The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

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Transcript

...

And

...

you

...

your.

...

Feel good

...

Good afternoon good morning.

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And good evening to

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Australia. If you're listening.

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We use the

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much ...you

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overused and abused term

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Renaissance man or woman

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to describe someone who works across multiple boundaries and

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drags new ways of doing things into.

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Old

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established

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realms

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Today on the

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Go studio, it's my pleasure to talk to an artist writer,

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producer maker of films and theatrical performances and a

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commentator

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on the role of art and creativity.

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In today's business in society who actually fits that description

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working at the intersection as as she does of the

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physical and the digital.

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She has created some memorable performances in multiple geographies.

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And spoken at the un about why we

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the collective we need to pay

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a lot more respected creativity.

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This

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as the Global studio, my name is Ralph Helm,

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and my guest

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is the reference ball of creative energy

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known as

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Cycles.

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And welcome to.

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You need to unmute yourself.

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Thank you, ralph.

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Where do we go from that introduction?

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It's

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absolute pleasure to to be talking to you.

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Where do we go? Well, you say you're in pursuit. I quote your pursuit of a theater that does not exist in narratives

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that address new mythology. So I guess, we'll be wondering down that path

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Seems to me you are the archetype shaped chase shift.

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The magical tricks, just how much

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of a shape shifted as a artist has to be today, or

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how much of a shape shapes shifter is an artist able to be today.

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You know, I think we're all shape shifters.

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And

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the the difference is

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as an artist, you are given full permission

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to shape shifts,

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and I think it then it becomes

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more so about

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the questions

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you're asking

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yourself and

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and the realms that you want to explore and the different modalities

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that

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you want to dive in to

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just

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to find the answer to that question that does not even exist yet.

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And from that,

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comes the shape shifting,

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I believe.

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So we did I don't think it's a conscious calculated.

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I'm going to shakespeare shaped now.

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And it just ...it's it's part. It's it's just on an organic process that happens as part of this

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quest and this journey for

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for whatever you're seeking.

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In the pathologist of many tribal people in fact, most

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travel people if we think about it, the the figure of the shapes shift is important

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from the perspective of making sense

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of many phenomena, observable by the people in the real world.

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Around culture, the so called Western,

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whatever that means, culture.

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Is far from having quite the same intricate web of

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relationships

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between people objects in nature.

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But we have seen some. We've had some

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contemporary shapes shifters.

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Bobby Prince Meryl Street,

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my thompson until this went and, you know,

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these people have

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come racing across our horizon.

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Changing their shape as they go. But to what degree

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can they shakespeare shift spirit be adequately represented

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with them within the the realm of popular culture.

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If we if we consider that the actors and singers and what have you become

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to a greater or lesser degree products

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of the entertainment industry?

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Well, this is completely unfair because I feel like you have thought deeply of all these incredible questions. Can you ...can you

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Can you we gonna we're gonna hit balls. And we'll about it, and We'll come back to you in fifteen minutes.

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Okay no. That it doesn't work like that. This is

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yeah that's we need to dance it with that answer. I think he could keep water you immediately it.

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You know? Okay, when I think of shape shifting, I think of the suspension of disbelief, I think of this ability to just again, use different modalities to to dive in have

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If

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There is so many layers.

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Okay.

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Let's start on unpacking them. Yes. Okay.

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Hit me from the top.

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The you your talk ...you talk about the permission. I mean,

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our permission can be taken a

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assumed or it can be given and artist ...really, are not in the business of

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waiting for someone to give the permission. That's kind of where it starts. Doesn't it? That's right. And I think that's the

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the role by my default. It's interesting. I think the the role have an artist and what we expect artist to be I like,

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artists are shielded

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and protected and

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and are given permission naturally by default be because of that role, but that will also

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sort of

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casting cast

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or or

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create the folds

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this false perception. Right? But artists are not to be taken necessarily serious or it it is at the end of the day just entertainment and this is not. There is no one more serious than the fool.

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Correct.

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Completely agree. Yes.

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But but so what's interesting is

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the the role of an artist by default is giving you permission to do things that are slightly

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or

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radically out of the ordinary.

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Right? And we, I think we all have that capacity, but we don't all have

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or are given that

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that level of of permission and we're all at the end of the day it's whole theater. It seems that all of us are

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have adopted

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a role in our playing that role, and oftentimes those roles are are stock characters. Right? It's like not players. Right? Yes. Someone said that about five hundred years.

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Yes.

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Keep going. Keep going because we're ...we're we're we're we're wondering down on interesting path here.

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Well, I just

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I think that permission is is so important. And so if you're not given

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there's a there's a liberation that comes from it, and then and that's from that that

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that permission to play to, like, four two two to anxious to

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look at life and different perspectives to become another right

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to

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to explore movements Because, again, we're talking about different modalities when we talk about, I think the arts, some people are thinking that visual art some people what I think you know you know, death or or music or singing. And I I'm looking at it from ...and I think that's the beauty of the performing art. And in in many ways they

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and encompass

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all these different hard forms

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to tell

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a story and just just

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to take us somewhere. But

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there's also a very interesting

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factor in all, such is that that's

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the suspension of their beliefs. And I think we're we tend to take

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ourselves very seriously, and I catch myself.

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Doing that as well. Right? Where it's like oh my god. What the the the situation has become way to reel and items. I become very in serious about it. And that's

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when we understand everything is theater, the world of estate and we are very polite.

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Sanders a there's a level of z

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where you

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when you're

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allowed to

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think

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things differently look at things differently,

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where the building I'm staring at now might be able to just

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transform or again or maybe the ability is now unwilling. And and it's ...I think it's from that process from that level of suspension

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that

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you're suddenly in a in a very

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beautiful

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level.

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Where i he can become anything and anyone can ...you know? And then this is when you start to shape and mold and craft and play and

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and sequence things and any and experiments.

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So you have these wheels within wheels we're not serious and everything is deadly serious, but it's not really serious and it's incredibly serious.

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It's.

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Isn't it?

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Yes. Do it. Jennifer can me format it? From ...well,.

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I ...I think we're doing it right now. What does surprised me, and the continues to surprise me.

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And

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I've been around for a while,

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But

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somehow,

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this ...that's fair ease with which people

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give up their agency

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there

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seriousness playful

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that liberty and. We don't get that word very often liberty. I love that word.

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Which is actually a very serious word.

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Because you can sell something likely you still actually

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consider it from a perspective of respect, I think, rather than disregard.

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People people give up this agency and their ability

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to think

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in that way.

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Not at least, as soon as another another shiny drink it appears. Is there a cure for this?

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Do we get people

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so there's serious back to the serious serious space.

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I think ...so

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still ...I have a problem with people give up on this and i'm talking about people as they're they're external from us because I think we're part of we are looking people we're do very

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I find myself and you probably find yourself in those situations. Where like,

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Right. There's just a level of awareness or perhaps

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make ...there's

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expert tools in the total toolbox that are able to retrieve that at even points. And I think this is what's happens is I don't think people are have given not

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play or have ...that

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it's out of the roles that's

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that we've agreed to play as part of society

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Right?

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To teach society working and organize organized and always these

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out of these

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the demand of these roles has sort of removed

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the playful,

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the exploration explanation of the subway it's very

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function is, you know, driven.

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Where do we find value what this?

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Because

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I think

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this kind of context actually has more to do with with looking for value whatever

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form that value may,

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take, but when do we find value in

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this serious serious

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clay

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in order for

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people the collective people that that is us

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to realize that, you know, there there are different types

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or value and there are different types of currencies, and I'm not talking about dog.

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Thank goodness.

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How do we assign? Or, how do you reassign value to this?

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I don't know

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how to reassign value. That sounds so again transactional.

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You know, if ...I

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i think we ...we

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have to see it

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I I

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there's a part of me that thinks well we need to. We need to give our ourselves permission. But then if you're not if you're not used to that,

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two guys. ...it's almost ...it's it's it's just too hard.

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But so when when does it start?

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When do we actually begin to give up give that agency?

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By by taking ourselves to seriously by taking your goals as we adulthood and side to seriously.

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And

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yes. I I I don't know if I have the answer guys for question

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Well, we can we can keep ...we can keep digging. We can keep.

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You know?

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So

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perhaps another angle

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of trying to to figure figure this out is

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the the question of artistic rebellion,

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which has been around, of course,

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for a while,

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How much rebellion

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and this is a bit of a paradox the way I said

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how much rebellion must an artist introduce?

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Actually induce

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in order

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to ensure that

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coherence and stability

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long term are the governing principles of of our society because

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there are these

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conflicting dynamics. Right? There is the

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drive towards order and stability.

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And

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then on the other hand, we have natural

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entropy and and chaos,

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and we can't escape that.

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So as a bridge,

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how can an artist

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introduce enough rebellion

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to

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insurance stability.

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By twenty exactly

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by doing exactly that. I think arts

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is an act of

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rebellion.

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I mean, I I I don't ...And

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perhaps this is very subjective again. I'm only one person answering your questions or thinking through or attempting to think through your questions, which are

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beautiful,

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by the way. But I I ...the the the ...what

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propel you to create

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and to create through different modalities because, yes, Of course, there's an art and conversation. There's an art.

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There's a notch two with everything, and that's

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okay. We can tackle that

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perhaps later, but but if we're looking at ours from

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from

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the the practices

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and the processes that we that are that we recognize very clearly then

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you've got ...you ...there's Scott to be because this inputs that is feeling that you need to

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you need to express this thing, and it's not going to be in in a normal

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day day, transactional language, it's going to be through another medium because the the i certain point words

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have sort of reached their capacity

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Well, some sometimes course you can argue that, you know,

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of course, books and plays and etcetera. But I think my by default, my nature art is an absolute rebellion,

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and it's what balances

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in a way.

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It's what keeps us and check. It's what provides us to

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to question

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the status quo.

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And search for the the middle way, I guess, right between chaos and

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too much order.

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Would that be a

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an apt way of putting it?

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Yes.

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It's an apt way of putting it.

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Let's

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let's dig into an area,

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which is

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related to that last

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last

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idea.

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And

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and it is perhaps

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somewhat larger.

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And maybe does having know an entirely

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discrete and

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individual conversation, but but we may have that later.

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But

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if we look at the relationship

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of art

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and commerce,

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through the ages and the relationship of art and combos

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today

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wouldn't be too simplistic.

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To argue that the two are

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essentially incompatible, and

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there will always always be

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in in a in a par struggle.

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Or is that wrong white the wrong way of looking at it altogether?

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I think

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I think that's become cliche.

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And and so therefore, I question it I I I believe there can be extraordinary

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or of arts that could be wonderfully commercial.

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And for some reason what ...and and I think the reason why we've arrived, I guess cliche is because

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perhaps the people

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in charge the the producers, the manager is the promoter,

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link the the the business

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as

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of

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the arts making world are not artists themselves. And so they are perhaps

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diminishing

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or

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or softening.

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Right? The the the the artistic product

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because they think it will be more

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acceptable to

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to to people.

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Right? And I Think that's a ...that's a ...that's a wrong assumption.

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And so no. I I I don't think that's true, I think. And I think that needs to change and perhaps when it changes, there will be more regard more appreciation

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or deeper appreciation

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for arts

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and how might that manifest itself?

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What do you mean

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that deeper appreciation?

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Do you have an idea of what that might actually look like? Or is it

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too to tell? It's just it's intended it's. I mean, this is a deeply personal and so subjected.

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Right reaction.

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I I mean, by the word needs to be extraordinary or you know, first and foremost, and then we we'll we'll touch do it and move you in different ways as an individual until as the recipient

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of that

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of that's

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work.

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What actually ...sorry.

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Going. Sorry. Wrong. I was gonna say others. You know, I I think ...and

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I don't have examples for this

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it'd be interesting to to research and then and and look get deeper

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to look at, you know, who are the artists who are in charge of the business making of the arts. Right?

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Because we might see different outcomes

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and more like more risk taking, bolder,

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art.

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This has always been the the conversation between the the artists and the producer. Right?

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The producer says, give me something extraordinary to sell, and the artist creates it and the producer says no that's too much. Right. Just prepare it down a bit..

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And that's not fair to the rest. Right? That's not fair to the audience to a you were doing.

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This is assuming that the audience will will actually not not get it. Right? That's right. And it's how how insulting I think.

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I was going to say that

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there should be disclaimer. Or should have been a disclaimer the year.

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The start of the program because within

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the obama program

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and working with,

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partners at

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In in the Us.

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We are actually working with Natasha and other

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artists

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and we're interested in having companies and organizations invite

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artists

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into the living corporate tissue

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through a program of residency to become catalysts

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sparks of illumination, if you will

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for these companies

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in their search for ways to grow the imagination quote

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of their people,

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and these things are not exactly new, many such experiments in the past have demonstrated.

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This works.

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Let's maybe take a little detour and talk about

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those types of engagements

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as a an interesting way

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for artists to prove to the world

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that they're worth

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is more than just beautiful stuff on the walls or incredible things on the stage.

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That that that they're worth

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as living breathing humans with brains

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actually has a consulting value

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Let's pick up on that subject.

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Okay.

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How

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How do you think

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the corporate world

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will respond to this?

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In this day and age because they've the the corporate world has had

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now in in a twelve, fourteen, sixteen months of

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intense pressure

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and

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realization that actually things ain't what they used to be,

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and they need to start thinking differently really

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differently.

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And to learn to think differently, you have to actually

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get teachers who do that on a daily basis and that, of course,

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is

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the artistic world.

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Do you think that's given

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current circumstances and the development of Covid and everything that's gone along with it.

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Do you think that the acceptance of that fact is going to be somewhat?

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Greater than it had.

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I will hope so and I think.

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Okay. I'm sorry. I I I tell go issues. Can you still?

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Yes. Just fine. We've come back. Did you hear did you hear the phone ring?

...

No.

...

Okay.

...

You might let might like to put it on do not disturb.

...

The beauty of doing these interviews on people's iphones is that occasionally, they these things do happen.

...

So coming back to the

...

the question at hand,

...

given the delay of the land and the changed.

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If you will, strategic

...

landscape,

...

do you think

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the corporate world is likely to be more accepting of

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the artist's way of thinking.

...

No.

...

The phone is being

...

separate.

...

Let's just give it a minute.

...

It is certainly convenient to do these interviews on and I found about it. It doesn't always

...

work out as as expected.

...

And thank you for the waves and the little harsh people this is most supportive.

...

It is a new environment and we're all just

...

will just trying to figure this out as we go.

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I think we may have lost natasha. While Natasha is

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finding her way back to

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the Wifi router,

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maybe we should drag a couple of humans

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on stage and see

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what will you find people would like to

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throw into the part of the conversation?

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Patrick, Erica,

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but first, Stephanie, anyone

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would love to to have you come up and

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throw us some curly questions at us.

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Think that thought may be back.

...

Yes.

...

Oh, how good is that?

...

The invitation to everybody else still stands incidentally. So please just wave

...

in my journal direction and we'll drag you on stage.

...

Now then

...

back to the subject.

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The corporate

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world and its relationship with artists cannot be broadened

...

can it be made into something other than

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merely the you know, provision of services or sponsorship of that sort of thing?

...

And that was yes. I ...yes. Absolutely. And

...

the first example that comes to mind is is Google.

...

Right? And just sort of

...

from

...

the playful

...

they've been able to incorporate in just the the the setting

...

of their offices and and spaces and and and the

...

the gay areas and then the ......you

...

know ...but

...

also the programs that they have

...

that's

...

and the workshops

...

that they host at times. So I I think

...

if it's ...if Google is understanding that there is great power in in

...

in having artists and people coming from the from a creative side, host workshops to sort of liberated to free you

...

and enable you to

...

to thing differently. That that is very yeah.

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That that gives me hope.

...

That's other other organizations might may catch on. Yeah. Because I mean, Google is the the iconic,

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you know, quote unquote creative workspace whatever that may mean.

...

And

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I don't know about you, but I've done enough of these

...

unfortunate creative thinking workshops were,

...

including actually a couple of at Google if I remember correctly,

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where, you know, company ask

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someone to come in and

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sprinkle magic bust of creativity.

...

And the workshop is great, and everybody has a great right time, and

...

then they they know this creative consultant leaves,

...

and I we later everybody's forgotten what they were doing. That remember that it was cool, but somehow, they don't

...

they don't manage to

...

incorporate the practices in the daily work. That's right. It's extract.

...

Started of ...I think that's that depends on

...

on the mission and the output of that organization itself.

...

Right?

...

Unless

...

unless the product

...

and

...

is

...

unless the organization's mission is centered

...

around

...

the the creative

...

factor.

...

And ...right ...I I would imagine,

...

makes like,

...

an extension like Google x

...

Right?

...

To ...I think I would love to be a fly

...

in in the wall or and and and see how they do those their they're brainstorming

...

sessions, which seems to me like they would have to

...

use practices and and

...

and process similar to

...

to that of an artist

...

to arrive

...

...I'm sure They do about the the thing, of course, is that many companies may

...

aspire to

...

become Google x or having a Google x within their organization

...

But somehow they

...

get stuck in the

...

the maya of

...

of fear and in indecisive,

...

So can artists actually

...

help them

...

move past that

...

that stage?

...

Have you been able to

...

create spaces for

...

people in companies where, actually, it's it's safe.

...

To have new ideas

...

radically new ideas.

...

Oh, continue continue you I don't I feel like your question was not entirely finished.

...

Well, these are this is ...yes it's just a this is just a stream of consciousness.

...

I mean, I can ...you know, I have I have this this unfortunate reflection That take a breath and I can speak for three hours without taking another breath

...

which is ...which is ...which is a bit of a problem at times, not to me, but to those listening.

...

Now, but it seems to me that in order for ...the gift of the artists to be able to be received. The artist needs to create conditions.

...

Conducive after to the receiving of the gift.

...

Otherwise, it won't be recognized as a gift.

...

Sure. But I think we're also making too much of it.

...

Are we overthinking it? I think we're over overthinking it.

...

Right. I I think

...

I like ...so

...

early this year, I I realized, like, doing the pandemic, I had been so

...

isolated,

...

and it's it's it's just been a very solitary process, which is not unusual because

...

I I I do seek those moments in order to to create

...

and think

...

But out of necessity,

...

I I realized I needed an outlets, which I hadn't I hadn't had for a year plus.

...

And signed up to take those courses

...

held by the idiot

...

workshop,

...

which is with sounds

...

intriguing. It's

...

it's is

...

amazing.

...

It has been the most liberating experience

...

of my knife almost ...not

...

really. That's ...I I might exaggerating, but it's it's been ...it's been really

...

incredible.

...

And

...

it's ...you know, workshops every once a week, two hours a two hours

...

a day

...

and

...

and it just cute

...

zoom, which I I think a lot of people are hesitant

...

to to explore that plastic or more have not had a good

...

experience

...

with any sort of

...

artistic

...

forms of express and

...

and video conference, but it's it's been just

...

so, again, the word decorating comes to mind and having ...and being held accountable and And have and being tools to just, like, you know, ding given

...

rules and and exercises.

...

And sometimes you feel absolutely terrified. Like, you don't know what you're going to do, but just dive into. And you just ...you just go over for it.

...

There's something

...

just really wonderful.. And I think that's at the end, it's it just about that. It's bringing those artists and those different processes. And every artists will have a difference,

...

a different process different

...

exercises different

...

they're a different play

...

and then doing this consistently enough where it's not just a one off where it's not just a sprinkle. What did you call it ralph sprinkles on?

...

Magic dust yes. Magic just.

...

But there is a consistency and and there is a ...there's a deepening

...

practice where suddenly

...

than the the participants,

...

can

...

can start to infuse

...

this and and her or his work

...

and

...

we have of thinking through

...

This is the Bar global studio.

...

My name is ralph I'm talking to

...

Natasha.

...

Look her up on the web..

...

As if I need to spill it dot com,

...

you will be fl

...

by

...

what she's managed to do.

...

In something like half of my lifetime.

...

Humble.

...

That word that word, you ...you mentioned just a second to ago, consistency that is

...

the the main

...

main idea because, of course, artistic practice is all about consistency contrary to what

...

you know,

...

sexy legends might might

...

try try to make us believed.

...

It's not people sitting in the, you know, every towers and and contemplating

...

emptiness,

...

and then there's a flash of brilliant. And and, you know, the chap ceiling just happens all of its own position.

...

It's about consistency,

...

and this consistency say something that is sometimes

...

misunderstood in the corporate world.

...

It's a the consistency of

...

execution

...

to the exclusion.

...

Of the consistency of conception, but they are artistic practice is both, isn't it?

...

I didn't understand the the to the exclusion of no. With technical issues.

...

Consistency of not just execution, but consistency in

...

creation as well in parallel to the execution.

...

Well, they they come together. I don't think you can separate them.

...

Well, the corporate corporate world tries to do it.

...

I don't know enough about the corporate world.

...

Erica welcome.

...

What would you like to? What would you like to throw into the pot today?

...

Well, I was just ...I

...

I was tasting something up when you invited me to the stage.

...

When I was

...

when you were talking there about,

...

sometimes

...

you have to set scene

...

for the message to be accepted.

...

I I think you're ...I think you're very much on to something there. I I I I I feel jealous of Natasha that she hasn't experienced that yet.

...

But because I do, I think there's times,

...

especially in the corporate world where, you know, somebody who's forward thinking within an organized might invite you

...

as a as a creative to come and give a talk on something

...

that's not ready for.

...

And then

...

how often has that happened? More than once.

...

I ...yeah.

...

Yeah. That's that's

...

full of times. Yes. Yeah. That's insane. Right? Come come and and inspire our people yeah. Gladly. So you come and inspire their people and the people are in inspired, and then you leave, and they are no longer inspired,

...

which is not a reflection on on the people with certain reflection on on the company culture. Right?

...

Yeah. Or sometimes

...

exactly. And and and at times where they're just ...they're just not ready for for those ideas because they've they've been told done in a certain way and

...

and i a fire

...

set

...

that

...

change that

...

that provoke a different way of thinking of things that potentially also,

...

...you

...

know, in some people's mind

...

sparks sparks more water.

...

Yes. This idea that, oh my god. I'm going to have to actually work at this creativity thing.

...

The horror.

...

But that guy what your Rebecca yes.

...

Erica.

...

I must cut.

...

You're good. I think I cut out there did I cut out there? You did ...Oh,

...

Hey I ...because I think that the

...

Because at the end, the the bringing of the artist, the bringing of

...

the intention

...

was was super through. Right? It again, we're talking about the same thing How would you set the stage?

...

Well, so so it's that's an interesting one. I mean, often when when I found myself in that situation,

...

I

...

it

...

it depends on on where you're at. I know, like, you know, if it's said up then, that you're at.

...

I I think it's

...

it's

...

advantageous just to

...

invite the

...

artists to partake in the event to get to know the people at some sort of social gathering

...

before their actual talk because

...

it that allows that person to kind of

...

sort of gain an and understanding of of what the ...what the culture

...

really is within the company,

...

and

...

and allows them to kind of tailor tailor their language

...

or

...

where

...

where there could be

...

where there ...where there could be areas of of fear of

...

misunderstanding.

...

And

...

and where you can can shine a spotlight to on on on what the value is

...

behind doing something that that's different that might look bit more work or that might

...

might

...

might be something that

...

that that that they're nervous of trying to start with. You can't deliver the payload until you you know, you've built the bridge. Right?

...

Yeah.

...

Yeah. Yeah. And often, like, it's that ...it's that social piece that ...I mean, sometimes we we under value that. But it's that social piece that that really

...

allows for ...for

...

well, it creates us ...creates a safety that right. It creates the safety network folks for for the speaker,

...

but it also creates the safety net

...

for

...

for the people in the room because they now have the human connection with that person.

...

There they're they're not just

...

you know, sort of an entity that is is totally separate from from them.

...

It are you

...

when you're bringing this example, are we are we thinking of of an artist that just came one time and gave a talk spoke to instead of or or or are you ...was

...

there ever and any where the the artist stayed for a longer period of time

...

and all workshops.

...

Yeah. Where I'm where I'm instead of speaking is is that that first time before there's before it's catalyzed into

...

to to you know, to an event because usually, when there's a series,

...

those those social

...

components are are are built in place,

...

so that ...so that the the artist in the community can get to know one another, but it's also what you're talking about to with

...

with getting companies to come of have that artist and residence that they're working with or where they're doing a series for a long time.

...

It's ...you're

...

you're completely hitting on, like, I ...from for me,

...

when I sort of realized, okay, this is great to give talks and they inspire people, but but then how many people actually do anything with that and how many people, like, you know, they they often don't have the

...

the tools from just one talk to sort of put something into action.

...

So so my first approach at kind of taking on that piece was to start pitching universities and colleges with

...

with some of those those

...

ideas, but then I also started to recognize that that's not a solution unto itself because

...

because there's there's always

...

...difficulties

...

in in accessing colleges and the universities, especially

...

you know, for people that are in different countries.

...

And

...

so I've kind of been

...

taking this on through creating, you know, sort of my own sort of online teaching space for this.

...

And we're where we

...

potentially work with companies to to to do this sort of thing and we can tailor courses for them.

...

But

...

But you've also gotta have companies too that that sort of see the value in that and and and our our sparks and are interested in doing that in the place. And so i I I didn't realize that was part of what you were doing with with soma global

...

race, but I think that's that's brilliant that

...

that that that's one of the initiatives that

...

that you're setting out there to do because because

...

for change to happen,

...

you need time, and you also need,

...

you know,

...

people people need the help with, like, you know, having somebody to support them and coach them and to, you know, to troubleshoot as as they ...as

...

they try something new

...

I like bread.

...

I I own up

...

I'll I'll admit.

...

And

...

it was gonna they can because I always wanted to to buy red and I never thought I'd I'd get good at didn't me like techniques me six months.

...

And, of course, and the

...

the

...

pandemic happened,

...

and it did take take me six months, and I did get good.

...

So I use

...

bread making

...

metaphors and parallels.

...

Forgive me if you ...if you will,

...

artists

...

in these organizations. I see them as leveling,

...

and it is absolutely correct that you have to give

...

the the process of of of change

...

enough time for the leveling to work because bread is nothing

...

nothing more than

...

flower,

...

salt and time.

...

Right? These are the

...

the four ingredients

...

But in this in in the world where everything needs to be

...

fast where Roi has to be immediate,

...

This is an all altogether a different direction

...

in terms of

...

strategic outlook, and

...

aren't

...

concerned that

...

many, many companies will go to the wall

...

in this

...

Bu world. This crazy uncertain

...

volatile,

...

etcetera

...

world that we we know inhabit.

...

Not because the people who need those companies are asked stupid or evil because they simply do not realize

...

that

...

the investment of time

...

is necessary in order for them to have a chance of survival long term,

...

where do you think artists might

...

find a point of

...

you know, the first point of entry, you know, what sort of conversations

...

might

...

people

...

start with the world of business.

...

To encourage people who run

...

corporations to actually look at time

...

from a different perspective.

...

I

...

I don't think it's going to be a conversation.

...

And I don't think it's going to happen in a in a linear and literal

...

way. I I ...it needs to start from the from I believe

...

from an experiential

...

perspective from the playful perspective.

...

Because then, it just becomes like,

...

like, something that people need to do Right? And and it's not. It doesn't. And I think this is why,

...

you know,

...

having to talk about art is also so complicated.

...

Like, under do it. So. Well, yes. Yes. Ralph. And and you are master at. I'm like in awe.

...

But at the end of the day, artists do do hard to make art and create because they don't wanna talk because it's it's, again, it's this ...it's this way in which we can connect because they talk

...

different different

...

Correct.

...

And and so I don't ...I I think that

...

this

...

synergy what that we're talking about.

...

And this

...

this this cultural change in organization is

...

and the implants

...

of of of artists and their processes

...

because that's really, I think what we're talking about we're not talking about, you know, turning Google into a a a

...

a a symphony

...

orchestra.

...

About it. Quite quite quite wonderful to.

...

Right? So I I do ...that

...

I I really believe it will ...it cannot start with a conversation or even gonna talk

...

you know, I think it will ...it needs to be an experience. And needs you just need to immerse yourself in this without realizing that you're doing it. And that is where you will as an individual

...

that may not be used to that. I think you will naturally. It will naturally resonate it things will naturally align through this consistency. Right? I I don't also don't think it's will be one off, but and and things will click

...

But it I don't I don't think it's like opening this book or, like, a pencil, and we're gonna do this and Now let do you know It's like, oh, hell no. No

...

it has,

...

amazing them into submission. Right?

...

Oh, god. I don't like the word submission at all, but I like the word amazing them.

...

That is beautiful.

...

Well, one of the things that that continued just to struggle with is this image,

...

which is somehow

...

become an an unfortunate archetype, which is like rewarding in it in in the itself.

...

At this image of the starving artist,

...

that is so interesting in in popular culture,

...

and I have a problem with the idea that artists should starve in order to produce art.

...

Well, of course, it is clear that some great art has been introduced by hostage to starve,

...

which only goes to show that

...

more than anything that that artists will produce art whether or not they have had enough to eat.

...

And and then

...

some really rather well artists have produced some astounding

...

great art,

...

which if anything goes to show,

...

that we have it altogether

...

us backwards when it comes to the relationship of. And and and and sad sweaty.

...

And I think this is this is

...

where a lot of the the the problem of the appreciation of the possible

...

possible contribution of artists,

...

the business

...

comes from. Because

...

somehow, deep down people think that artists artists are these weird criticism who, you know, subside them

...

love drugs and and, you know,

...

whatever else.

...

And, of course, it's not like that. But, you know, where

...

Where do we start to change that? How

...

can individual artists

...

use and this is, I think, the key

...

the key to what we've been talking about how can individual artist to use their own powers to amaze

...

to spanish and to

...

eliminate

...

to get that conversation started where people realize actually,

...

this is a human I want to talk to. And not as a fan.

...

Yeah. It's not like me at a concert going. My god are amazing.

...

But

...

me sitting down with Having a cup coffee on maybe in a his case, a glass of been,

...

and actually, considering what

...

what you know, what we might be able to do together.

...

Because, all of a sudden,

...

the relationship of

...

the consumer and the producer has been shifted into one

...

of the of a, you know, relationship of one human to another.

...

Artist using their own power to amaze

...

Is that is that the key is that the skeleton key to this opening this relationship?

...

So many different

...

provocation this year.

...

One one well, the first one was ...I don't ...when in as I was here in your talk, I was thinking,

...

I don't know if I necessarily want to connect with all artists on human level. Right? There's ...there's ...there's ...sometimes

...

I just want to appreciate

...

the art for the art tonight.

...

I think there's shape. Like, we need to define in shades of the the why or identify the the why and then not all artists.

...

You know, some artists are are are incredible and magnificent that yes amazing, but not all have the capability of

...

transcending

...

and sharing a their knowledge or processes.

...

I I know a lot of brilliant people who have no idea how they're doing what they're doing. They're just doing it because they've done it for so long. Right? Again, that that consistency.

...

And they hadn't they haven't qualified

...

their

...

their language, their their models they're, you know ...just

...

...and then the you bring the?

...

The starving artist, which is a cliche, which it go home ...I I I tend to walk away from that cliche now because I think we have so much ...there's

...

there is so much available at our disposal as artists to sort of

...

that we didn't have, even

...

twenty years ago

...

to be able to survive, even thrive

...

and promote ourselves share our material often, you know, a lot of those

...

for free ...and

...

however, I don't I don't think

...

I don't think there's enough support.

...

For the aisle requests.

...

You know, it's interesting and and doing this

...

pandemic, obviously, everything was put to to a halt,

...

as far as

...

and you anyone and the live entertainment and everybody else

...

And out of i that's ...well, what was interesting was that it was a hyper productive period for me because the had to be so

...

sewing immense. Right? So much more than what I normally would do because then there was a lot of,

...

you know,

...

proposals and and and

...

and grunt writing

...

and and testing you things and approaching this and out of that out of that process. I became far

...

much more familiar with the grants

...

with red writing.

...

Which is ...which is app in and of itself, which is enough Yes. Yes. And I what what

...

what

...

I became cognizant

...

is that even in the ...even the questions

...

of of

...

even the questions other your friends are

...

they're are forcing you to be disgusting,

...

and the the people who are dropping those questions might not be from an artistic they It's almost like they are already creating this. What do you call? You got bread to you I. You must know this thing.

...

What do you call this device in which you you pour in the cookie dough and then you put it in the in the oven.

...

It would please i.

...

It well it a well it's a ten.

...

But I I actually use that. You a cast iron pot but that's just think I I I ...you know, bank Father,

...

but, now I call it, you know, Baking ten, I guess, you know, where you you you you're you you pour the the dough into it, and then it and then it assumes the shape of the dial. Right?

...

I mean,.

...

Yes. Yes. Yes.

...

So they then mean it's a cookie powder approach. Basically, they ...it's almost like, the push ...the the questions by nature

...

imply that they're looking for very specific

...

type of

...

of project or work,

...

which is great because, you know, it's it's another

...

another way for artists to get fed and watered,

...

but it is still

...

not quite what we're talking about here.

...

Intuitive to right speaking.

...

Yeah you know itself.

...

You that i'll your in your your imagination in order to be able to exercise your imagination.

...

Mm-mm

...

and also

...

spotlight so, like, you know, some of the problems that are there. So well, yes, there are way more ways that that artists can

...

can get it gain attention to their work and can, you know, start figuring that monetizing

...

path.

...

There are still plenty of of of starving artists out there and people who are doing

...

really, really,

...

like, they're they're working darn hard, and they're doing really creative ways of of trying to gain attention to their work. And we also have to remember that all those different ways of sort of adding things on social media

...

and and all those tools,

...

all of that takes time.

...

And I mean, you look at, you know, your your corporations

...

and

...

you know, most of the time, there's, like, you know,

...

not just one full time person, but, like, teams of full time people behind

...

behind

...

messaging. So when you're thinking of the artists and you're expecting them to do all that for themselves,

...

it it it it is still quite easy there for, you know, to have the poor starving artist. And in the in the case of all three of us, I mean, were ...all

...

...we've all had a certain, and I'm assuming this with you, Natasha,

...

but we've all had a certain level of education

...

allows us to access those grants that allows us to be able to write

...

write those those applications up for ourselves. And and even, like, in the case of, like, because ...this is that's the problem I'm always running into on on

...

some of those graphs myself is that

...

with the language that you've got there,

...

you've got a language that doesn't

...

necessarily

...

move to people trying new things.

...

And then, like the cartoons is that, however, you articulate

...

they're going to understand what it is that you're doing. And then when you get to the budget portion of the grand top,.

...

Usually,

...

the way they've set out the budget completely does not work

...

And and then it's it's the hope that, you know, when you put in the fees, like, you know, the the amounts, the cost

...

that

...

that they're not gonna assume that you're completely out to lunch

...

on on what you know, the costs are to create that work because they've never

...

or created something like that. And then you've also got the issue of

...

most graphs are run by jury.

...

And jerry are people with individual bias.

...

And so,

...

you know, it

...

with any given time than an artist applying to a grant, you know, the question then becomes is

...

is the jury on the other side?

...

Gonna be

...

open to to what it is that I'm creating,

...

or even ultimately, to me as a person

...

I I think in ...I'm in Canada, and I think in Canada,

...

certainly

...

in the film and television world,

...

we have issue with that with our our

...

grand applications

...

in in the sense that there's a lot of

...

where,

...

you know, quite often,

...

the the grants go to the same people all the even when they're not actually creating at the end of the day, what they say they're gonna create.

...

Often they'll just bend it whatever they feel like spending to it on. And you then they continue to get the grants over and over again.

...

And that's so so all separate separate conversation.

...

Oh, it absolutely is. But it ...but it does lead to this whole idea that that it's ...I mean, even though there is there there are different opportunities and different things out there. It still comes down to like, as the artist,

...

there's a lot of work just figuring out which which direction of which way to go in yourself. And and as as

...

as you're aware, like, quite often, like, those grand applications

...

are a full time job just to sit down and and rank them, and then you don't know if you're gonna guess the grants at the end of the day.

...

So that's not to be like super negative. It's just ...it's just just a fact that third.

...

We can Can try and steer. We can try and steer the the the conversation down the path of

...

let's

...

invent other ways

...

for artists to to

...

raise some revenue, which is, you know, which is what

...

the program

...

we're working on is

...

in large part about there is a two way straight of value. You, the organization gets the brains of the artist.

...

And with like the people in the organization get to think different,

...

and the artist

...

gets

...

revenue from something other than commission, sale of art, royalties,

...

or or or all sponsorship

...

or publishing. Right? Whatever, Like, the established ways. But so what we're trying to to figure out is

...

whether or not there is enough

...

concrete

...

interest

...

actual

...

interest with, you know, bottom line

...

of dollar signs attached to it.

...

In this model

...

where

...

what we believe is necessary, what has been demonstrated

...

as being

...

effective and productive

...

and what come people in

...

organizations are often crying out for, that is

...

bring us that evening show us how to

...

look at what

...

what we're doing differently because we're too close to this damn thing.

...

So we're trying to figure out if that assumption

...

of that possible

...

two way exchange of value is in fact

...

vaglio, and I'm hoping that that we will get there in the next six months so

...

through of the project we will be updating

...

updating

...

on here and and in in in other media.

...

But it is, you know, it's an ongoing conversation,

...

and there are no easy answers.

...

So this conversation will probably continue adding infinite item.

...

Not least because

...

art is a way of pointing at how we might cross various boundaries and overcome obstacles,

...

except it doesn't necessarily mention those

...

boundary boundaries and obstacles

...

explicitly, which is a problem for business.

...

Because business likes to have things

...

laid out precisely and clearly.

...

But we're working on that too. We're working on, you know,

...

methodologies and

...

approaches that actually allow

...

people in companies and or organizations to

...

to look at numbers,

...

you know, bad spreadsheets and say, oh, this actually, does work.

...

I'm finding that really exciting at the moment because

...

I'm hearing these echoes at the moment where it's where there's a few different parties that

...

are sort of are looking at this problem and trying to spark change.

...

And so this is this is part of the reason why I'm I've been so excited about

...

sort of that movement around the web monetization

...

standard that that I shared with you

...

on the creative farm. No. Is ...because it's it's it's added exact same problem that they're trying to tackle there.

...

There are lots of people with great ideas and beautiful work who are finding it difficult for whatever reason

...

to actually make meet. In order to be able to produce more good ideas and beautiful work.

...

And that's a that's on a cultural level civilization level. That's a problem. Right?

...

There is ...yep.

...

In it anyhow, I I'm I'm loving the fact that there are great minds out there like yourself, but are

...

that

...

rather

...

...then

...

you are Canadian, so I will take it with a grain but thank you.

...

It's true though.

...

Thank you I got to listen to your shows.

...

Thank you. This has been great fun.

...

Natasha.

...

It's been

...

a privilege to to

...

throw some of these ideas back and forth, and I'm sure we'll do it. Do it again.

...

Within

...

the confines of this format or maybe elsewhere,

...

natasha

...

artist writer,

...

performer, god knows else. And what haven't she done? Annoying, annoying human beings who can do so many things well,

...

coming and from Florida and Erica Ha. Thanks for popping in.

...

I'm not not from Florida. Oh, oh, no.

...

Sorry..

...

You know the moment. But come on over and I got. It's really wonder hot of you.

...

Warm. It's warm down there. Thank you, ladies. It has been great fun. And

...

this has been the Bummer

...

global studio my name's,

...

and we will

...

see you or hear you, rather.

...

Same time. More or less. Next Friday.

...

Have a great afternoon or evening.

...

Or what have you? Catch you later.

...

Thank you, Ralph. It's been wonderful.

...

Yes. Thank you, Ralph. And thank you, Natasha. I I really enjoyed Joy listening to you today, So

...

I'm I'm looking forward checking out more of your work.

...

Wonderful.

...

And thank you. For i keep joining the stage,

...

it's ...yeah. It's been delightful.

...

So

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