Uk.
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Right. And and so that's that's ...and then I realized that's not really what I wanted to do, and I would just wanna to make music. So I went back to music.
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And and
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know with the business I'm doing now, it just seemed like ...I looked forward it for about three months.
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And I was working ...I I just started doing sync licensing, which, which is an
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an element that's come up in the last ten fifteen years what you question earlier,
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that is is quite different now, and it's great to, you know, the the amount of visual
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product is being produced
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is is going up as much as the amount of songs that are being produced.. So
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it's with all the different streaming networks for for a video.
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So it's it's an interesting thing for artists say, there is the opportunity there. And if you can get a good sync, it can give you some of money there and I know bastard that have covered your own through the Covid
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covered recordings of albums just in sync licensing.
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Just kept the band going for a another years, so.
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For those for those listeners who may not be familiar with the
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very technical term, sync
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license. Give us a a six sixty second pre. So, yeah. It it's there ...we go placement of music and visual content, so in films and television shows and
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and and video games and advertising.
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And and to do that, there is contracts and there's a fee that goes along with a placement.
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So it's sync licensing. So they actually license it from the owners and publishers and the record companies.
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And if you're the already ...a lot of times, do have a say, it depends on your deal.
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But ...one of the things like age the saying earlier about
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over
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usage is not only on this student's side, it's also
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like in the Uk there blanket licenses. So
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B
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and
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Can go into what the the the the
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one of the organizations called Apl.
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They can go into their catalog, which is basically everything that's produced in the Uk mostly,
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and they can use it whatever they want.
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For what I really want. So they pay monthly. So
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you saying. They on. Right? And they can just go into the and and choose anything and and and use it.
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And supposedly that money from your yearly payment goes to the Artist as a fee,
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but I i've known some bands that were complaining there to one of the majors and they were complaining that their music was used in some team
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Tv show.
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And it was really counter to the what the band thought their image should be,
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and they couldn't stop it. Without pulling their music out of this organization, which makes it so then you really catch yourself off from well, not great street. If you're a black metal band
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Yeah. Yeah. That's sort of thing. So so we couldn't actually forward.
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And know guys in their play their their situation on other fronts for loyalty. So ...this
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is ...the
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my advice and that is, you know, only own stuff. The world is opening up, and
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like, like a age who is also saying about
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with if you are doing things on the outside
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of what is esteem is the most commercial center of music, which is is always one and it shifts as time goes by.
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But if you're doing the all said now, you can actually find
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markets for you all over the world.
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Right? There might be some people in Beijing that just love your stuff. Right? And maybe it's a couple hundred people, but that's a pretty good thing. If you do that in few different and spots around the world, You can actually start making a quote
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a decent living.
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Well, this is a this is an idea that we were talking about a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly,
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lionel
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that, you know,
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it has been said
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that, you know, an artist really needs
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a thousand two fans, and that's an interesting ...note that that that as we should have just mentioned the number
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thousand, but, you know, whatever it is whether it's one k or five k, or however, many thousand,
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to fancy the the the the the group of core individuals
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who are really interested in what you're doing
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doesn't have to be here because doesn't it? No.
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No. No. That's really an interesting
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element that's changing the music industry that
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and it's it's it's it makes it so ...you know, they ...there are if you creative with actually looking for ...i'm making this type of music there are
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organizations there are of groups, your people that are
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advertising that they like that of of music and and networking with them.
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You know it's
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you like, back back in the when I was younger,
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You have your hometown, and you gotta get four, five hundred people in your home child it's gonna come down let we show you doing.
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Yeah.
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Right. And you got ...you gotta get back going, and then you can maybe go to the next city. Maybe you can get some industry interest right in the next year, you gotta build it up even bigger. And there's always really condensed localized when we think about a thousand and five thousand you globally that's such a stalk, and it's operation
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real..
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I read on that
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on that direction that you mentioned, just a moment ago, the subject of shifting of genres
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and blurring of lines, which is something that we talk about a lot on this show.
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The blurring of lines and and confusion of
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of
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silos and categories.
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This while being
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enticing and delightful on one level, it also brings with it a serious challenge.
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On both the the push
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and the tools. I mean, how do you sell
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new music?
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If it doesn't easily fit into a genre. And anyway, if there are no genre restaurants to speak because there are no Cd shops, to speak of and people don't walk down the third i to get to that black metal,
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you know, bin.
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And how do you find new music
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if you're a a music freak like me,
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who wants to main it starting at six or block in the morning with my first espresso,
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and I don't stop and until I felt fall asleep.
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I mean, you know, I have
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many albums, but I want more. How do I find them?
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Yeah. I mean, I I was funny if I was talking to
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a friend who works Michigan studio the other day, and I was ...I
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was just, you know, doing my usual thing, Saying, I wish by five was a bit. That's I don't use it. So ...and
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she was explained she was she's music soon supervisor and and that how amazing it was to her that she could
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find music quickly and
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a supermarket music a supervisor for those who don't know is that person who actually
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creates their
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the the the sound or of a movie. Right?
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Yeah. I mean, you know, you get given briefs and but you have to find music and it can be very specialized It might be
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you know, film set in Taiwan in nineteen sixty three, And there's a there's a a kind of level of almost sort of historical accuracy, but I think in the old days, you know, you just to define that kind of music would be very difficult. But
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so, you know, on one level, this someone like that, he's so spotify the answer to your your question,
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I then talk to friends who were like hardcore musicians, and they say, I only listen to music it made by my friends, an rgb and b. Right? You know, so that ...some a friend of mine. Who says that that is the current music. This habit
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with craft.
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That's that's they have a lot of friends who were professionally music. So the constant
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stream of of new projects that she gets to through them,
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you know, is is a way of oriented and and and kind of finding a new ideas, I guess.
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I mean, you know, I think there's no one answer to, like with a lot of where we're at at the moment, you know, you can simplify it, which is what spotify does and, you know, for commercial reasons,
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it does
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fit, you know, effectiveness and and speed, which is what A lot of technology enables
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is and, you know, getting rid of the friction of of the experience, but if I works, but I quite like friction. I like it quite like things being difficult. Sometimes they're quite like,
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discovery music by accident, you know? I mean, the first days of the Internet, I would just almost you know, so
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find things that would totally change our heard music, and I still don't know how I did it, but it was just the early days of surfing on the Internet.
...
Mean, now I I have the opposite problem in some way you're often, you know, I've obviously Make music, but I also have too much music I haven't really sat and properly listened to. You know, it's like, the kind of pile of books by your bed that you haven't got around to read and everything of.
...
I I have a bit of that problem with music. I've listened to it. But sometimes I catch myself and say well have I really listen to that? You know, it takes me back to, like, when I had a couple of albums and as a kid, and I really would really really listen to something.
...
So,
...
you know, at the moment, I'm trying to kind of listen
...
harder to the things that I'm interested in. And I'm not so
...
interested in in in listening to thousands of new pieces every the day even though every day I find new pieces.
...
So
...
I have the opposite feeling I need to kind of somehow
...
put filters in to stop too much music
...
come in my way.
...
No testing. Like ...I know. Yeah can't be such. If it's just strange,
...
maybe I'm I'm strange this no I'm with you on that adrian.. I I I I find it ...sometimes I feel like I'm missing a lot. I'm I've there's so much thing
...
least every day and missing a lot other times I just have slow myself down. And just think ...no, Actually, I'm just wanna listen to something like this.
...
And I'm not interested in in in
...
keep keeping up with it. Or there's certain moves that you want as a sort of the music to fit into.
...
Well..
...
It is it is
...
sometimes it basically a great rabbit holes
...
or find myself going down,
...
So and and just listening to things and and and the checking or that artists and this me something else that's apparently like it and enough old sudden fun I really love. And i gave him was saying not knowing how I got there.
...
Well, this is, you know, this
...
reflects directly in people's ability
...
or not.
...
To sell their work. I mean, last week,
...
oh this week, or I anyway,
...
I'll, you know, start with Ralph
...
To
...
That can dance
...
that bit of wolves in the front room.
...
Some cro caught possibly with
...
If you don't know him looking up, kim and an amazing accordion player,
...
and then swing swing around to some John John John Prime in in in the evening, and
...
which is great.
...
Because I know what to look for, but
...
how do I
...
ask Google.
...
Yeah go go give me something like, you know, Ralph Is solar guitar,
...
but something I haven't heard yet.
...
There's got to be a business model in that.
...
I think there must be. I think very there is, you know, because mean, people love
...
discovery and people love.
...
But the reason there is there's a business It's speak ...because people love music
...
An obvious thing to say, but maybe it needs same.
...
Yeah.
...
They are in the sequel world there there's a lot of companies that are making what's called
...
sound like searches.
...
So so they been did a catalog and they finger printed for the styles, but it is all different to script of metadata temporal and mood
...
variance smooth and and implementation and such.
...
And then you can find a song and you say, actually, that bridge of that song I really, like, finding more like that.
...
And if we find everything that like that, that's that's in the catalog,
...
and then you get
...
half a dozen songs with a bridge that is similar or or beginning pretty similar.
...
It doesn't have to be the bridge right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like i I got it. Yeah. Well, yeah And, of course, that's, you know, that is that is
...
just technology that's made it possible. I wonder what sort of levels of
...
interesting
...
Ai, whether it be simple
...
or more sophisticated
...
processing,
...
they these guys use, and it would be really interesting to have a chapter them at some stage.
...
It's the top of the hour
...
that you are listening to the creative farm,
...
and I'm here with Line lodge.
...
And Adrian Ko, we talking about
...
the future of the music
...
business
...
given
...
that
...
without the business,
...
it's hard to get music other than, you know, you know, friends playing it
...
in your living room.
...
Let's drag some humans under the stage if they wish to do so. And please don't feel
...
you under any obligation to pick up the microphone if Throw it your way.
...
And
...
by but by all means, if, you know, if you'd like to check something into the pot, please you do.
...
Let's
...
drag Erica
...
in here.
...
And
...
boys
...
or is it boys?
...
That can never tell with that name. It's a mystery to me.
...
I think his voice.
...
I would say voice.
...
I'll i'll bet I'll bet two bucks on boys.
...
And and Patrick,
...
please join us if you wish,
...
or not. I'll just sit back
...
chill and enjoy the conversation.
...
Voice. Welcome.
...
What have you got to throw up the of the guys?
...
Oh, yeah. It's it's voice like a rolls royce, but cheaper.
...
It's an ex ...it's it's it's it's an excellent version that anyone can afford.
...
Exactly.
...
Where are you coming from? I'm in Michigan
...
in the stage.
...
What what music businesses is to be had in Michigan?
...
Not a lot.
...
Was not a big scene here. I I actually go to Chicago
...
to to see
...
the bigger concerts.
...
All altogether a different scene at that.
...
Yeah. It's ...well,
...
of course, the the last two years of ability any concerts today sort I just started five. I love live music, and
...
yes just not hammer. So
...
it's ...it's coming today is coming when we will be able to enjoy it's can live music again,
...
are you in in the music world yourself voice No. I actually, did more like Stand Comedy when I was younger, but
...
I'm just a huge huge fan of music and art and just, you know, that expression I just love it.
...
Well, this is why this is why people like lionel and
...
and Adrian do it,
...
I think
...
if you ask any
...
artist,
...
scratch
...
all slightly,
...
this, you know, hard
...
of a
...
a tough tough professional to get negotiating
...
percentage points on the on the royalty the contract, they will actually tell you that, you know, unless people
...
love their music then
...
that's kind of little point.
...
Yeah. Yeah. This is all the why. Right? And since it that supposed it for me.
...
And and I always ask myself at the beginning before I do in the room
...
why am I doing this?
...
Right make. Okay. It's a lot fun I really enjoy it but the big parties I've got these songs and actually wanna share them.
...
Well, ultimately, you're doing it for yourself, of course, because you have to because you have no choice in the matter. Right? Yeah.
...
But then then then leads the wanna go out and play. Yeah exactly. Yeah.
...
This wanna go and play. So you gotta just let them out and play. Right. So you let the
...
the push to that is recording.
...
But we are talking about the business of music and
...
quote from from
...
the one only Tom Weights comes to me,
...
and I will ...and
...
you inevitably screw it up, but it goes something like
...
my songs
...
like my children.
...
I send them out
...
in the morning and tell them, go out there into the world and bring daddy home some money.
...
No.
...
I'll be sitting here with my fairy.
...
But Top is a really good example because he was one of the options you kind of you know, came prominence in the eighties and
...
did amounts of money in the music industry. And
...
you know, in the nineties as well.
...
I remember he he actually ...was
...
very lit with people who licensed because, you know, people deserve of tom weights, you know, it was quite tangible,
...
you know,
...
how many partners have been drinking you know? Yeah. I'd dare say, pretty much all of them possible by the end of the eighties.
...
But he he he was very. He didn't let any of his music used in,
...
and there was ...no problem making earlier that, you know, for artists
...
who were doing in well, and he was a cult artist as well. You know, it wasn't like he was,
...
you know, Michael Jackson, you know, he could still earn enough money
...
to turn down, you know, this kind of commercial
...
you know, offers.
...
And that in the nineties slowly got reduced. I mean, in the nineties, I remember talking to friends who were writing in music for,
...
and they'd get a hundred thousand pounds for doing
...
a track in a in in a day.
...
Now, you know,
...
license is really important still, and, you know, I
...
license some music to film this year of my labels. So, you know, I'm not anxious at all, but you know, obviously, very few people as far as I know, get a hundred thousand pounds
...
for doing afternoon working now in the music industry. Whereas in the nineties,
...
it was it was more of that. So the question is
...
suppose, there's more money now than in in in the nineties.
...
People love music.
...
Just as much. If not more if you look at the figures of how much music is streamed.
...
So why
...
is our musicians
...
having to do fifteen jobs and like yesterday, I went out with a friend who was
...
the A and man who found Deaf Punk,
...
amongst other bands that I'm ...that's a decent fine. Yeah. And he was talking to someone
...
who went to a pub for drink outside in London
...
and the guy he was serving behind in the bar was a manager of a band, and he was busy saying My send some music next week. And I I was like, wow. When I first out in his. I never met managers
...
working pubs. They always had the money. So something's really drastically changed.
...
And, you know,
...
there's many different, you know, we could talk about that for a long long time really Give so blind and demands, you know? Yeah.
...
You're now. That's
...
we'll we'll sort down that path in a moment, but let's just
...
say what
...
friend Erica
...
might wish to chuck into the port Erica.
...
Hi. So
...
I am ...I teach a digital story towing in a broadcast program,
...
and, inevitably, I always get
...
a few
...
young well and sometimes older musicians, but that are kind of at the earlier stages of their careers.
...
And I'd love to know sort of what advice you'd have for them is they sort of
...
branch out there, and and
...
try to,
...
you know, build audiences
...
and
...
and and an income towards the music.
...
Where do people start now because
...
it does sound indeed like a
...
Pretty much like photography where,
...
which is what we were talking about before, and Atlanta.
...
Yeah. Couple
...
I think, you know, for me,
...
anything it always comes down to the why.
...
Why am I doing this? And then the next thing is what do I wanna really do and for for creative people,
...
I think it's very important to have a a clear view
...
what you wanna do and why you're doing it.
...
And and
...
with the technology world that we live and if you have clear focus on that, and there are markets for it. There
...
because for every type of music now,
...
and you're not limited by your local
...
geographical,
...
you know, where you are located
...
you be anywhere in the world and I'm connect with people and and different parts the world bit like that. So the music and, you know, what was being talked about genres
...
moving
...
and mocha every month this new genres being named,
...
So it doesn't really matter that so much. Right.
...
It's it's an interesting time that way. I i I think if as long as you have your you wise and and what you wanna do clear,
...
focus on that.
...
Medium come. Well so
...
we'll be picking up on all these on these threads
...
in the future.
...
Additions of the creative phone
...
because this is, of course,
...
a big
...
big subject
...
for
...
these young folks who want to
...
want to join an
...
industry that they love that they feel they
...
I have a chance
...
to belong in, but
...
as the rules have changed over the last twenty years,
...
I mean, the ones thing I would say is that
...
I think
...
I think Brian know camera over this very,
...
the idea that it's not one person.
...
If you look at any gray art movement that, like, was the person who came up with the idea and executed it it was a whole host of people, and it just so happened that one of them
...
became a sort of figure ahead for that scene or the person that, you know, most is that recognizable
...
And I think, you know, we're returning back for that time. Having, you know, this technology does tend to fragment us from each other, you know, despite the illusion of of
...
social collision that not using but these social mixing in it gives us. And I think, you know, the
...
which were musicians starting out in your own, you can find people who
...
you relate to who relate to your work and that's easy to do now with social media,
...
and it's not geographically located
...
as as, you know, as well as saying. So, you know, you can find people in Japan
...
who just you know, like what you're doing and
...
and i've heard other thinkers as musical think is so that we're potentially entering in ear of the guild again, So, like, in know medieval times where, you know,
...
the the the money was with the irish to crashing and the king,
...
and suddenly had the merchants arriving on the scene and
...
those setup up guilt are rather than one merged and against the power of the tax i the democrats in the king. They
...
sort of band together and therefore,
...
you know, set some kind of stamp on what they were doing, You know, there was, like,
...
by, you know, the girls all had the standard of of the work and it somehow
...
gave confusion to what it was that they were doing.
...
And, you know, I don't know if it's
...
I mean, it's an interesting idea, but I like the idea
...
that the network is stronger than the individual, and
...
I like the idea that
...
you know, networks,
...
if you've got, you know, just combining networks can create exponential networks.
...
If you have,
...
you know, five or six big networks.
...
You can have the reach of a big record label,
...
and there's a lot of work goes with it. Like we're saying, unfortunately,
...
you know, in order to make it, you know, make a living out of those networks. You've got to understand a lot of very
...
kind of particular
...
information that is quite detailed and is to do with, you know, metadata,
...
and legal legal structures,
...
but they're not
...
that complicated.
...
So just if you're a musician, it's not where your head always wants to go. You wanna be creative.
...
But if you can get on top of some of those ideas,
...
it buys you the time to be creative.
...
That's how I see it. Mhmm
...
What it be the case that
...
part of the confusion
...
out there
...
and confusion with a capital c,
...
is that
...
the
...
new models
...
of how to work with technology
...
and markets.
...
And the dynamics of taste
...
and
...
old media media, all those
...
overlapping
...
circles in this complicated little zen diagram
...
that these
...
new models are slow
...
to appear.
...
There is a lot of activity, but no clarity just yet perhaps,
...
the music
...
business has operated according to a set of model for a long time, when musicians
...
knew where they stood in the scheme of things.
...
Even if they have rebelled against it.
...
Now we've got
...
do we or do we have potential new keepers?
...
Beyond
...
the streaming companies.
...
Or is it likely to be
...
a a free for all, and there will be some areas whether I'd gate keep.
...
And there are some areas where in
...
individual musicians will be able to to grab a piece of the action. What do you think?
...
One thing I was just gonna say with that is I don't know
...
because it's bit newer. So so you
...
might not have stumbled on this yet.
...
We're good at stumbling please. Please have us and have a stumble. There's a there's there's a new sort of movement on the web towards what they're determining the the web monetization
...
standard.
...
And so so it was it started by ...well,
...
I don't know exactly who started by, but there's groups like Coy and creative commons,
...
and
...
That's that that have been behind the the movement
...
but it's it's it's all towards
...
micro payments..
...
And
...
having creators
...
make my micro payments
...
from their work,
...
or for further work and for people spending time on their work online.
...
And
...
in a way that is
...
where there is a more equitable
...
share of the pi to what is traditionally been on streaming sites. So I've been experimenting with this for the last three months.
...
I'm making
...
ridiculously
...
more money off of our documentaries
...
through this new web because people love it and want to want to make sure that you keep doing it.
...
Well, but it's also because of how it set up. So when we're on streaming sites, I don't think I've i've ever seen them.
...
I mean, a little bit from You youtube, but
...
you know, the mainstream,
...
you know, broadcast streaming sites that have that, you know, have have got licenses with us for documentaries entries. I have been see doesn't go any from.
...
But I
...
I'm
...
I'm ...you know, I'm I'm actually seeing real money in real money coming in every day from from these web monetization tools. And they actually do. I haven't experimented with the ones
...
musician and jet just simply because I'm not a musician.
...
But
...
I'd like if you can shine ...Yeah.
...
Yeah. I'll share it then in the this Telegram channel, but
...
just in case anybody feels like clicking something up right now,
...
tribe of noise is one of them, and it's actually it's been developed out of
...
out of.
...
I I believe ...I have to double check, but I believe the main gentleman behind it is is Based Norway.
...
And they have some other ones too.
...
So I'll I'll find out what those are and share them on the telegram channel.
...
Yeah. So I think for me, this is, you know, when I do could start getting excited again. And
...
you know, I mean, I think Twitter actually are included for some users now.
...
The ability ability for people to be tipped. You know? So it's, again, experimenting these microphone payments..
...
And, of course, you know, it opens the door to Chris currencies
...
because, obviously,
...
I mean, obviously, you know, the ethereum
...
and
...
A dog to the
...
example of that.
...
And,
...
you know, yeah, There's a whole paradigm, but then, you know, I mean, for example today, I was just interested in
...
you know, pushing a particular token for
...
the ethereum blockchain, and
...
the banks just blocked in England. Blocked all transactions
...
I was not allowed to do this. And when I called the bank, were like, oh, yeah. This is seen as high risk, and I
...
pointed out and that the bank that was talking to had been caught mean so much fraud since To her. Now and not before. But I don't know why still have my money with him besides that, you know, keep my money in the what wherever I have is losing me money. But, you know, so guess my point is that the there is some massive gatekeepers keepers
...
to
...
mean, I hope I hope that it will be ...the
...
some people will move aside and make room because there is ...you know, there's need for it. You know, that's see why we need to talk not pre platform. Or all these other things all of these sort of things take take time. Yeah. But do yeah. Yeah. Still with this whole sort of web monetization
...
space that they've been sort of setting up,
...
so it it's
...
it works through setting up digital wallets, and you can accept money at any currency, but the currency of choice that seems to be the community seems to be developing around as.
...
And so
...
And now on some of the channels, there there is this tipping as well. So there's
...
g fam and
...
Mg social, which are kind of like an Instagram and sort of a Twitter for
...
that are web monetized.
...
And it's good interesting that it should be ripple
...
saying as,
...
you know, they are working very hard to build up
...
storage relationship with the the
...
incumbent financial institutions because I yeah. It's a stable coin, isn't it? Too? Thank you,..
...
Yeah. It's stable, which is been, which has been great. But, like ...and I ...it was my first set of Foray and to to the whole cryptocurrency currency world just because I've I've been our ...there's
...
this grant for the web for creative that moment and you should keep an eye on it because I think they'll be launching another
...
round the funding
...
soon.
...
And I can put that in the telephone channel as well.
...
But
...
with
...
So so I'm a recipient at the grant, which has, you know, sort of led me into all the experimentation and things and and meant that I was a little bit more
...
open to to kind of experiment cryptocurrency in there. But I think I've ...because
...
Had left up within the last two months, like, drastically,
...
Think I've tripled my money I'd be making from
...
from just from the these micro payments. How good is that?
...
No no.
...
It's the interesting model. I mean, you realized that so much of our financial transactions are
...
it's not just financial transactions is is the way they are subtly changed,
...
The the money that is used
...
to kind of exchange our
...
and energy and ideas
...
is change
...
without our consensus.
...
You know, Obviously seems that inflation that does that, But, you know, that's kind of I think well I become really aware options since two thousand and eight. And
...
I think some of these, you know, decentralized networks, even though there's still many different types of people involved with them. So nothing's perfect.
...
They do ......they're
...
kind of more transparent weirdly.
...
And so, like, there's more doctors. I mean, these networks work just as i said on met, the more people use the network,
...
the more the value is of the network.
...
You know? And in the old days, you had to go to someone who already had a big network
...
in order to
...
have access to that, and you did that.
...
You know So the music in old days is if you sign to a major label,
...
you know, someone such the analogy is you borrow a money at twenty percent which obviously above credit card, colored right now. And then when you paid it back, they still own the house,
...
you know? And,
...
you know, it not surprising and so many musician to don't and good money..
...
So, Yeah. I find the cryptocurrency currency
...
interesting as is problematic in
...
You know what? Is not problematic mathematical I find it very interesting and I'm following it, and I'm interested in how that can be,
...
you know, as you're say and, you know, brought more into the lives of art and to the right
...
it's interesting with the whole
...
micro payments and everything and and with with cryptocurrency currency,
...
What why do we need these banks smarter we you all these charges more than you really need all this broccoli she just charged to transfer money to
...
the world to they won't come in i can see if it's it's gonna come in and and be use more and more.
...
It's very interesting we're saying that her
...
micro payments seen a quite a big uptake on her revenue.
...
You know?
...
Well, I have a question about the cryptocurrency currency thing with the Because my son isn't
...
an oil painter,
...
and I've had to find some because, honestly, easy he's a college kid. He's been giving away his art to his friends.
...
Just giving him his gifts,
...
as I oh, boy. I was like, okay. We gotta figure this out. Is your to make us quality content,
...
I think you need to find a way to monetize that to buy your supplies and such it does cost you time and money
...
But I told him about the Enough thing, but the more research, the more I think there's real no ownership there yet. So I haven't really seen a away for you as an artist to own it and own your rights. And, like, can you use it for leasing it or licensing and saying, like, stuff like that in a future?
...
There's still so new and I believe it's back my.
...
If ...you have you other sites that you can go on and you buy the
...
attach it to a digital
...
entity, whatever that is the visual audio lawyer is,
...
but you you register them and and you
...
you then you own it, and you can sell that..
...
Yep but definitely stop someone else from copying and just using it, like, how it it's a different different issue copyright and and
...
ownership of of an
...
that the separate issues
...
if you matter thing that the old copyright model
...
and what the the the the the ...you know, what N and cryptocurrencies,
...
you know,
...
how they challenge the idea of copyright, which to be found all digital technology done, you know, from the first moment, a piece of music,
...
you know, could be just clicked and copied.
...
Know, obviously
...
music it changed in the before that, it was very difficult. You had to get tape recorder a Cd burner or, you know,
...
suddenly it was just as easy as that. So ...but I think ultimately, a lot of the ...I mean, intellectual property was set up originally
...
to protect the copyright holder, which was the person you made the music.
...
But over time,
...
you know, copyright is a become a trade commodity like everything our culture.
...
And so quite often. So, you know, I when I write music for film,
...
the the companies you hear me. Will say, well, in order just give you the job.
...
We ...we need to earn your publishing copyright, and this has become standard.
...
Now there's people now starting to push back against this. People like David Arnold did he wrote the James Bond music,
...
And he's obviously enough money and his you know established enough composer to go well, you know, this is wrong, and I can make standard and not really,
...
you know, damage my career too much.
...
But
...
I think
...
you know, there's there's just things that
...
are kind of, you know, definitely in need of a lot of change, but they're the old copyright models. So in a way, this digital
...
of everything
...
is a threat to the old copyright model, but it no longer serves to some degree all of the artist's interests. I mean, it does.
...
Now I have publishing and,
...
you know, I have own own recordings. And my lazy I share all of them with the artists who mate them with me. So it's not like the old traditional music model.
...
But, yeah. I think there's a lot of optimism. But, yeah, It's it's the right question. I you know, to ask your son to say you're you're, you know, right from beginning your your work is worth something.
...
You know, because you're told are, it's not worth anything until become a big name, but really right from the beginning people should value their work.
...
Well, those it's also question.
...
Of of a simple definition of, you know, what makes a big name
...
you know,
...
we're we're not all
...
likely to be Mark Microsoft,
...
but there are many
...
visual artists who produce
...
really valuable, beautiful, interesting
...
stuff
...
that are not
...
famous.
...
But does that mean they have to wait until they get famous in order to start
...
protecting the work, Of course, not.
...
You're like so, then there won't be anything too to protect by the by the time they're fifty. You. That's the thing I told my son is you've already put the work and you've made these pieces of our all your friends at college
...
have them in their physical possession.
...
I was like, what I need you to do is give me a digital photo of that and high in 4k as much as possible.
...
And then I'm gonna start him an etsy store So you can sell his artwork
...
I'm I'm clothing in bags
...
because it's really phenomenal.
...
Yep. We're I mean, really is. Let's.
...
Is a multi billion dollar marketplace.
...
It's it's astonishing
...
how
...
not really astonishing
...
that it has, but how it has grown
...
and, you know, people evidently
...
loved the fact that they can buy something from the maker, and there are, you know, twenty of those things or however many. You know?
...
Exactly. And as as I told them if you become
...
just just ...he's done, like, six seven of right now, and they're all different things,
...
but I said they're all individual painting. Now you do these all these t shirts and bags or whatever stickers, but I think future shirts is where it works because I have a t shirt of star, and I I love that painting
...
and people wanna buy it. And I told them when they just put on t shirt and then share within your circles. I can share them my circles and we can all kind of because people who out Dm, I shared a picture of one of those paintings. There's, like, how much did that go for? Yeah And I'm like, if it girlfriend for. He just gave it to a friend of the birthday gift. And they're like, what is like a it's like eleven by fourteen or whatever it is. And for fifteen by twenty, they're like, that's like a thousand dollars minimum.
...
And I ...these
...
are lessons that that he will he will learn, but, you know,
...
by the same token and, you know, will need to learn that in order to be able to give
...
his works away to people whom he loves
...
he has to actually be able to support that habit.
...
And,,
...
you know, high quality paints are not exactly cheap.
...
Music, you can you can give away copies of your music, and you still own the actual music and you saw me recording. Yeah.
...
Writing that things. And I tried pulled out, thanks from a little bit of a business point of view. I told you just did a painting a month. You could pay for college.
...
Yeah.
...
Saying music. That's the great thing about the
...
age we're living in is the he you can easily find a market for. And the the one like that is actually setting the price. Right?
...
That with brand summary many times that they just would the reserve
...
or it's on a live situation with they
...
don't be under eigenvalues themselves.
...
They don't the face granted.
...
And I think I think quite often now as well, I'm seeing more and more the artists
...
coming up through Instagram, and and, you know, they get signed to galleries
...
later,
...
you know?
...
Because the gathers can see how much money they can make out of them. You know, before the galleries even can get involved, you know, a lot of the artists have got huge networks and are selling
...
substantial amounts of work and and,
...
you and I think so it is exciting, you know, if you're starting out at the moment, I think,
...
you know, this is there's a lot of
...
room for optimism.
...
In the ...you
...
know, the old models I've I've been creaking for a long time, and they don't work fully.
...
And when know like there weren't alternative. There are lots of more sentence it's not. Know your models the mostly restrictive, and that's the thing. You know mostly they were controlling sectors of the industry, and they're very restricted for and artists.
...
And that's changing off. It's say this a very excited if I was twenty, I'd be very optimistic. Definitely. That's that's what. That's fine Kinda get him to look into Enough. It is a a fiscal investment to create this thing, this digital
...
account, If you were this visual asset
...
of a painting,
...
but then you gotta hope itself, which stuff there's no guarantee and anything else. Right? But if you're if you're on the ground floor, you know, you wanna be coconut pepsi.
...
And I told them, I was like, you know, you might wanna consider this. Even I do wanted to invest in helping him,
...
put the money forward. And so hey, here's your first one.
...
Now the rest of the less expensive from the post.
...
But this just such a new wild
...
format. Is nothing really
...
it's all malleable and moving and and with the mark in know, so I'm really not too sure to tell them.
...
Well, this this host price is actually
...
so new and so dynamic that
...
probably the best
...
best
...
advice that you can give him is to just
...
look at where
...
the where the concept of of of a nifty of an enough
...
actually sits in relation
...
this fame has gotten a hype curve,
...
which you may or may not have seen, but the general Idea is something gets
...
invented
...
it is hyped immensely. Everybody goes this is the greatest thing since sliced bread by nine o'clock next year everybody's forgotten about it. And then three weeks later or three months later, three years later, it is simply just another way of of getting stuff done.
...
And then all of us are then you get
...
economies of skill get efficiencies,
...
and it is simply,
...
you know, possibly, I suspect, and if things will be you know, ultimately,
...
just another way of of
...
funding
...
the arts, Chris you were waving your arm
...
in the air, I could say it from here.
...
If you'd like to to hop up on the stage, please,
...
please
...
wave your hand again because I think we've lost you or maybe I will just press this button.
...
And see see what happens there.
...
And,
...
yeah, we're coming up to tow to the end, but let's please have another another little round of comments and questions to the guys.
...
And
...
see what's sort of a positive
...
note we could possibly end on?
...
Chris?
...
Hi.
...
I had to come in and go out several times for technology issues. So I'm sorry about that
...
control. It isn't beta. We're all. You know, you know know,
...
we're we're waiting for but they are scaffolding too until just get
...
removed, you know, remove. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
...
So anyway, riveting conversation,
...
I I I hope that I'm not repeating something that somebody else on this panel already said.
...
But I wanted to make two points
...
one to voice and the,
...
he's right. This is a very, very exciting time for that. I believe ...I I know the first rock band on a major label dropped
...
an album with
...
About a week ago, maybe two weeks ago. And I think it's we. I please don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure it's an alternative band.
...
So I wanted to put that out There Is it's the wild west, and now it's the time to make a move.
...
And then one of you was speaking about
...
twenty year olds and what an exciting time it would be,
...
It would be, but
...
there's
...
there's a built in flaw there, and that is when you're twenty, you're not always savvy to the way of business is run.
...
And the they do ...so they ...they don't know where
...
the where the weaknesses are in the music industry right now, unless they're reading traits and unless seeing the conversations like this. And so a lot of people still think that you either have to
...
send your Mp3 round or what have you and they're not employing Industries
...
So it's it's really ...it is the wild west, but, like, so many, there's only going to be a few winners in this whole thing. And it's really exciting. And I wanna leave you guys with one thing that
...
he didn't say this to me, but he said it to my colleague gears ago. The ...like great David Bow said something that applies to your conversation,
...
and that is he said, during Napster,
...
just wait. All of this are i a a fighting
...
on Capitol Hill, it's all really just ploy.
...
For the record labels to be able to come up with their own firewalls
...
to make this business
...
model work for them. They are not
...
anti mp3 three.
...
And you mark my word. He said at the time,
...
they will be all announcing their own platforms within the next year or so. And I get chills every time I think of that. Well, you know, this is
...
directly
...
related to major bank major banks major this.
...
Cryptocurrency cryptocurrencies following longest time. As been longest time it
...
times we know sixty six months a year.
...
And then setting up the road
...
best fancy.
...
But that's that's a subject for
...
conversation
...
conversation.
...
Guys. And most certainly is. And I'll I wanna let you go, but we're ralph. Let me put a a bug in your ear also,
...
that I would love to talk to folks at a later date. You talk about the creative farm and that these craftsman, like, coming together in small groups.
...
I would like to request that you consider having a room that talks about the beginnings of a smithsonian lodge, and the reason why those largest came together, they were all trades, and they all had secrets, and that's why they are secret societies, And I think that would be really exciting to explore on your show.
...
Modern day sequence societies rooted in the apps. I cannot think of a more exciting voice. Subject.
...
Thank you, Chris. I just saying we will see your smiling avatar pop
...
in
...
episodes, future,
...
gentlemen, and ladies.
...
Thank you very much
...
for your time. Thanks for being with us.
...
You have been listening to the creative farm and
...
with me,
...
around the back of the the
...
tractor shed,
...
were lionel lodge
...
songwriter,
...
recording artist, and
...
licensing
...
specialist
...
and Adrian Coca,
...
musician composer, and owner of
...
tow, I think, adrian two labels,
...
two very small ones, are
...
recording
...
and publishing
...
really quite exciting.
...
Experiments in sound. If I may call them that, thank you very much indeed. We will catch you next Monday.
...
This is a regular program
...
and have a fantastic evening. Thank you. Thanks
...
awesome.
...
Nice to meet.
...
Cheers..
