No same.....

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Oh

Good evening.

We are starting a your series

here on another the creative farm.

On an occasional series, I should say,

devoted to the future of the music business.

Be inviting accomplished musicians and other fog

experienced in this field

in an attempt to figure out where the business of music

might be headed for individual musicians and composers

as well as for the industry as a whole.

It's certainly

interesting times, and it's going to be

an interesting discussion. I'm sure.

My name is Ralph Helm, and with me today,

two gentlemen who

know a think or two about the music business

having worked in parallel,

as it were

as musicians

and as hundreds of roles other than purely creative.

Listeners to the creative farm will be familiar with Adrian Co.

Coming in from London.

Is a composer.

Of music film and television,

whose credits include in star now in its third season, I think, good

Yeah. Thank

And many other productions in the Uk and the on the continent and the owner of two labels

publishing

rather delicious. I have to say experimental music

and

joining us around the far end of the

vegetable patch is lionel lodge.

Who is a singer songwriter

according artist with

twelve albums

of his own to his name plus, plus many, many other works besides

who has also been, among other things,

a booking agent and editor of a music

Magazine

is a leading expert in music licensing and is now

setting up a licensing

start

Welcome, Gentlemen.

Hello.

Hello.

Let's

let's dive

Let's dive

straight straight in. Shall we say?

The disaster

that's Brexit.

Is a curse upon the music business yet. I Know your licensing startup is a Uk registered company.

Can you talk about that, please? And can you also give us maybe a little bit of of an insight into what you're doing and how you're doing it?

Okay. Great. Great. Well, it's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

The the choice for the Uk one one was ...I don't sound, but I am British.

And

the for the safe licensing singer, there's really two hubs clothing

long is gonna be changing that, but it's the London and La.

And so the choice was the Uk or the states. Set up the company,

and with brexit, being ...I'm actually based in Austria, and that would be a very bad place because we're just confusing things on as far as our trading and everything goes in the Uk.

And so we decided to set up in and we're actually crystal.

So the brexit did decide that if it was gonna be this wall for business, then let's be on the other side of it.

Basically,

very well. So this is purely

playing into established business practices and relationships and not having people guess

what this new startup is all about.

Yeah. Yeah. So so but the the the companies called Sync large

it's basically a simplest

management

project management system.

So it's a focused on music supervisor individual production companies well that side of the industry,

and we built all the tools that they need to to really do the

from the start the concept of the project to finish on the same

inside,

and it's totally free for them to use, and then we also

copyright holes and create

different and publishers.

And it's it's so an ecosystem for the for the ...you know the system is quite ...you

know, the music industry is funny. It's a funny thing because when we look it on other industries and the data and sharing your data and the organize organizing the data and standardizing of data.

They seem to figured it out quite a while ago, and music just be still just ...it's

to get standardized. They're talking about q now, but

you know, it's it's ...between the countries in between the companies and between the organizations, it's very hard to standard the the movement of data.

And so when you say date, how you mean the metadata

information about the the actor pieces of music That that's one side of it. That's one side of it. And the the other slide is actually also communication.

So the there mysterious of, like a Facebook page. There's a few facebook pages and music super say probably your Facebook plate is

I'm a member of a couple of them, and the the biggest ...the

most number of posts are asking other music you provides you know how to get in touch with somebody that is owns copyright on this recording.

Anybody know how to get in touch with them? Then doesn't sound terribly efficient or ...shall we say?

Easy to expedite.

Well, no. It's it's and it's silly. It's just silly. Right? I you know, you have these creative people music supervisor who creative people and they bought down with all other stuff.

And so our system basically automate a lot of it and connects people and verify copyright

automatically. And,

it it's it's bringing out the industry up to modern age in a way.

The industry as a whole is being dragged

at a rapid trip.

Into the the the modern age, some sites of it it's very exciting.

Not. Yeah. It's

is it is hugely exciting. And, of course,

a platform business is a data business. And unless you have data, you cannot actually offer

makeup platform,

so not that longer ago. It would be very difficult. I I suspect

for you to create a a a solution.

So do such as a ...such as yours.

It's still difficult.

You know, doing with some of the organizations are so convinced and and standing,

and they have very many levels of management.

And so to get a a a new idea, put through

as been a singer as there's being a a quite task and we're still working on it in some areas

but we're getting here.

We'll get back to the technology

I dare say very quickly in our discussion,

but let's tell let's circle circle circle out and up

Let's take a

a abroad of view of my birds i idea, if you will.

Adrian,

Today,

the

music artist

is also the music promoter is also the music producer is also the social media manager

is also,

you know, at least a dozen other things

Well the most flexible artist

thrive will those who actually pick up all those skills most easily?

I guess I mean, it's already it's already happening. I mean, I think, you know, obviously I came from a time.

Really before social media and the Internet. So,

you know, my early foray into releasing music can also

doing music for film, you know, it it kinda created a lot of that age and

So, you know, I kind of look with ...we've a kind of a bit a bit of distance on the way that musicians now have to.

I mean, I think

I mean, you know, for me, personally, I run a label. So, like, you know, I have to do a number of things, some of which I don't think I'm the best to do, but at necessity, I have to do.

And some of these things do relate very quickly to,

you know, what I was send about data and and and like, you know, just this kind of

it it becomes the music industry now, actually,

a very

you're, you know, very kind of ...data

alienated

filling in queue sheets, checking q sheets, understanding,

you know, new ...or, not new copyright. Cop. I've always existed that I was collecting on your behalf, for example, there's one called neighboring rights,

which is, you know, suddenly of his agency, she's spring up all around the world who Are realizing that there isn't cross ...there

isn't,

you know, collection between Britain and the the collection agencies that do this all around the world. So that they set up and do this. And you so, you know, you end up becoming almost

very heavily involved with the entrepreneurship of

of of of the business side as much as kind of like getting on social media and promoting,

which, you know,

again, coming from an age where

you know, the early nineties

it was still possible for musicians

to not actually,

you know, get involved really with advertising.

I mean,

I remember,

you know, the bill Hicks got skirts the same

sketch

I'm working an advertising, which no seems incredibly,

you know, the fun Everyone become their own brand now,

particularly in in the art everyone's five for, you know, kind of likes in attention.

But there was a time when people could literally say, no. My music is not gonna be used for this. And

obviously,

just thinking about market, you know, where music could say no through. The music was worth more.

Now that everyone has to say yes to the same kind of deals.

The music is with less. And

I think streaming and all the kind digital platforms a part of it, but

I think just muted music has been

you know? I mean, this is perhaps me coming out it and, you know, lionel ...it's got more experience on this than I. But, you know, just it feels we do have to value quite heavily in them i how hard

you know, musicians work to, you know, develop these skills of which I see the generations which you incredible the amount of things that they can do.

You know, ultimately people are fighting

harder for less.

And I I don't know how you can fix that without changing the underlying structures.

It seems really

really strange dichotomy where

on the one hand, yes, music like many creative

and there is being

comm really.

On the other hand, there are

many more opportunities

to to make a living by plugging in somewhere

where, you know, that somewhere did not exist five or ten years ago.

How

how would you explain?

Or perhaps how would you

work with that dichotomy? Line do you work with that dichotomy me? Is it possible to master that process?

...it's ...i there are artists that are doing this. Right? There are independent artists that are doing this in the google and you know, and then somebody that's that's really worked through the different social networks works and

but it it's a it's a funny thing because it changes.

You know, it's a creative thing in its own way. Right? How do you do this

it's a very creative thing in own way, but it does

take away from the focus on music

as an individual.

If you are

like, like, agent saying and in the past, I was in the in you tune every nineties with the band,

And before I I was in canada with a band in their late eighties,

and,

you know, we we were signed, and we didn't have anything to you know, we we talked about certain things, but we had a press agent we had that we had a booking agent

we created the music you showed up and your played. Right? Yeah we agreed to certain alamo

with ...we didn't have to think about any of that. We just spoke a music Okay. And it we it does change the and I think it also changes the

the the creative focus from from the

the inspirational side of it, You know, if if this is your focus to be

get so many likes and get so many followers and do these certain things on to talk and such and and keep up with all

if it I think it changes you reason why you're doing it in a way.

It's interesting to see happen.

But I also think that with anything like

other goes and in frequencies made it's own way, so the further that goes in runway way, and will come back way.

Not that the maybe will be even more investing the the

the

other side of the creative of music. You know, it's it's

it is interesting, but it does take away. I think ...well,

it certainly changes the dynamic and it and and it changes the dynamic

you know, best positive. And shall we say not as positive ways,

it would be interesting to consider what you know

an artist like black, like Pete might

might do with, you know, social media and how what he'd think of

gaining

likes as a currency

or people of, you know, his

generation

But then

an interesting thing to consider, of course, is this old age old question of simply how

an artist ought to be able to make a living.

And the question,

which was, of course, sm away,

since tommy Memorial has just been dashed with excel.

If anything,

the pandemic has exposed the

ina and the fragile facility of the established quote and unquote

ways of making a living.

And

later there too. You anyone

would care to pay attention the truth, which

artists have

known and have had to live with or a long time, the uncomfortable relationship

of career and luxury of money

and art.

But

unless you are indeed focused as you were saying before,

guys on

simply doing the thing and ignoring everything else.

For better worse.

It always is a balance. Isn't it? I mean, it is a sort of a tricky dance, but it's a tricky that's that most people

have to do.

What are they one are some of the new dance steps that that people

inventing. What are the new ways

that you're saying

that actually have worked for people, not necessarily in terms of you know, buying their bentley and number of again, but just simply being able to make a living

out of their art in ways

that were not possible ten, fifteen years ago.

Well,

I mean, for me, you know I think I'd said this in previous

of these talks.

Know, Bank Cameras last year was a It was a really interesting in, you know, salvador across the

the decks of like, what could be possible. I mean, you know, bank camp was always quite to me because it was a fan oriented

so, and you could download high quality files and you could sell merchandise and it's a bit clunky.

And

but, you know, ultimately, last year, whenever everything shut, you know, people were buy director artists,

and

I think know a lot of people really enjoy the media of it immediately have been able to buy and, you know, obviously people can go to shops some people getting stuff delivered,

and until Brexit happened, well, at least in the Uk,

which meant that suddenly people stopped buying from Europe at the beginning of this year.

Because of the import duties and the uncertainties of what taxes are gonna be put on

records as was a postage.

But, you know, think Bank camp

even though centralized network, it kind of stays out the way of artists.

Obviously, takes percentage. Even though last Friday, for example, you know, I think because people know they do these bank Fridays where they don't take any

any

percentages of of the direct sales that artists

may on that dough.

I you know, I I think I just some should do a campaign to make Paypal.

Do light likewise.

They go take their emissions.

But so, you know, I think, for me,

and these are still very early days of this, but I mean, I think it's applying some of the things that I've seen encrypt currencies

and the token

economy where,

you know, the the the models changing and

is about the network,

and it's about met,

and the power is in the network that you have where it's a a meme a equipped currency

or an artist with a with a piece of music called with a set piece of music.

And if you get to the point where, you know, your network goes exponential,

then you can be doing the most crazy music on earth.

You know I think that the old music model work like well you have to do music.

That has to fit into a template, was generally

involves

relating back to some degree to music already existed because it's easy to sell, you know, I mean, Remember the eighties, his world music appeared, and Peter Gabriel will came up with that term, and suddenly he'd going to a Cd shop when the were those things. And there was a place where you could actually find this music.

I think no. You know, it's much harder to,

you know, sort of gen, you know, make Genres as about music, but there's still

feels like a massive

onus on the past in terms of the music that gets made, even though on the fringe of music, which I guess is what I'm sort involved in with my labels.

Is this huge amounts experimentation and forward thinking and I mean, there is pop music as well, Don't get be wrong. But I mean,

But so I think if the if these network, you if you can

I think the thinking I've realized is if you have a network doing something very strange.

There's it's a big world out there. So if

if if is enough people see the value in that,

it becomes something that you know, can generate

a following. I mean, I know a pascal music label that really has, I think, a thousand plus really regular

people that support the label, and that is a a solid business model. You know, they're buy most of the stuff that it's made. It's a Cd

manufacturing

model. So Cds are quite cheap to manufacture.

And

that works. Now if you listen to that music, agreed that's to a major label,

they wouldn't touch it with a barge.

But, you know, this serves a real good function. It's is is releasing really new music.

And it is putting money in people's pockets.

We'll have to we'll have to post that

name the link to this this company, Adrian in a in a

telegram channel. We have a telegram channel people

where we post, indeed or will be as soon as we have some diverse

stuff about all the various things

that we talk about on the farm,

lionel

successes and failures for you in

searching for new models both and on the music side and under the business side. Share.

Okay. So well

to me he has always been a funny thing. Like, I'm I'm a person.

I've never really ...I've never

an early age. I saw famous something that didn't we want.

I wanna make music more be famous. It's it's an inexpensive

expensive piece of jewelry to wear.

Yeah. Yeah. There's there's an old saying. I forget who who

came up with it, but fame is the mass

that you wear and it eats at your face.

Right? You know, real quite Jessica image on that. But it ...yeah.

So ...so for me, i it was just success was always reaching that point with the music that I felt was actually where I wanted it to be.

Right? And you you never actually get there. Right? It's always you can maybe touch with the tips to your fingers. But you know, so we're work in progress. Right? Yeah. You're and it's always changing..

But on the business side, it is ...it's always been

I found myself in situations where it seemed to be the most large next step forward was to do some and then that's sort of happened a few times where that clue into business.

And, like, with a booking agency, it was just a matter of i, but was ...I was just cooking myself. And other band said, how do you do that? And I asked me to do it for them the next thing and know a couple years later Have ten people working for me and we're looking all over the Uk.

Right. And and so that's that's ...and then I realized that's not really what I wanted to do, and I would just wanna to make music. So I went back to music.

And and

know with the business I'm doing now, it just seemed like ...I looked forward it for about three months.

And I was working ...I I just started doing sync licensing, which, which is an

an element that's come up in the last ten fifteen years what you question earlier,

that is is quite different now, and it's great to, you know, the the amount of visual

product is being produced

is is going up as much as the amount of songs that are being produced.. So

it's with all the different streaming networks for for a video.

So it's it's an interesting thing for artists say, there is the opportunity there. And if you can get a good sync, it can give you some of money there and I know bastard that have covered your own through the Covid

covered recordings of albums just in sync licensing.

Just kept the band going for a another years, so.

For those for those listeners who may not be familiar with the

very technical term, sync

license. Give us a a six sixty second pre. So, yeah. It it's there ...we go placement of music and visual content, so in films and television shows and

and and video games and advertising.

And and to do that, there is contracts and there's a fee that goes along with a placement.

So it's sync licensing. So they actually license it from the owners and publishers and the record companies.

And if you're the already ...a lot of times, do have a say, it depends on your deal.

But ...one of the things like age the saying earlier about

over

usage is not only on this student's side, it's also

like in the Uk there blanket licenses. So

B

and

Can go into what the the the the

one of the organizations called Apl.

They can go into their catalog, which is basically everything that's produced in the Uk mostly,

and they can use it whatever they want.

For what I really want. So they pay monthly. So

you saying. They on. Right? And they can just go into the and and choose anything and and and use it.

And supposedly that money from your yearly payment goes to the Artist as a fee,

but I i've known some bands that were complaining there to one of the majors and they were complaining that their music was used in some team

Tv show.

And it was really counter to the what the band thought their image should be,

and they couldn't stop it. Without pulling their music out of this organization, which makes it so then you really catch yourself off from well, not great street. If you're a black metal band

Yeah. Yeah. That's sort of thing. So so we couldn't actually forward.

And know guys in their play their their situation on other fronts for loyalty. So ...this

is ...the

my advice and that is, you know, only own stuff. The world is opening up, and

like, like a age who is also saying about

with if you are doing things on the outside

of what is esteem is the most commercial center of music, which is is always one and it shifts as time goes by.

But if you're doing the all said now, you can actually find

markets for you all over the world.

Right? There might be some people in Beijing that just love your stuff. Right? And maybe it's a couple hundred people, but that's a pretty good thing. If you do that in few different and spots around the world, You can actually start making a quote

a decent living.

Well, this is a this is an idea that we were talking about a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly,

lionel

that, you know,

it has been said

that, you know, an artist really needs

a thousand two fans, and that's an interesting ...note that that that as we should have just mentioned the number

thousand, but, you know, whatever it is whether it's one k or five k, or however, many thousand,

to fancy the the the the the group of core individuals

who are really interested in what you're doing

doesn't have to be here because doesn't it? No.

No. No. That's really an interesting

element that's changing the music industry that

and it's it's it's it makes it so ...you know, they ...there are if you creative with actually looking for ...i'm making this type of music there are

organizations there are of groups, your people that are

advertising that they like that of of music and and networking with them.

You know it's

you like, back back in the when I was younger,

You have your hometown, and you gotta get four, five hundred people in your home child it's gonna come down let we show you doing.

Yeah.

Right. And you got ...you gotta get back going, and then you can maybe go to the next city. Maybe you can get some industry interest right in the next year, you gotta build it up even bigger. And there's always really condensed localized when we think about a thousand and five thousand you globally that's such a stalk, and it's operation

real..

I read on that

on that direction that you mentioned, just a moment ago, the subject of shifting of genres

and blurring of lines, which is something that we talk about a lot on this show.

The blurring of lines and and confusion of

of

silos and categories.

This while being

enticing and delightful on one level, it also brings with it a serious challenge.

On both the the push

and the tools. I mean, how do you sell

new music?

If it doesn't easily fit into a genre. And anyway, if there are no genre restaurants to speak because there are no Cd shops, to speak of and people don't walk down the third i to get to that black metal,

you know, bin.

And how do you find new music

if you're a a music freak like me,

who wants to main it starting at six or block in the morning with my first espresso,

and I don't stop and until I felt fall asleep.

I mean, you know, I have

many albums, but I want more. How do I find them?

Yeah. I mean, I I was funny if I was talking to

a friend who works Michigan studio the other day, and I was ...I

was just, you know, doing my usual thing, Saying, I wish by five was a bit. That's I don't use it. So ...and

she was explained she was she's music soon supervisor and and that how amazing it was to her that she could

find music quickly and

a supermarket music a supervisor for those who don't know is that person who actually

creates their

the the the sound or of a movie. Right?

Yeah. I mean, you know, you get given briefs and but you have to find music and it can be very specialized It might be

you know, film set in Taiwan in nineteen sixty three, And there's a there's a a kind of level of almost sort of historical accuracy, but I think in the old days, you know, you just to define that kind of music would be very difficult. But

so, you know, on one level, this someone like that, he's so spotify the answer to your your question,

I then talk to friends who were like hardcore musicians, and they say, I only listen to music it made by my friends, an rgb and b. Right? You know, so that ...some a friend of mine. Who says that that is the current music. This habit

with craft.

That's that's they have a lot of friends who were professionally music. So the constant

stream of of new projects that she gets to through them,

you know, is is a way of oriented and and and kind of finding a new ideas, I guess.

I mean, you know, I think there's no one answer to, like with a lot of where we're at at the moment, you know, you can simplify it, which is what spotify does and, you know, for commercial reasons,

it does

fit, you know, effectiveness and and speed, which is what A lot of technology enables

is and, you know, getting rid of the friction of of the experience, but if I works, but I quite like friction. I like it quite like things being difficult. Sometimes they're quite like,

discovery music by accident, you know? I mean, the first days of the Internet, I would just almost you know, so

find things that would totally change our heard music, and I still don't know how I did it, but it was just the early days of surfing on the Internet.

Mean, now I I have the opposite problem in some way you're often, you know, I've obviously Make music, but I also have too much music I haven't really sat and properly listened to. You know, it's like, the kind of pile of books by your bed that you haven't got around to read and everything of.

I I have a bit of that problem with music. I've listened to it. But sometimes I catch myself and say well have I really listen to that? You know, it takes me back to, like, when I had a couple of albums and as a kid, and I really would really really listen to something.

So,

you know, at the moment, I'm trying to kind of listen

harder to the things that I'm interested in. And I'm not so

interested in in in listening to thousands of new pieces every the day even though every day I find new pieces.

So

I have the opposite feeling I need to kind of somehow

put filters in to stop too much music

come in my way.

No testing. Like ...I know. Yeah can't be such. If it's just strange,

maybe I'm I'm strange this no I'm with you on that adrian.. I I I I find it ...sometimes I feel like I'm missing a lot. I'm I've there's so much thing

least every day and missing a lot other times I just have slow myself down. And just think ...no, Actually, I'm just wanna listen to something like this.

And I'm not interested in in in

keep keeping up with it. Or there's certain moves that you want as a sort of the music to fit into.

Well..

It is it is

sometimes it basically a great rabbit holes

or find myself going down,

So and and just listening to things and and and the checking or that artists and this me something else that's apparently like it and enough old sudden fun I really love. And i gave him was saying not knowing how I got there.

Well, this is, you know, this

reflects directly in people's ability

or not.

To sell their work. I mean, last week,

oh this week, or I anyway,

I'll, you know, start with Ralph

To

That can dance

that bit of wolves in the front room.

Some cro caught possibly with

If you don't know him looking up, kim and an amazing accordion player,

and then swing swing around to some John John John Prime in in in the evening, and

which is great.

Because I know what to look for, but

how do I

ask Google.

Yeah go go give me something like, you know, Ralph Is solar guitar,

but something I haven't heard yet.

There's got to be a business model in that.

I think there must be. I think very there is, you know, because mean, people love

discovery and people love.

But the reason there is there's a business It's speak ...because people love music

An obvious thing to say, but maybe it needs same.

Yeah.

They are in the sequel world there there's a lot of companies that are making what's called

sound like searches.

So so they been did a catalog and they finger printed for the styles, but it is all different to script of metadata temporal and mood

variance smooth and and implementation and such.

And then you can find a song and you say, actually, that bridge of that song I really, like, finding more like that.

And if we find everything that like that, that's that's in the catalog,

and then you get

half a dozen songs with a bridge that is similar or or beginning pretty similar.

It doesn't have to be the bridge right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like i I got it. Yeah. Well, yeah And, of course, that's, you know, that is that is

just technology that's made it possible. I wonder what sort of levels of

interesting

Ai, whether it be simple

or more sophisticated

processing,

they these guys use, and it would be really interesting to have a chapter them at some stage.

It's the top of the hour

that you are listening to the creative farm,

and I'm here with Line lodge.

And Adrian Ko, we talking about

the future of the music

business

given

that

without the business,

it's hard to get music other than, you know, you know, friends playing it

in your living room.

Let's drag some humans under the stage if they wish to do so. And please don't feel

you under any obligation to pick up the microphone if Throw it your way.

And

by but by all means, if, you know, if you'd like to check something into the pot, please you do.

Let's

drag Erica

in here.

And

boys

or is it boys?

That can never tell with that name. It's a mystery to me.

I think his voice.

I would say voice.

I'll i'll bet I'll bet two bucks on boys.

And and Patrick,

please join us if you wish,

or not. I'll just sit back

chill and enjoy the conversation.

Voice. Welcome.

What have you got to throw up the of the guys?

Oh, yeah. It's it's voice like a rolls royce, but cheaper.

It's an ex ...it's it's it's it's an excellent version that anyone can afford.

Exactly.

Where are you coming from? I'm in Michigan

in the stage.

What what music businesses is to be had in Michigan?

Not a lot.

Was not a big scene here. I I actually go to Chicago

to to see

the bigger concerts.

All altogether a different scene at that.

Yeah. It's ...well,

of course, the the last two years of ability any concerts today sort I just started five. I love live music, and

yes just not hammer. So

it's ...it's coming today is coming when we will be able to enjoy it's can live music again,

are you in in the music world yourself voice No. I actually, did more like Stand Comedy when I was younger, but

I'm just a huge huge fan of music and art and just, you know, that expression I just love it.

Well, this is why this is why people like lionel and

and Adrian do it,

I think

if you ask any

artist,

scratch

all slightly,

this, you know, hard

of a

a tough tough professional to get negotiating

percentage points on the on the royalty the contract, they will actually tell you that, you know, unless people

love their music then

that's kind of little point.

Yeah. Yeah. This is all the why. Right? And since it that supposed it for me.

And and I always ask myself at the beginning before I do in the room

why am I doing this?

Right make. Okay. It's a lot fun I really enjoy it but the big parties I've got these songs and actually wanna share them.

Well, ultimately, you're doing it for yourself, of course, because you have to because you have no choice in the matter. Right? Yeah.

But then then then leads the wanna go out and play. Yeah exactly. Yeah.

This wanna go and play. So you gotta just let them out and play. Right. So you let the

the push to that is recording.

But we are talking about the business of music and

quote from from

the one only Tom Weights comes to me,

and I will ...and

you inevitably screw it up, but it goes something like

my songs

like my children.

I send them out

in the morning and tell them, go out there into the world and bring daddy home some money.

No.

I'll be sitting here with my fairy.

But Top is a really good example because he was one of the options you kind of you know, came prominence in the eighties and

did amounts of money in the music industry. And

you know, in the nineties as well.

I remember he he actually ...was

very lit with people who licensed because, you know, people deserve of tom weights, you know, it was quite tangible,

you know,

how many partners have been drinking you know? Yeah. I'd dare say, pretty much all of them possible by the end of the eighties.

But he he he was very. He didn't let any of his music used in,

and there was ...no problem making earlier that, you know, for artists

who were doing in well, and he was a cult artist as well. You know, it wasn't like he was,

you know, Michael Jackson, you know, he could still earn enough money

to turn down, you know, this kind of commercial

you know, offers.

And that in the nineties slowly got reduced. I mean, in the nineties, I remember talking to friends who were writing in music for,

and they'd get a hundred thousand pounds for doing

a track in a in in a day.

Now, you know,

license is really important still, and, you know, I

license some music to film this year of my labels. So, you know, I'm not anxious at all, but you know, obviously, very few people as far as I know, get a hundred thousand pounds

for doing afternoon working now in the music industry. Whereas in the nineties,

it was it was more of that. So the question is

suppose, there's more money now than in in in the nineties.

People love music.

Just as much. If not more if you look at the figures of how much music is streamed.

So why

is our musicians

having to do fifteen jobs and like yesterday, I went out with a friend who was

the A and man who found Deaf Punk,

amongst other bands that I'm ...that's a decent fine. Yeah. And he was talking to someone

who went to a pub for drink outside in London

and the guy he was serving behind in the bar was a manager of a band, and he was busy saying My send some music next week. And I I was like, wow. When I first out in his. I never met managers

working pubs. They always had the money. So something's really drastically changed.

And, you know,

there's many different, you know, we could talk about that for a long long time really Give so blind and demands, you know? Yeah.

You're now. That's

we'll we'll sort down that path in a moment, but let's just

say what

friend Erica

might wish to chuck into the port Erica.

Hi. So

I am ...I teach a digital story towing in a broadcast program,

and, inevitably, I always get

a few

young well and sometimes older musicians, but that are kind of at the earlier stages of their careers.

And I'd love to know sort of what advice you'd have for them is they sort of

branch out there, and and

try to,

you know, build audiences

and

and and an income towards the music.

Where do people start now because

it does sound indeed like a

Pretty much like photography where,

which is what we were talking about before, and Atlanta.

Yeah. Couple

I think, you know, for me,

anything it always comes down to the why.

Why am I doing this? And then the next thing is what do I wanna really do and for for creative people,

I think it's very important to have a a clear view

what you wanna do and why you're doing it.

And and

with the technology world that we live and if you have clear focus on that, and there are markets for it. There

because for every type of music now,

and you're not limited by your local

geographical,

you know, where you are located

you be anywhere in the world and I'm connect with people and and different parts the world bit like that. So the music and, you know, what was being talked about genres

moving

and mocha every month this new genres being named,

So it doesn't really matter that so much. Right.

It's it's an interesting time that way. I i I think if as long as you have your you wise and and what you wanna do clear,

focus on that.

Medium come. Well so

we'll be picking up on all these on these threads

in the future.

Additions of the creative phone

because this is, of course,

a big

big subject

for

these young folks who want to

want to join an

industry that they love that they feel they

I have a chance

to belong in, but

as the rules have changed over the last twenty years,

I mean, the ones thing I would say is that

I think

I think Brian know camera over this very,

the idea that it's not one person.

If you look at any gray art movement that, like, was the person who came up with the idea and executed it it was a whole host of people, and it just so happened that one of them

became a sort of figure ahead for that scene or the person that, you know, most is that recognizable

And I think, you know, we're returning back for that time. Having, you know, this technology does tend to fragment us from each other, you know, despite the illusion of of

social collision that not using but these social mixing in it gives us. And I think, you know, the

which were musicians starting out in your own, you can find people who

you relate to who relate to your work and that's easy to do now with social media,

and it's not geographically located

as as, you know, as well as saying. So, you know, you can find people in Japan

who just you know, like what you're doing and

and i've heard other thinkers as musical think is so that we're potentially entering in ear of the guild again, So, like, in know medieval times where, you know,

the the the money was with the irish to crashing and the king,

and suddenly had the merchants arriving on the scene and

those setup up guilt are rather than one merged and against the power of the tax i the democrats in the king. They

sort of band together and therefore,

you know, set some kind of stamp on what they were doing, You know, there was, like,

by, you know, the girls all had the standard of of the work and it somehow

gave confusion to what it was that they were doing.

And, you know, I don't know if it's

I mean, it's an interesting idea, but I like the idea

that the network is stronger than the individual, and

I like the idea that

you know, networks,

if you've got, you know, just combining networks can create exponential networks.

If you have,

you know, five or six big networks.

You can have the reach of a big record label,

and there's a lot of work goes with it. Like we're saying, unfortunately,

you know, in order to make it, you know, make a living out of those networks. You've got to understand a lot of very

kind of particular

information that is quite detailed and is to do with, you know, metadata,

and legal legal structures,

but they're not

that complicated.

So just if you're a musician, it's not where your head always wants to go. You wanna be creative.

But if you can get on top of some of those ideas,

it buys you the time to be creative.

That's how I see it. Mhmm

What it be the case that

part of the confusion

out there

and confusion with a capital c,

is that