The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

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The future of entertainment is interactive.

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Transcript

...

Good

...

evening.

...

Welcome to the creative side. And i had the creative farm. Gosh. It's been hell of.

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So my time is going to be

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Hi. I'm afraid.

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The creative farm

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where we talk about

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pretty much.

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The cutting edge of

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the business of creativity and the business of performing ads.

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And

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tonight, it's particularly

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particularly

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special.

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Evening where I get to catch up with

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chops,

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one of whom haven't spoken into in twelve years.

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But more on that in just a moment.

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We are going to be discussing the future of the music business.

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This is the second in

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series of

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these discussions,

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we will have some more occasionally.

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Because, of course, the music business is like

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so many other creative businesses have been

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at crossroads rhoads you know, for many reasons,

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business reasons, political reasons, technology reasons,

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And the age old question of how an artist ought to be able to make a living

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if anything has been dashed with excel

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over the the last twelve,

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fourteen months or so,

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So

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this

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is a good greater farm and joining me

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out in the public to gentleman well versed

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in the

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of the music business

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Paul work,

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we could say,

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drama and music educator, but that's not quite enough

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seven grammy, lots of other gong.

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Going on a couple of hundred records, I think,

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from associate professor of Jazz studies as at Roosevelt Universities,

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Chicago College of the home arts.

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And

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Evan Ko

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musician, owner of two labels of experimental on music and, of course,

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composer of music whole film and Tv for over twenty years,

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coming in from London and Paul

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is coming in from Chicago.

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Let me just make sure that Pork and

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get in on this stage.

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This is

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a beta up, and we are still trying to

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avoid the following bits of masonry.

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Gentlemen, and welcome, and it's a great pleasure to hear you again, Adrian, and Paul, welcome to the creative

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farm for the first time, and I'm hoping

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not for the last.

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Hi nice be here again from a very rainy London.

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Paul, I'm I'm glad you've ...you've made it.

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It's been a bit of a struggle with this with this app, but

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we're all we're all learning to

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use it properly. Sure which I use it to it.

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Full except for as long as as we can.

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Let's get stuck into it..

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Because

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we like to move reasonably quickly on the show.

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And

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let's get

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straight headed for the.

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The elephant in the room.

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How much of this

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current

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dramatically

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changed music business?

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Still plays according to the rules you have known

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over your career gentlemen.

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Adrian, please if you would take it up,

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Well, I started in the nineties.

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And it was it was an area where, you know, vinyl

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Cd had just arrived, and the ...the major labels were resetting a lot of their old catalog

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in this new format.

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Which I think

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injected a certain, you know, more money into music

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during the nineties. And also, vinyl was still very big and

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it was the year of the first digital

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electronic music coming through from people using

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going, you know, computers, midi

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samples,

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you know, people had that at home. So

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the means of production had got very cheap.

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And

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when I started the majors were very much in in the on the back foot, there was all this new music that was coming out

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out of the wood and they knew that they hadn't paid for there was people making music without having to go to major label,

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sign a deal. And

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so there was a little like explosion when I started it was the first last real recession as well in the early nineteenth over here.

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Where where you know, things,

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you know,

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we're

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controlled, like, sessions seem to be now it really was quite a rough time more.

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And

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so, you know, it was he was quite a a proactive time when I started,

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and there's was a lot more money in it. And

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as I said, the independence seemed to flourish a lot more

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Now it feels like there's a periphery, which is where most us exist and there's a center,

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which is the monopoly platforms with

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or, obviously, for example, Spotify is is majority shareholder holder owned by the major labels.

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So according intents purposes is the major labels now have the monopoly

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music platform on the planet.

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And for me,

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that isn't a good thinker in these issues. Not a kind of musician. I am anyway.

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Are

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always

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good for some.

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And bad for most.

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It's interesting to consider what might happen.

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However,

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when

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the disruption happens to the disrupt doors,

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and

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given

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the equity

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and the availability of

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tech that most of this time works well.

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The next generation of spotify and

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other similar similar platforms

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i dare say is just from the corner.

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What will happen when

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the

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becomes

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even closer to to something even event closer resembling

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monopoly

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when there are even fewer

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players because that is

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is certainly

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possible.

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Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, I think

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you know, I think the fact that there are so few companies, you know, I think they have nights ...it's over ninety percent of the likes stream extremely or the streaming

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music is comes out those three companies. There are only three major labels known.

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It might even be higher than ninety percent.

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You know, when I started with six major labels and now there's three,

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and you're right. It could get even less

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And obviously because they have catalog. They have these vast catalogs that they've acquired over the years,

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which gives them

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the advantage and that people want choice and I guess,

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you know, spotify does have that

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But, yeah, I'm not really sure what's going on in terms of whether there will be

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more bio in the music industry, and it'll be two companies competing. It feels at three.

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Maybe could good.

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I'm not sure.

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Paul

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if I could just ask you to hit that

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microphone button bottom right? Because as it is, you are muted.

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And

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it would be awesome if we could actually

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get you properly set up

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in here.

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Bottom right of your screen,

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You should see a microphone button and

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or, one that says

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mute yourself.

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No.

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Yeah. Okay. No. This is what we have. This is what we call dead, ladies in gentlemen.

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And this is the vein

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of any

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any

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interviewers life

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technical difficulties,

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unfortunately,

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still with us here.

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I got it. There we go hey oh look at that. That excellent.

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Paul. Welcome again. It's a real pleasure to to talk to you after

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god nearly to nearly twelve years after this crazy experiment where which will we ...which we will talk about

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tonight

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because that's one of the

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one of the interesting discussions that I like to talk to have on the the digital side

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of of things. So or we're to Drummer, and

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educator. Welcome. Again. Thank you.

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So, yeah, I was listening to Adrian,

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you know, his response,

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you know,

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was very eloquent, you know, pretty comprehensive.

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I I think I must be older than him

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because, you know, I started playing,

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you know, probably

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maybe late sixties, but really in the seventies, you know, say early to mid seventies

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and back then.

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You know, it was just unbelievably great

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because even though,

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you know, your parents would still say, like, you know, why are you musician how you're gonna make a living? Be back then,

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and I'm not even talk about the recording industry. At first, Time gonna talk about just even live gigs. I mean, back then

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there are live gigs

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everywhere. You know, every hotel had a lounge,

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you know, you had every wedding

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or

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We had live bands,

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you know, what i and, you know, and then they're they're recording sessions like shingles, especially like, in Chicago,

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so, you know, I've recently found a book from nineteen seventy eight. One of my date books. And, you know, I was averaging probably, like, fourteen to sixteen gigs a week back then.

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And,

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you know, it was ...you know, not to ...it was good.

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Filthy you.

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Free..

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That's hard the best of times.

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But

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the ...it was just so exciting because the scene was really alive.

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And also, the music was very I mean, at that particular point in time,

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What

...

yeah. You know,

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And I I. ...Everybody

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car.

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Didn't say, you know, you know,

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music stop, like,

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as pro ...oh,

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you're.

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I stuff like that. That's just silly because music keep advancing a g. And so many of the students I teach,

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you know, mastery to non music major. So I semester and the power of black American Music. I just taught one

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Is this better?

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Hello.

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We are being plagued by tech

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technical issues.

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Yes. Yeah. You know what i I think well.

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It's better, but this is ridiculous because,

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you know, I ...this

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way ...it sounds as though we we might need to ...we may need to flag it and try it

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once

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the this this

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environment has

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has

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settled itself

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into a more

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reliable mode, unfortunately,

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and we try to play in real time when the latency was, like, probably, you know, more than three seconds.

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Guess, let's just play free, and it came out great,

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but then

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the the Wifi went down there. I think she stopped just ended up playing that That's pretty much pretty much what what what happened then. And I would love to actually pick up that conversation

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once once we have been able to swap this out,

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what did you hear for me? What, you know? Because I was making a point about how, you know, there were so many live gigs back then. I didn't even go into the recording history. Yeah. Exactly. No. We did hear hear about you you're you're, you know, dusting of your your your diary from. Okay. Right back then. Yeah. Well, you know, the other thing about teaching my classes is, I don't know if you heard me to ...you know, I'm talking

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about teaching all these music history classes.

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Even non music majors too. And, you know, just researching this, I knew a lot about it, but, you know, you one of the joys of teaching is that you're able to

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learn more. And, you know, it's it's like in going down the rabbit hole where there's so much knowledge out there and so much history and so many new books and everything.

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And, you know, the music business has never been fair.

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You know, it just depends on who you were where you were

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you know,

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it was ...it's always been, like, sort of the the power structure, whether it was the b building

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you know,

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or whether whether it was, like, the

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of ...I mean, even, you know, if if you look at

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ask,

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and then you look at Bmi. So those are the two things, you know,

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loyalty companies. I mean,

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ask didn't really wanna cover like, black music,

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you know? And music, that wasn't like, sort of, you know, the normal

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going through the normal

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building kind of thing. So then you have Bmi.

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So it really depends on on what was going on. And, you know,

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when I was talking to know about adrian

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being older than Adrian,

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there were a lot of labels

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that

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or around then, you know, when there were records cassette, you know? And

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for me,

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I would go down to there was a record store in Chicago called Rose records. And on the second floor, they had all these blow out records, you know, on small labels,

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that might be, like, you know, Esp, or Actually from France, and I would just buy these records.

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And it was so fun because you you could learn so much about just

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getting home with a jacket

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in your hand with that contains this vinyl record and degree the liner notes.

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And there was a connection

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to a physical product, and there was a connection

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to who was on the record who who engineered it who produced it who played on it, you know, for me, you know, obviously,

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and other people, this mother sad is points is now

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it's just in the air.

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And, you know, you can go to disc discount so you could go, you know, the certain places and if you're gonna really search out, like, you know, who's the guitar player on this record, you know? But back, then you didn't have to search it out. It was just there when you bought the product,

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it it was, like,

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a documentation,

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and that's what a recording is. If you think about the word recording, it ......it's

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just like a record of, you know, whatever

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in your life, you're your marriage or whatever is all a records.

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You know,

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so those kind of things for me has has been one of the saturn points because, you know, it a lot of my students are really good, but some of the students

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or or some just normal people. I mean, they don't know

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what

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you know the connections

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from the past or like someone, you know, some great artists or some great engineer, or whatever,

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you know, what they had to do with this record, and then maybe that other band and blah blah blah so I think there's that sad connection we're Spotify

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everything's now in the cloud,

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great. But let me ...let me tell you really interesting story that scared me a long time ago. When I ...when I was with Pat,,

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we have done it gig. I think it was in stockholm home.

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And afterwards, you know, we were invited to some bar, You know, they have some food afterwards and stuff. So he went ...we were invited and we went to this, like Disco place.

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And I was never a disco kind guy where we go in and the room is filled with different televisions all showing different stuff.

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And they're playing, like, pop music, but they would play, like, you know, I

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satisfaction by the rolling stones, which is, like, about, two and a half minutes or something they would only play about, like, a minute of it, and then they'd go to sun else and it was a minute of all these pop, which are already short.

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And I asked the Dj said, like, you know, why why

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are you not playing the entire tune? It because hope people get bored after a minute.

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And we're talking about nineteen eighty three.

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So that's the other sad part is that people have so much to choose from

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and everything is so ...like, if you don't if if it's not interesting in the first three seconds, you move on to something else.

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You know? And that's the whole industry is it's but it reflects society

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because that's the that's the way people are now. And many people, you know, in the old days and in the United States, we had three major got casting

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stations.

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Now, you know, you have, like, a thousand channels that you could watch anything, and it's, you know, you can watch anything that was

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you know, from the past or,

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you know, it's just ...it's just changed the listening habits of people. Half of it seems to be from the future.

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This is just un bond that you just described this unwanted of

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of the music from the stuff that surrounds it the art, the photographs, the liner notes

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the information that is carried within the stuff that

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that's around the the object that you can hold

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in your hand,

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it this un abandon removes

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the music from its con context and landed it's cow rule setting in terms of culture. This is impoverished. Isn't it?

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As far as I'm concerned. Yeah. It's just ...it's just giving you sort of the icing on the cake without giving you the cake.

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You know? How much I think can you eat? Right? Well, that's that's true. You know?

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And the thing is it's it's just ...I mean, I I try to stay positive. I mean, you know, I'm I'm the kind of person that's gonna look at things.

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And I'm not gonna say, well is me? Because throughout artistic, if you really look at the history of the recording industry, you know, when when radio came on, they thought that was gonna be the end of of of, you know, cheap music. Well, in some ways, it was, you know, and then you had jude boxes

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so though that's gonna be the end of of another, but the stuff always seems to replenish itself.

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So I I'm, you know, I think with adrian said maybe there's some new things that are ...you're gonna come out. But for me, like, spotify

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is, you know, when you look at the and own Spotify he's, like a billionaire, He doesn't even play an instrument.

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And, you know, it's sort of strange. Because you were thinking that,

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you know, there's business people,

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and then there's artist, and it's always been like that. You know, the there's always ...you know, there's been people

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that would go

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and they were business people, and they might not know anti about music, but they realized oh you could make money making music. It seemed like a good idea.

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And, you know, that's the way it is now. So nothing's ...the

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the the basic

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thing hasn't changed. It's just the format,

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and and the

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distribution of the way the music

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put out is

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Mhmm Mhmm.

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Part of the confusion

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That's that we're living through. It seems to me

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confusion at the moment of the moment is that

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no

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clear new business models

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have

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appeared

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once,

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you know, the platforms have settled in,

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and now we are going through a period of

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tectonic

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change, for the last fourteen, sixteen months, of course, have been

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an upheaval in terms of

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live gigs and and performances and and and what have you?

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So this this remodeling that

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inevitably,

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must come as a result of this because

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hoping to go go back to the the the the old normal that would be falling. I say. Mhmm.

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This stream remodeling hasn't happened yet.

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What might that took like gentlemen? What do you think this

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remodeling of

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how music is bought

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and consumed my look.

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Well, I mean, from where I'm standing, there's a lot of different things happening, and,

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you know,

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some of them are kind of back the future. So for example, it's talking to the people who manufacture my vinyl with my label,

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and the vital manufacturing times have just got so long now because everyone is printing everyone is making vinyl.

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And I had even the record stores now actually have fine or on their ground which I am seen for years.

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So, you know, partly, people are returning back to the physical,

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which, you know,

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as paul say and, you know, is an important part of what music plans feel is a connection with music might more than than than the content

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that we, you know, come stream and listen to.

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But then on on the other side, I see

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there's definitely movements in the Uk. I don't know about you us or else elsewhere where people are taken on the music industry, there's is an organization called broken broken and record,

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and

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they are currently

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taking They are lobbying the government

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try and change the

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copyright act

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to

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shift the definition

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of

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how the royalty is calculated to from streaming

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some of would be more on par with radio,

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not that it would be

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similar royalty rate, but they they're trying to get away

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from,

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you know, this

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that allowed Spotify to, you know,

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sort of class and

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price a stream as they now do, Not just by Youtube and everyone else.

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So, you know,

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I think part of this new potentially inflationary age that we're in is you know, inflation to create unions, not the other way round and

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or sorry inflation correction unions. And I think I'm seeing that I'm seeing people mobilize

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and, you know, take on first time in years, take on

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different parts of the industry trying to, like, change the actual

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economic

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structures that underpin. And as paul says have been unfair from the the the get go, you know, this

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I that's gonna be a long battle, but people are trying it. I mean, for example, I think I said last week, there's a composer of David Arnold who

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you know, was right in James Bond moved in music in the nineties, and he's currently,

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you know, social media saying that's unfair that when a composer rights music from a Tv,

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the commissioning company

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obtained the publishing,

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you know, for nothing,

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for most cases,

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tell because that's that's that's the way it is. When it that's the way is we'll give it someone else if you don't agree to that. It's just become interested standard. And, of course, you know, I understand this reasons for that, but at the same time,

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it means that, you know, musicians

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are losing

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huge amounts of money and

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So this things like that, then I see, you know, Berlin there's a company called resonate. There's different companies that are utilizing different

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technological

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solutions resonate is a a stream of platform, but it's a paper play

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cooperative owns. Streaming platform

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where, you know, the musicians own

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the music on the platform.

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So, you know, it's

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trying to set up an alternative spotify.

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Mhmm. There's different

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people trying different things on the blockchain involved,

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which we touched on last week.

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Which is very early stages and, you know, that's

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slightly kind of

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crazy in its first iteration, but I think, you know, that could turn into something

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potentially useful as a tool for artists

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to

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you know, generate

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income from their work.

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So from from your vantage point as

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professor of jazz studies. Mhmm.

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How much of a business like approach do you see young musicians?

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Taking today. How much

...

wait do they

...

place

...

on

...

the their ability to to simply make a living going going forward.

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Well, you know, I ...one, of course, is I do teach is is a music business course for one semester.

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And, you know, a lot of the students, you know, they are kinda shocked.

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At, like,

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just trying to explain just, you know, your rights, you know, not only building a website and all those things. But, you know, having

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documentation of, like, if you're in a band and who who wants the band name, you know, all all those little things that that that

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people, you know, wish they knew about a long time ago, and they find out the hard way a lot of times. You know, they're ...you you've seen so many bands that break up and then you know, there's lawsuits about who's, you know, who is the leader or all that kind of stuff. And and so they're really appreciative

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of of the things I teach.

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I don't think that they're main

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concern, which was similar to me probably at that age, they just wanna play you know, they just wanna make music it. And so

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that's one of the beauties of of being an artist. I mean, they're not in it for the money just like the business side isn't it for the money. And that that's great until they get older, and then they'd start realizing that I made these mistakes. So you're trying to turn it on, but the passion of playing

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is really what it should be about.

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And, I mean, that's that's sort of how I started. I mean, I would just play these gigs

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And I was, you know, I was likely enough

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that I played with great musicians and, you know, I wasn't worried about the money back then

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I was worried about just playing and and expressing myself. So I think that's still their main concern, but but I think it's really important for schools to really teach that

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to at least give them a foundation. I mean, but it's funny. I mean, if I use

...

John Pass book, everything you wanna know about the music business.. I mean, I think it's a tenth edition ready. It's almost like, every year, you have to put out a new addition because everything is changing, so yeah. You know. Yeah. And but I I really think for music to be alive,

...

it it needs to come from the right place as as the reason you start playing music to begin with is just because you need to do it. You know, there's a there's an inner passion.

...

And I mean, it's interesting with Adrian talking about, like,

...

more improvisation or or more creative music. I mean, my band were a cocaine and gray, we're releasing our eighth

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recording and

...

it's one hundred percent improvise. They've done that my whole life, and we're not in it for the money. All all three of us are either professors or

...

filmmakers, you know, we can just do what we wanna do in a pure format,

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which is the reason I started playing. And even at age sixty eight, I still feel that

...

you know? And so there's the craftsman part of the art form. You know see if you're a jingle musician, you know, you're a good musician, and that doesn't mean that you can't be an artist either, but there's also, you know,

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the craftsman ship that when you go into studio, you're not wasting time. You know, you can read down the chart. You can play in time, get the right sound, you make the producers happy You blah blah blah, and then there's that creative

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that each of us are individuals.

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And, you know, some people are afraid to be an individual because if someone doesn't like you as you

...

then it it's ...it hurts more than if you're just saying well I'm just trying to sound like, blah blah blah blah. So

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I think it's really important that we keep music alive and keep all the art forms alive no matter no matter where they go. Because, you know,

...

deck in the day, you know, say jazz was, you know, kinda looked out upon. And then when B

...

kinda came out, you know, you. People like, Louis I'm armstrong and Cab Kelly calling a Chinese music and stuff. I mean, there's always new music and Black and roll came out. You know, the jazz musicians, lot them didn't like it until they realized that all of a sudden, the younger jazz musicians grew up with the beatles and John Ca train at the same time. Some music always changing, And now we have rap and hip hop and all these various kind of music.

...

I never poop through anything. You know? I think it's really important. To take whatever you're gonna take,

...

and then it's almost like spices. You might not use

...

turmeric and everything. You might, you know, but we you wanted it to be there.

...

So I think I mean, for me, even country Western music, I mean, I'll listen to anything as long as I think it's it's good and it moves me. And I think that's our responsibility

...

as artists and as educators to to unlock the doors of our students

...

to find who they are as individuals.

...

And I think that's joy way we to keep the industry alive. And, hopefully, the business will allow them to kinda get out there and find an audience.

...

We've had several conversations here on the creative farm.

...

On the the rapidly

...

expanding role of digital tech,

...

not just in creating, but more and more in the experience of performance.

...

There are, obviously some clear advantages

...

there regularly

...

clear stumbling blocks.

...

Let's circle back

...

to that crazy experiment we did

...

twelve years ago, and that maybe come back to what to today

...

and

...

and

...

see where you guys

...

see the the potential

...

of digital technologies and unfolding Adrian, You haven't heard this story.

...

I'll I'll let paul tell it because it's actually really quite fun.

...

Other one that the experiment from, like, two thousand ten.

...

Yeah.

...

Okay. Well,

...

what happened there was, you know,

...

I had known just Sc asking, great

...

great base player from Poland and we have probably, you know, like, the premier electric base player I had done some stuff with him,

...

and all of a sudden, this guy ralph taught context me by doing something

...

and

...

it was like, oh,

...

what do you mean? And he goes, well, you know, the it's kind of a ted talk. Yeah I think Ted talk we're just starting back then, really? I'm that ...we we were one of the first next events outside of the states. Right. Okay. So

...

what end up happening is we were gonna play as a trio. I I forgot the keyboard player's name Like, you know, I'm ludwig in Oakland

...

In Doctor New zealand. Right? Okay. So all of a sudden I'm set up in Room nine twenty five at Roosevelt University

...

and

...

just us on stage.

...

In Warsaw,

...

and Tom is like, you know, he's in in in New Zealand in there. So we we try to play for a second.

...

And like i the latency was so long. I mean, it was, like, probably a couple seconds long that's a groove was basically impossible

...

because

...

she stop is gonna play live,

...

you know, in front of an audience in Warsaw.

...

So I made a suggestion well, why don't we play free?

...

You know? Because if it's free, then if it's not in time, the the colors and textures would just hopefully blend just like nature.

...

Which is what we ended up doing.

...

And that we played and it's on Youtube. It's it's about a twenty five minute piece on Youtube. But I think we only played together for about ten minutes because then for whatever reason the Internet went down, we we were unable to carry on. So then just not just played a a a solo based thing. But it's but so funny is like this last last semester. Right I taught the Avant Guard Combo.

...

And one of things we did because everything this year at Roosevelt was ...I'm

...

not zoom, You know? Because it was all remote.

...

And so I'm wanted ...one of the last tunes we did. I just told the four people, sex

...

keyboard station and drums. I said, play for three minutes. Just individually,

...

but then

...

we'll just layer those tracks and you won't hear the what the other people did.

...

And when we played it for other

...

teachers and

...

fact, you know, and students, they loved it. And they had no idea that it was just

...

these four things just put on top of each other, which has so coincidentally just made music.

...

But I think that was part of it. Was an experiment, with, ...you know, because we wouldn't have been able to do that

...

usually live. You don't do that even though one time in a studio,

...

we actually were in different rooms. Night came up with the idea let's just play, but not hear each other. And when we heard it back, it was amazing.

...

Because just the incidental things that would happen from the personalities

...

was so interesting.

...

So I don't know if that that tells the story enough. But to me, it was really fascinating that that was sort of the start

...

of a lot of stuff that people are doing now, but the latency now you can almost play it together. I mean,

...

you know, depending on where they are and and the strength of their signal,

...

we're getting to the point where we're almost

...

able to play live.

...

In different places now, which is I it's great. Yeah. Account you you you can't count ...ignore

...

physics altogether, but it is getting

...

getting easier there are there are

...

three or four platforms that i've just seen. Right

...

Jam and and and others, you know, Right. And when you said, they're not perfect yet. But when you think about saving the planet, you know, not not everybody

...

flying on their airplanes all over in some ways, that's gonna be allow people to be able to maybe not have to go live everywhere. Even though, you know, I'd ...I'd much rather go to Italy play live and italy even and then watch them, get off the screen and try to try to play along.

...

This

...

phrase that you just used

...

incidental things

...

that that happened while you were

...

recording these

...

these use little these experiments, which evidently worked adrian,

...

incidental things. They're important

...

in how your music

...

comes together and how it has then

...

then

...

experienced by people who watched their the films and they

...

and the television programs.

...

Because

...

of course, it is hugely

...

hugely I a

...

subjective thing.

...

But we were talking about

...

a couple of weeks ago about

...

the direction.

...

Of

...

potential direction because, of course nobody knows

...

of how they

...

experience of performance might actually turn out

...

and seeing as the

...

adoption

...

of digital tech, on the production side and the the consumption side, hate that word, but i I haven't actually

...

come up with a better one, maybe audience code.

...

It is, you know, the you know other adoption of technology is is so huge and

...

so fast that

...

know that neutral will come up very quickly.

...

But the incident things, those special

...

subjective

...

experiences.

...

Can they ever be truly

...

translated?

...

What tech are we going to have to invent? Well,

...

yeah. I mean, I think digital technology is

...

digital music and electronic music, you know, is

...

just

...

a thing that is developing leaps and bounds and mean been around obviously since the second world war when a lot of technology

...

that became electronic music equipment was was developed really as part of the second world war and one second were ended

...

tape machines.

...

The code is are actually, I think, originally designed as some form of

...

signal scramble,

...

and Obviously see Stevie wonder and others took them and did

...

very

...

different things with them. So, you know, there was that explosion electronic sound, and I think there's gonna be ...from

...

a non creative

...

route ...it was a review from warfare, and I think,

...

even though ...I

...

think, you know, this pandemic will create and is creating, you know, an acceleration

...

of the way people perceive

...

and have a use judicial technology which doesn't try and replicate. You know, So, for example, since when I started,

...

you know, I started with the sample,

...

that basically was taking

...

small

...

chunks of sound, and then you could recon them using maybe using a keyboard and, you know, do versions of real acoustic instruments, and it was very crews, and it still it really.

...

But

...

now it feels that digital technologies and trying replicate the acoustic or a real environment is trying to

...

it's just doing it's it's it's going out for you know, into place where, you know, the original pioneers of electronic sound were

...

we're aiming, you know, And there's a whole ...there's new generations that are doing incredible stuff all over the world at the moment I'm aware of. But the same time, I think

...

you know, there'll be an inverse of that, which is already ...I'm assume which is

...

sense of the space, you know,

...

the sense of the space in the performance,

...

you know, as any musician knows is is a factor,

...

you know, even if it's just

...

you know, the reverb sound of the room or, you know, if you're a professional

...

drama, I guess, you know, what the kind of delay is if you've got small little room all these things influenced.

...

You're plating. And

...

I think

...

even though you know, digital saying kind of almost my some body performer and the sound from its it's performance from it.

...

There's a come some embodiment and inherent in digital music.

...

Then I think there's a there's a parallel, which is embodied sand back in physical spaces, but, like,

...

composing with space, and it, you know, it's been, again, this has been going on for a long time.

...

People do multi channel same pieces where you have people record

...

friend of Mine Chris Watson will record at the bottom of the ocean using

...

using

...

hydro that record underwater.

...

And then he will piece together a ...a, like, a journey like you're traveling on the bed on the on the bottom of the sea, which, of course, none of us can never do.

...

And you literally hearing the sound, and it will be like a narrative to it, but then They'll be played in a large

...

a large rig, but huge marker, take modern type, you know, art space.

...

But it ...and this time is moving around just like does in in in the real world, what experience sound.

...

So, you know, people have been doing these kind of things for a while, and I think there's gonna be an even more acts, you know, more

...

focus on space and sound because we're gonna just

...

feel the

...

intensity

...

of real spaces

...

even more after this period where we've all been separated from each other.

...

And from experience and sound, in that way,

...

And for me, you know, acoustic,

...

Even though I'm always interested in electronic and digital

...

technologies, you know, I do love

...

my one of my loves is just a way sound combines in a space,

...

you know, and if you start to get away from the notes and a piano keyboard,

...

just you know, the kind of effects that you get with just raw sound acoustic, you know, waves of sand

...

know that are composed or combining in ways to create, you know, these magical

...

effects and things that you can't you replicate.

...

Poor

...

Yeah. What shape music

...

in digital technologies.

...

Well, I love what Adrian was saying too, but, you know,

...

the the idea of sound because if you really look at,

...

you know,

...

what silence is, it's just like if you were a painter or, obviously, you have the Canvas

...

and then you're gonna put whatever you're gonna draw on it. So you can either crowd the entire canvas with the multitude of colors and stuff. Or you can be, like a Japanese

...

painter, you know, and maybe just

...

put something in the corner and let the space

...

be the the the, you know, the silent sound

...

you know, we have John Cage, for instance, you know, like, with four minutes and thirty seconds his piece where it's silent, and you just listen to what's going on around you. So,

...

you know, whether that's ...you know, whether you you're in a format where it's gonna be analog or digital,

...

I think what digital has done,

...

has allowed us to have a bunch of new sounds now,

...

and that ...you know, there's always new plug ins. There's new off since there's all kind of sounds that just don't naturally

...

exist in nature,

...

but they can be manipulated. And when you really think about, like, you know, say,

...

twelve notes to the octave.

...

You know, I note is a note, basically.

...

So it's the sound of the note.

...

So

...

you know, whether you were playing a trauma bone with a plunger or whether you're playing, you know, a guitar with a wow panel, you're trying to make a different sound.

...

And that's ...you know, if you look at the late sixties seventies, there were so many new sounds coming out. And then when synthesize

...

came out, even if they were analog

...

and even mono,

...

those were sound you'd never heard before.

...

So I think there's gonna be

...

a multitude of new sounds coming out all the time,

...

and it just depends on on what what you gonna do with it. You know? Because they're sound for sound. I mean, noise music is pretty interesting. I had a, you know, a student who is a honor student that was just into noise

...

and so that's just, you know, manipulating,

...

you know, drills and stuff to make sounds. So there's so many things that'll happen it's just a matter of people can relate to it and feel something from it. Because music has always been ...it's it's like a relationship to your life.

...

So that's why it's, you know, a song, even if it's just an instrumental if it's a minor key or whatever, it can ...it can get people to feel something or when you hear a song,

...

from, you know, your life. And you can remember exactly where you heard that song, and how you felt. Those are things. It's gonna be really interesting to see if people can still relate to some of the new things.

...

And and, you know, it's hard that as a sixty eight year old, I keep an open mind

...

and. But, you know, it's hard to to think of what a fifteen year old here is now. You know? So when I was listening to the beatles and things were blowing my mind or if I was listening to black music,

...

you know, that that were they were culturally making you aware of situations that I was not living in, but now is aware of how other people were living. Those were really important parts of music.

...

They told the story. They told about culturally to about the society.

...

I don't you ...it'll be interesting to see what the new music does or if it's just sound for sounds sake.

...

This is the creative farm. My name Ralph, and

...

we're here out in the opal.

...

With Adrian Coca from London and Paul where

...

from Chicago.

...

Paul yep

...

played with the iconic Polish band Bb

...

for a while.

...

Years

...

yeah. Nine ten

...

albums with them over a period of

...

what was major change in polish business and politics.

...

We're living

...

throw

...

a period of change

...

in, you know, different dynamic, but also, a huge

...

repercussions of

...

of change in

...

business and politics and

...

relations

...

relationships globally between

...

people

...

society's countries.

...

What was what was it like then?

...

And what what is it like now? And where do you think it might lead

...

the business of music?

...

In terms of positive?

...

Outcomes.

...

Well, the first time I was in poland was nineteen eighty five with the Pat Manuscript group.

...

And, you know, at that time, we landed

...

and the plane was surrounded by soldiers,

...

you know,

...

I'm remember doing these gigs where

...

you know, it was really hard to even get fresh fruit. You know? It it was just a different time. Things were very some very repressed.

...

But there were some of the best audiences we ever had. We played somewhere I forgot the the venue, but it was Hitler had built it at this gigantic dome,

...

and we started playing

...

first circle, which is in twenty two eight, which starts with just this clapping

...

of two and threes, and the entire audience started clapping in time, and I'll never forget Pets said something afterwards he goes, man. I'm never telling a polish joke again. I mean, it it was it just blew us away. So when I played with, it was pretty much from two thousand one into about two thousand seven, two thousand and eight. And by that time, you know, things were ...it seemed pretty normal. You know, it seemed to ...you know, the rhoads were still bad at at different points, but

...

it's it's seemed, you know, you could get good food.

...

You could ...everybody was, you know, it was just it seemed very hate to use the word Western, but it really seemed like, they had kind of like caught up to what, you know, what the ...what Transfer or London or anything would have had?

...

So

...

it's gonna be interesting to see what happens with the governments,

...

what, you know, like, different governments if there's repression,

...

because sometimes

...

repression brings out more aggressive music,

...

you know, you know, like, free jazz,

...

in in

...

Ussr or in in Poland was more popular

...

when things were bad because people are not not only angry and frustrated.

...

But the music sort reflected that. Monday because the sensor had no idea how right that music. Right. Exactly. And, you know, then you had great composer say in in the Sicilian Union, that would incorporate folks songs, Georgia and folks on and stuff. To kinda sneak through the message.

...

You know, there was a way of doing that So then when things open up and everyone gets happy,

...

all of a sudden, people just wanna dance and have fun. And I I know. I mean, I just recorded with a really famous Spanish singer.

...

She's ...like,

...

I wanna tell you who she is, but she's like, really, like, the Barbara dry of latin America,

...

and it's on a major label.

...

And it wasn't promoted that well. And when the the the

...

musical director of her asked the guy Warner brothers there, like, you know, why aren't you promoting it? He was like, well, no one wants to listen to this music. They just they just wanna play, like, dance Cisco music. Now they wanna promote So, again, you know, the industry always gets its

...

tentacles and stuff and and and changes it to whatever it should be. You know, which is unfortunate

...

because, you know, there's a great Frank Example

...

interview on on Youtube where he goes well in the old days, yes cigar guy, and you would just say, I I don't know what it is, but if it sells fine, and they would just put out all these records,

...

Some of them, you'll sold a lot, some of them didn't, but they they were in the stores, and they would influence people like me for instance, and then later on, the the the and our people ended up being more of these long haired kids that they knew the industry they fought, and they're gonna change it and and it kinda kills it. So for me, what we really need to do is keep all the options open.

...

You know? And, like, anything, things are gonna rise to the top,

...

you know, sometimes from the talent and sometimes just from the,

...

you know, the exposure and the money that's put behind it, but you can't

...

unlock your dream. I mean, like I said, earlier, we're the cocaine gray. We don't care how many records we so. We just wanna get it out there. So I think

...

the government you know,

...

what who knows what the ...what they're gonna do. I remember going to Russia in eighty seven

...

where all of a sudden class knows happen. And all of a sudden, now there were bands playing

...

guys without shirts. And people dancing that wouldn't have happened, I guess, several years earlier.

...

So it you know, it all remains to be seen, you know, no one's a fortune teller, but I I really think if we we do what we need to do, then we take care of our own part of the world.

...

Adrian, this kind of experimentation

...

across

...

boundaries

...

is something that

...

you

...

do quite a lot of

...

I guess. So ...I mean, you know, I think it's ...I mean, for me, because I started in the nineties, and then I

...

where was some for a number of years, and we worked in a certain way,

...

you know, it was the beginning of electronic music And

...

I think there's a thing that

...

I heard that every eleven years, the music industry comes up with a new revolution. So we had our fifty five, sixty six to seven was the beginning of the long player. We revolve the sergeant criminal pet sounds.

...

Eighty eighty nine was beginning of acid has nearly electronic music, and then ninety nine what happened the ipad?

...

And, you know, that was where ...and,

...

you know, I stopped making music and then know a few years after from there, And I was like at university and when I came back to blue musical my own,

...

which was I know about ten years ago.

...

I'd always written full music, so that was a thread continued. And I some the direct I worked with previously i that with.

...

But it was a totally different thing there's was a new generation of musicians. It was the millennials

...

coming through and we even though I'm not i'm millennial. I I was working with these musicians, even ...so I've kind of

...

I think a lot of kind of way that I do things because I'm not part of the generation they're currently,

...

you know, the, you know, actually taking you know, a kind of big say right in what's culturally going on.

...

But I am I I I ...I'm kind of involved and worked with a lot of them.

...

And and I think, you know, generally, as Like get older, it might be a kind of ...I

...

think it's a bad thing. Maybe commercially,

...

but I just I'm not interested in hearing

...

something I've already heard again. This is so much music.,

...

that's i when I started working on my own it's like, wow, you know, working university in open my ears maybe some more of the

...

academic sides of music. And,

...

you know, I'm still discovering things that I'm like ...well, I've being things that are, like, thirty four years old, which it's not even some of them are even now, you know, but they're still ...and

...

If imagine on the beautiful things of the technology that you can go backwards,

...

which I Like I said before the digital technology is fundamentally, like, kind of

...

a ghost, and it's always feeding you back to what you discovered.

...

You But I think also, you can go back and you can find things that were missed or very, very peripheral.

...

And I think the young generations are definitely bringing.

...

I saying so today. I I feel that all these things that are really peripheral.

...

And that are on the edges and and some of them are historically, you know, like so twenty thirty forty years old.

...

They are collapsing. As the middle sort of collapse under the way of all the music and the content.

...

This peripheral stuff starts to kind of seep into the middle.

...

And, you know, on my in my optimistic days,

...

I'm kind of really curious.

...

As to how all those,

...

you know,

...

all those high all those all that music how it's gonna combine and and on what's gonna what what's gonna come next?

...

Ultimately, someone has to

...

pay to create it.

...

Someone has to pay to listen to it.

...

Somewhere,

...

that have to pay something, you order, therefore

...

someone

...

to be able to make

...

something resembling a living

...

to to to write it and do and to and to perform it.

...

And what we appear to be saying is

...

the squeezing of of the

...

what used to be the eighteen twenty curve. I I dare say it's probably closer to ten or the night nine ninety ten curve or even

...

Steve.

...

Relatively

...

small number of of

...

artists

...

are able to make an excellent living

...

And then there is the long tail,

...

that famous

...

long tail.

...

But then within that long tail, there are still lots of space in

...

to actually

...

figure out

...

what is the thing

...

that you have that is yours and yours alone. It's always been the case, but somehow,

...

maybe this new digital environment

...

is actually

...

in its coming form is actually

...

going to to enable people

...

people too make a living within those spaces that they

...

create for themselves. What do you think?

...

Well, I mean,

...

there's even things

...

like

...

meet hook. Have you heard of the the the at hook?

...

No. That's okay. So so meet hook is this app

...

that

...

I was actually asked to join and it's famous musicians.

...

And what you do, you make your available availability

...

on the app, and then you charge whatever you wanna to charge per minute. So then fans can talk to you

...

and you would charge them, and and it goes right to your Paypal account or whatever. So for instance, like, if I say you know, I'm available

...

blah blah blah blah blah blah for, you know, twenty minutes,

...

then if someone wants to talk to me rather than

...

talking to me, and I'm just giving up my time for free. You know, if I'm charging, I would I was charged, I think, like, two fifty a minute. You know, where people like, I think books columns was charging, like, eight seventy five a minute or something.

...

So musician would actually end up making some money, by talking And so the fans could talk to them, You know, they would spend who knows. And mean, if they go for the an hour, then you make a nice taste. You know, you it would only, like doing a lesson.

...

And it's the same thing, you know with with gold tickets now, you know, I'm the number going to see yes. We were guests,

...

and, you know, they had these gold ticket holders that spend a lot more money sometimes a thousand dollars of ticket or something, but they get to go the sound.

...

They get to meet the band right afterwards and get autograph and stuff. Because you you there were no Cds to sell anymore. All the things that you would tour to back up are kind of going go upside down though. Yeah. So now there's new apps, like, like I said, like me hook that open up, so the musicians can actually

...

make some money by talking to their fans too. And and how else would their fans do it? And, again, you know, it it is time as money. I mean, you know, it's nice if you can just give a lessons for free and give everything away for free. But if if you need to make a living because that's your profession,

...

then does these, you know, new ways, people are fighting to be able to do that. And you probably this because they don't actually have to

...

show up at a gig if if they are unable to. They can

...

they can come in from from saul or or or or Johannesburg or paulo if they wish. Right? Absolutely.

...

And I done that. I talked to people from all over the world. You know, I have I haven't updated my schedule yet for this month.

...

But, I mean, it's just ...it's really wild, all a sudden, I'll get a thing from, like, Me hook saying, okay, so and so wants to, you know, book you for blah blah blah you available at this time. Yes.

...

And then I'll talk to them just like this on the phone. You know, and then next thing, I know that money went into my account.

...

So they just ...they just wanna talk about your your your music and your creative process and your experience and whatever. Right? They can talk about anything they want. I mean, they can talk about if they they wanna learn, like, if it's like a sort of an offs lesson,

...

or if they just wanna talk about the Pat Group or if they wanna talk about me, like, my bands or anything they wanna talk about. That's so that opens up that format. It's it's brilliant.

...

That sounds like

...

a really

...

creating positive

...

development. And, you know,

...

the sort of exactly the sort of thing. That we're talking about, you know, digital opening up.

...

Adrian are you going to ...sign up meet?

...

I mean, I guess, I

...

I mean, you know, I'm I I wasn't in the pattern of Bank. I don't know how many people talk to speak i You is surprised.

...

You know,

...

lots of people, lots of people watch what's the movies and the television shows that like yeah I mean, i wrong is it for? I think, you know, I am aware lockdown down that the models, the old models are die and and actually, you know, it's the music you know amusement.

...

By

...

default our creative, and I think, you know, to actually,

...

you know, ride with the possibilities possibilities of the technologies I mean, I'm still kind of excited resistant with social media, which is the ridiculous because actually, it works

...

as a kind of bridge

...

in many ways, but

...

bridge to, you know, different

...

kind of approaches to connecting people who might in your music.

...

A bridge to different ways of earning money,

...

a bridge to just getting your music out in parts of the world that you've physically never been to, which is what's happening know the lockdown.

...

So, yeah. No. I mean, it's ...I think I am entering a phase where I realized that to

...

kind of get into the next fruitful part of my career, you know, I have to

...

kind of explore lot of these options and I am in terms of, you know,

...

i guess, the sort of music that I'm looking at doing and some of the processes that are underwear underway. But for example, the last ten years really since,

...

you know, see that that the big money spinner has been licensed and musical right music to pay now, like, you know, that is always been

...

one of the things that I've always done right and so music recently., it's like the boxer set Tv show. On Amazon or

...

Netflix.

...

And

...

but now, that world is changing. You know? So a lot of the people that can't tour

...

have all,

...

you know, rightly gone okay. So I wanna write music to picture too. I think I can do that.

...

So suddenly

...

that world, which was

...

you know, it wasn't lacking in competition. It's suddenly a lot more people

...

coming through into that. Sometimes sounds like the time roughly twenty years ago, when I was in the photography business,

...

and I happened to have lots of friends who regular a national geographic

...

shooters, and

...

then

...

the bottom fell out of the the business and the the the right situation changed.

...

Dramatically for the worst.

...

And all of a sudden,

...

I had

...

several of my my

...

accomplished national geographic photographers

...

realizing, actually, I can use these reporting skills

...

to create

...

wedding packages for people.

...

And it worked. They create they shot, you know, people's weddings in the sort of way that people's weddings should have been shot, you know, from from Get go because it was spontaneous

...

exciting and interesting, and they were looking for those special

...

moments and they were able to find those special moments as opposed to your strengths. You know, straight up and down wedding photographer

...

who says stand there. I'll take a picture.

...

And then, of course, what happen

...

as more of the bottom fell out of more of the business, more people

...

cross the line from further journalism

...

to quote unquote

...

style wedding,

...

photography, and then that got

...

that space got crowded.

...

So I guess it's all wheels within wheels. Right?

...

Yeah. I think. And it's also partly the way that ...yeah.

...

I mean, it it's just the way that people have to follow over the money mean, I think one of things that has changed probably even more so for paul is that, like,

...

you know, the cost of everything

...

basically pushes musicians to

...

follow the money, whereas there was a point where, you know, Every read totally report that, you know,

...

you know just sustain the career music, you have to have that love of the thing that you do. And,

...

you know, I think

...

following the money all the time can ...if

...

you're trying to be creative and do that. It can get a very confused mess. So I think having a clear idea of that

...

is a really good

...

rather that I've always, you know, tried to use. But I mean, I think ...yeah,

...

You know, it costs so much now. I mean, the space ...I mean,

...

talking about time, you know, post doesn't that time and how time is important And musicians time should be as valuable.

...

Why isn't it this time that's available than the lawyer. I mean, you know, I know there's reasons, economic reasons in terms of contracts and bad it really. But, I mean,

...

you know, musicians and under eigenvalues that find quite a while, and they spend years

...

developing these skills.

...

I remember talking to a violin and

...

he was saying hey sometimes when he works with a film composer,

...

the film composer and knows so much less about his instrument than he does. And it's he kind of used the analogy of

...

it's like, you know, being a doctor

...

and then nurse

...

telling you what to do, You know, and not that nurses shouldn't tell doctors what to do. I'm not saying that it's just he making the point worse the the the patience telling the doctor. Yeah. But they should have unique the ties I the got what to do.

...

So, you know, I think time and money have become really rational,

...

you know, by the economic system. So that means that

...

musicians have to jump and move fast to try and kind of navigate this very qualified landscape.

...

And I think ...yeah.

...

I mean, the the this there's

...

many ...you know, the ...no one knows what what is ahead, but I think,

...

in a way, slowing down, that process is one technique. I don't know how easy that's gonna be. So

...

if if resistance have more time and space again, and I'm trying to work on, you know, maybe something that ...and ...you know, we talked about this around for a few weeks ago about,

...

you know, freeing up space and cities for musicians. And

...

I think that could be a you know, that could be a positive step back, you know, to like.

...

I mean, you know, like ...you know, the the the magical part of you know, it wasn't matter probably live there, but New York in the seventies and it was bankrupt, and there was a lot of industrial space that was empty in downtown and

...

And, you know, obviously, from that came, like,

...

you know, the last fifty years of most revolutionary,

...

you know, art in you know, visual

...

music,

...

you name it. And

...

I think we need ...we

...

need

...

something,

...

you know, they give that ability again, which I think is most placed and time. Is that sort of thing happening in Chicago detroit.

...

Well,

...

you mean, as far as

...

office reclaiming spaces.

...

Yeah. Sure. I mean, you know the whole loss seen

...

that's that's happened.

...

It it seems like, you know, most of the clubs

...

during this Covid thing it it both of them have survived.

...

I mean, they're starting to have gigs again.

...

So and, obviously, a lot of people have lost a lot of money because they've lost a whole year worth of of work

...

but it it seems like we might get through this okay and people are hungry to hear music again. You know? That's the thing. It's like, you know, so clubs are are doing well already, You know, and they have capacity Now they're gonna be full capacity again. Because most people have been vaccinated here, which is really exciting.

...

And,

...

you know, the musicians had, like, a whole year to be able to practice because they had nothing else to do. You know? So a lot of them, you know,

...

I kept up my chops, you know, even though I he guy done was in March of, you know, twenty twenty. And

...

but also, you know, your life experiences too, sometimes that's, you know, like, if you have life experiences, you wanna play those life experiences

...

as opposed to just play technical,

...

you know,

...

showing off and gymnastics. You don't wanna do that. You wanna have some feelings and something to say behind the notes

...

So that ...I I think it's gonna be okay. I think we'll get through this. And I think the audience will will like live music again, you know, which well, we'll see. You can only hope.

...

And I think that is ...where

...

we should leave it because

...

Here, we could talk all night. That is to say if I could indulge

...

your your grace and and effort

...

But what we want.

...

Thank you, gentlemen, it has been a real pleasure,

...

and

...

I'm hoping that

...

once the technology

...

settles down, and we actually up and running,

...

properly with with Fireside.

...

Paul, I'll be able to drag you in again for another conversation this time without

...

the teething

...

problems is the the little technical nickels we had. No problem.

...

That is my pleasure. I mean, and, you know, every time there's a problem you learn from it by, you know, coming up the solution. And also, adrian, we should hook up too, at least, you know, I'd love to talk.

...

Yeah. Know it's nice to meet you in this kind of slightly

...

way, but absolutely,

...

my ...my work here is done

...

That's the thing Scene, like, everything

...

can be positive. It's just ...it's just you just have to kinda get through it. Go with it, go with it to Jam away. Yeah. Paul, Adrian, many thanks thank you to

...

listeners who have patiently stayed with us.

...

My name's Ralph. This has been the creative farm, and we'll be back again next Monday

...

same time. And, of course,

...

this recording will be published

...

on the open web

...

as soon as it is

...

available made available to me from the Good folk at fireside. Thank you. And good night. Okay. Bye. Thank you. Night.

Fortune Cookie