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...

And

...

And

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In this world, Apparently, nothing can be said to be certain.

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Except death

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and taxes.

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So said Benjamin Franklin,

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and

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that was in seventeen eighty nine.

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Daniel

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He of the

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Robinson crew so fame had already.

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Use the phrase in seventeen twenty six.

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And Christopher Bull,

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and English drama

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had said the same thing in seventeen,

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sixteen, so we can assume that there had been others

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stretching back in history for of long

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have been taxes

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and death.

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Now

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try as I might.

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I have not been able to locate any inspiring art,

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celebrating taxes.

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Affairs with tax collectors maybe,,

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the dodging of taxes

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by William Shakespeare in real life,

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not least

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or

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indeed murder

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of

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tax collectors,

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which elegantly brings brings us back to the other certainty of life.

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That is death,

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which in contrast to taxes has been

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dealt with

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if you're well

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extensively by

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the arts from Shakespeare,

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who considered it it's many

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angles, not to say nations

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in much detail to

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countless paintings depicting the death of

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the great and the good

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deaths of saints

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and matters and, of course, the grizzly death on on the cross of the Christ,

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formed the canon of Christian arts,

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visual literary, and so on.

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But, of course, that is just a tip of that cold deathly

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iceberg.

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This is the creative farm, and here to discuss

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the wise and the way force on death

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of death passing

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and their relationship with the arts are

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regular farm hands,

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writer director,

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Po jitter,

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and composer and musician, Adrian Coca,

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gentlemen, welcome again.

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To the creative farm.

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I nice to be here ralph. Mark words.

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It seems to me that we get lost in metaphor.

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All too often, we get lost in metaphor while attempting

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to explain

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this metaphor as something

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direct and physical,

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which, of course,

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is not likely to work, particularly well, Perhaps the best known attempt

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to me at least

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at grasping

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the the balloon of reality,

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without squeezing the metaphor life out of it.

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Is hers famous.

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If I remember correctly physical impossibility

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of death,

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in the mind of someone living

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that Killer shark

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preserved

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in a tank of formal,

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why do we have such trouble

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leaving metaphor as metaphor?

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Why do we have this drive to explain?

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Pointless

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and inadequate,

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metaphor as something

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breathing and living.

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Who wants to go first?

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Why well,

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I mean, you know, metaphor

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is

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something that I guess started in poetry in the romantic

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tradition as far as i'm aware. Maybe it began earlier, but

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from my English literature degree, I remember it was a big part, and

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there's purified John Dunn, you had

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things called seats, which were,

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you know, a very elaborate idea

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that

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was that kind of pivot in a opal.

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Sort of like a very elaborate image or metaphor.

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He of asking us for whom the bell told. Right?

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The the famous

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one that I remember, which always struck me is really beautiful. One was

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remember John dumb exactly now. But

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it was

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to do with compass it was this conceived or this metaphor

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which was about, you know, encompasses the old compass, not the

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magnetic compass, but, like, come that you would draw a circle with ...Yeah. And

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the idea they can see was

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lovers are two ends of two

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encompasses,

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And

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the further they get apart

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the more they become one in the way that as a compass opens up, it's stops been two things. It becomes like the one straight ish metal bar.

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So, you know,

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I think that was a that was a there was a

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a vaglio addiction of

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of sorts

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that power that

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of morning.

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Well, that sort of thing. Yeah. If I remember correct

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women wait. We we are we are heading straight for this ...the the subject of hand here. Yeah. I mean, I think

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but metaphor. I mean, you know, I I just ...I

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mean, if I was to trying to pick wine metaphor,

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I mean, in my world, you know, I think saying, the beautiful thing about sound

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is that it isn't metaphor is actually a real vibrating

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and see that you experience and everyone

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who sorta of piece of music

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experience day obviously so you can create different combinations of these vibrations. And,

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you know, some ...you

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know, the end one thing I was trying really an of about music kind of it links to this idea of,

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you know, endings

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is the

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sound that doesn't end?

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I mean, it just becomes

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it moves to a a point where it is not audible, but that doesn't mean that the vibration of the sound

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has

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become nothing. You know, because,

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you know, even though I show my ignorance of some aspects of science last week, you know,

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physics you know, one of the laws is nothing ...and energy can't be created or destroyed. So

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sounds a continuous recycling of

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energies that already

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exist.

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And sorry, it's kinda works differently. I guess, to some of these

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ideas that are like, slightly more.

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As just said, you know, trying to use

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symbol so explain reality.

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I mean, I studied literature actually rather than studied music. So I kind of have a bit of a

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bit of a grasp of both to some degree, but, you know, I always found that's why I loved about music. Just cut to

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an exponential thing, and you didn't have to

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kind of,

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you know,

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cook, you know,

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you didn't have to use cognitive

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abstract processes

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to grasp something could just feel it.

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And I think I wanna tell music that They love just understand that, you know, intuitively.

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Well, music

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and literature and the visual

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of in terms of

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our little little

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mini subject tonight.

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Have always

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wrestled with bot trials of death

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and passing and somehow maybe music

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has been more successful or at least

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less

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unsuccessful as at grasping

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the metaphor,

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maybe ...and

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I'm thinking of

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instrumental music primarily here.

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Because of its indirect and

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lack of literal

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descriptions though if we listen to late Mala, of course, one could be excuse for thinking. It's all about

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literal descriptions of death.

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But can music

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following on from what you've been saying, can music

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help us get comfortable with metaphor?

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I mean, ...so,

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you know, there's some kind of recent examples of people using

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metaphor in material, I guess as always say. So, like, you know, there's a is piece by American composer called William

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Called the deformation leaps,

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which is, you know, quite

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you know, it is quite

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a

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an obvious piece of music so in in insult some in some ways, these days And what he did, you know, when nine eleven was

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happening or around that time he was i, live somewhere in Brooklyn or someone near to the you know, safe tip of hand,

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and you had

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all these

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real of tape of these kind of semi unsuccessful

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pieces of experimental pascal music recorded,

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and he was sitting this Studio.

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And it was around the time that nine eleven happened. So it was in the ether I don't know whether it was before after or Jordan.

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But anyway, he was running these tapes

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back into the compute obviously.

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We now live in a digital era, and so

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these tapes though because they were made of

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you know, tape has got

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iron on it. It has a ...is

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it fairy cox the coconut tape? Anyway, ...yeah.

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The the the the it peels off this actually ...it it actually peels off the tape. And

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So anyway,

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he was trying to

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save these tapes or they

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not just disintegrate totally.

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But he was failing, and then he suddenly realized that, actually, maybe there's a composition process, so he cut them into loops,

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and then she ran these loops of dis disengage tape

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into the computer,

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which meant that, even though the music was kind of stuck in the same

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you know,

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same loop same material,

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It was changing,

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and it changed incrementally.

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Or do incrementally,

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if that's a word over time.

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And so, like, this was a narrow long piece of just one loop of tape, and it's very yellow giant.

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And I think the artwork of it was the

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was the twin towers, you know, post nine eleven.

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Or the remainder the twin towers.

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And so, you know, I guess that's an example of

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some sort of imagery symbolism.

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Working in a kind of intuitive way

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responding to something

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in a non obvious way

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and making a piece of art

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Yes. There's there seems to be

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there seems to be an awareness

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that there is beauty in tragedy and beauty in

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or fullness there's some somehow

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beauty of this

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terrible impairment,

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indeed, in Japan

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in Japan, that have all

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sort of fabulous things in Japan

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there's a whole long tradition called

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Of depicting human decomposition.

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Sometimes with the health of schwarzenegger no less,

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if you if you imagine there is a a particular

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famous

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series of

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of rather

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stark yet beautiful paintings,

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titled. If I remember correctly the death of a noble lady,

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where in the first

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panel indeed the noble lady succumb to

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the grim reaper,

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and then she is left out

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in the elements,

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and her body decompose and the last thing

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the last panel is a

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is a Tombstone where nothing remains

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of the person.

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This idea of imp permanent

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is sewn into

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the performance of art, the creation of a piece.

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Pull

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permanent

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and passing

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really the building blocks of theater.

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Oh, yeah. Fundamental.

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That's that's what I think that is the the the special or

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arts of the theater is that it's

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it's it's born and it lives and it dies right in front of you.

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Over and over.

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And then and then then it's reborn on the next Tuesday.

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And then it's board on nexus or it's not.

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And

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I can tell you,

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in

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also just in the making of it and and in the

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the performing of it,

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for example, in New York,

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we quite often did it like this that you

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would make a piece in several weeks, like, four to six weeks. To a rehearsal to make it,

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and then you would run it for three or four weeks.

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And then

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almost always. That was the last time that show ever

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was played.

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And that's how it was designed.

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And that was the that's sort of the American system, generally.

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Unless you get some long running hit or something, and then it's a different story. But generally, most shows,

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the vast majority of shows don't repeat.

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And so you have this

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situation where you've poured your entire being into into bringing these characters

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to life.

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You read life into into the characters of in the play.

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And the actors are living with these characters and growing them and

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developing them. And, of course, you're living and your in relationships with each other and that's feeding into it. And then one day, it's all over,

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and it's over forever.

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And

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and it's a death. In fact,

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And

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I often found, like, after we finished the show,

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it'd be, like, six months of morning,

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you know, for for all the characters who died

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for the the the ...extreme

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life that we were living trying to keep the show running.

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So in a sense, it's

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it mirrors the the the the the process.

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And I think that it's it's

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the fact that when you go to a performance,

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that it's it's a unique experience it only happened that way that night.

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Or that day in that time, you have to be there,

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and

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it's mortal

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it's a mortal experience and it will die.

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And what you're left with is only a residue that you can you can only revisit in your memory.

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And isn't that beautiful?

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And I think that is the beauty of the theater and white I think a leader cuts closest to death in fact,

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I recall recall an utterly magical

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performance of a mid summer nights dream many many years ago in Melbourne by the Melbourne Theater company

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with

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And

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it wasn't entirely magical because the actors where stopping in contemporary,

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get up and

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the the whole staging wasn't limited to the stage. It was in fact,

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one of those wonderful

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examples of interaction. And, of course,

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it had its run, and then that was that. And

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all the other actors went off and did other gigs

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and indeed,

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the play

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then

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was in hi

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until it was revived by somebody else somewhere else.

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Dollars,

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and

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vo gang lights

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pollen works,

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which actually quite famous.

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And

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motor motors

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salt installations, which are nowhere when famous and and should be

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look look him up.

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These

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embrace permanent are central to their work.

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And, of course, this is indirect contrast to

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marvel sculpture and music recorded on optical disks. And

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old masters

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preserved, while they're their paintings,

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not the masters themselves preserved in

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perfect museum,

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permanent, and passing.

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It's a it's an eternal dance as a central motif to art, isn't it?

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I mean, I think, you know, I remember talking recently to a friend of mine who's a painter, and he was

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he was

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really disappointed that every time you went into an exhibition now of a major artist,

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there was always glass, you know, so oil painter and pictures there whether there's a kind of

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there's a sheen on the surface of the old paint that really ...the light plays with. And if you put a layer of glass over,

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then, obviously, you're kind of putting a distance

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and trying to kind change the interaction move with the pain.

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And, you know,, this is done for, like, financial reasons because this is an asset. You have to preserve it. You have to

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preserve it from decay from, you know, all the kind of natural forces

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that made the painting.

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And, you know,

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obviously recently noticed it all the kind of digital

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All are wanting to I against space

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or they wanted to live forever.

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But you know, if you get Cd,

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which is a very digital

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media, and it scratches.

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You can't play it again.

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And it's done throw away a piece of vinyl with it

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it has scratches on it and the pattern of age becomes the part of it, which is kind of very talking about about permanent, which is inherent everything and

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the humans do

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certain

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materials reflect it in a way that's meaningful

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others just seem to be in denial of it. And I think a lot of the digital culture

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is ...I mean, I'm sure it'll come to grips with it eventually,

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And at the moment digital stuff is trying to be

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eternal,

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and when it's knowledge it disappears,

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I mean, you know, the whole thing as one of preserving archives, and I think there's a huge amount

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of work goes into

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turning things into

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digital archives, and then actually don't have to preserve a ditch code

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So well, a lot of the a lot of the

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large

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photo libraries

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have digitized their collections

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of photographs

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and then destroyed the originals.

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Because it was too expensive to to to, you know, store them,

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which is kind of an interesting take on that. But this how this whole thing about permanent and it and imp perm, it's

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it's a struggle. It's tension, and there are these artists who have

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rebelled and really walked at the very

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idea of of of somehow having to be

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permanent

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Thinking of of the of My thing, that the the film director, you know, Mike fig who

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rebelled famously

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asking what why do we have to have

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permanent? Why can we not just get with the idea that things are not permanent?

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Seems like an existential struggle way beyond the

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the the purview of art.

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Well, we're all we're all facing it

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whether we like it or not, and certainly

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the history of civilization

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is very littered with

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the humerus of of men, building massive monuments

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to somehow

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stave off be inevitable or to

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postpone it or ...may, I just I always think about the Egyptian

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and, you know, there was a culture that was really obsessed

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with preservation

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and prominence.

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And

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the look at the the pyramids. I mean ...at the end of the day, what are those?

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They're, like, a permanent term

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They're not any less dead than than than anybody right

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in fact.

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And I I I I just described me after I I came across the other day that

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when when the mummy of Rams,

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the second, I think, I heard was the second first was ...he went on he went on tour.

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It was a second, I think was was the the

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the the more famous of this. Like he went on tour

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as a and his mummy is was remarkably preserved.

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Mean, really, it's extraordinary. If you consider just how ancient those things are. Yeah. Future he looked. He looked like a sort of a

...

an

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old man. Right? Exactly. And he he was issued a passport.

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And I've seen the passport photo of here. What wait wait wait wait the dead guy was issues..

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Yes.

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And so if you think about it, Hang on hang on. The Republic of Egypt issued a passport to a guy who's been dead for thousands of years. Yes.

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How cool is that? How cool is that? No that name so with performance shot, don't just like I I I I love this. Gesture.

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And and it's a real passport. They really

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issued in this official document,

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and it traveled with him. You know, when they put them on the plane. And he got visas and stamps and everything. Everything.

...

And so in the sense like he,

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he built his whole life, and that whole culture was built around this idea of him were of of

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of gaining a immortality of getting a seat to the dodge table and clever.

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And and yet he

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here is corpses, all these thousands of years later, and it's giving on an airplane and then flying to

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Germany, I think where when they had a mix exhibition.

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And she's kind of passport. Everything is, like, he actually pulled it off

...

he

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I'm leaning on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again. That. Yeah.

...

And but I I wanted to go back to the beginning of the conversation

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because you were talking about metaphor.

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And

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and I wanna share with share with you guys ...what

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I I still think is the best the best description

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or definition.

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Excuse me a metaphor that I've ever heard.

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Because it's ...this this is fact what metaphor is is not so obvious.

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Everyone uses this word, and

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everyone thinks they know what it means.

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But it isn't so clear. It's almost as elusive as as the concept.

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But the definition is like this that

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metaphor

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is like this if

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if you want to look at the sun,

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you cannot look at it directly.

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You have to

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look about forty five degrees away from it. Right? And then if you you you actually can look at the sun then out of the cup corner of your eye.

...

And the

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metaphor

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was is to defined then as as the the distance between the thing you're looking at and that forty five degree angle.

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So

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you're looking over there and you see it in the corner of your eye, and then you can see it, But to look directly at it, would blind you.

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And so

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that's is it ...this is just a wonderful way to describe it.

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And I think that that's what that's where for me, that's where Metaphors places is because it you're looking at something that's that's so

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the truth or whatever you want to call. That's so blinding. And so gigantic that you can't fathom it. You can't see it. In fact, it's too vast.

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So the dow, you can describe is not that, you can merely describe the thing that it is not right.

...

Fascinating. What a fabulous description?

...

So like, I don't ...I've been ...when

...

when I was ...I made a piece about about auschwitz,

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and, you know, how do you approach something like that?

...

...it's it's it's almost impossible because it's it's such a vast and awful thing that it's it's too big. It's, of course, all about death.

...

And

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for how do you find a way into it?

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The how do you find the metaphor that allows you to see it?

...

In fact, to see the the vast of it.

...

And in my case, I found

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this photo album that was made by

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one of the perpetrator, like a home

...

album,

...

and

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you're looking at pictures of the guy at work

...

and his mates and it all seems

...

very bizarre and familiar

...

it looks like a corporate retreat somehow or, you know, photos from my time in the camp,

...

you know, on ...no picture of the dead and dying. Right? There's no pictures of death. There's no pictures of prisoners.

...

If you don't recognize some of the particular architecture behind them, you wouldn't know exactly where they are.

...

And the only thing that is for sure is that that we've identified the people in the pictures and we know that they were there, and they were ...it's all of the senior

...

Assess officers who were there.

...

And so

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doctor Mango and his buddies,

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Doctor Mango

...

rid of hers,

...

the the officer who took the pictures and who's in most of the pictures Carl Heck,

...

is were all the senior people there. And when you look at that

...

then

...

you ...then you see

...

the bodies. Then you see

...

the the scale of it because you're ...you suddenly ...you

...

you understand that these

...

smiling

...

normal looking intelligent looking even handsome people

...

were committing genocide.

...

And so you can't see Genocide somehow, in a, in the same way when you can,

...

if you're looking directly at piles of bodies,

...

of course, that's shocking in its own way, but somehow, it doesn't it it it's too narrow

...

whereas when you looked at this in the absence of death,

...

in the absence of suffering and prisoners and all the rest. You suddenly see it bright and clear.

...

And so in this sense, became those pictures are somehow were kind of perfect metaphor

...

for for the entire event.

...

Recall some of the photographs and it's just

...

guys in uniform, smoking cigarettes, drinking beer hanging out with beautiful women,

...

put in context of

...

who they were and what they were doing.

...

Makes the metaphor

...

the

...

that much more powerful. Doesn't it?

...

And indeed, and I I think that the the the the the theater figured this one out a long time ago.

...

And I think we ...we've

...

kind of lost our way in in many ways in this sense. But if you when need look at how the how the Greeks handled

...

death,

...

So quite often,

...

like, look at, like, one of the most, you know, well known of the ancient greek tragedies.

...

When when she kills the kids,

...

it's done off stage.

...

So she says she's gonna go kill the kids.

...

And she leaves

...

and she goes into the little house,

...

and

...

then someone comes on stage and tells what happened.

...

So we don't see the death.

...

But the death it ...it's all the more terrible for us all imagine it when. Is much more travel for us to imagine it,

...

which is, you know, the then if you compare that to, like,

...

the Jack

...

and

...

in England. Like, well, then ...no. We wanna see it.

...

Then we wanna see it on stage in front as a big blood bath. Off with his head. Yeah. And we we we have blood flying everywhere. And that's ...and we're still I think, in our our contemporary world world where's what Jacob

...

we love to see this slaughter up, you know, over Romans. We like to see it, you know, as if it was really happening in front of us.

...

But but the the problem that I

...

I always noticed with that is that

...

the response in live performance

...

is is often laughter.

...

You know, that

...

it's it's the opposite of

...

of approaching a real understanding or sense of death.

...

Well, you also have to have to let go of the tension somehow.

...

Yeah. But I think you know, when when the death happens off stage, You don't laugh

...

because no. She's not funny, you know, it's that. And, you know, whereas when we just like, she's

...

go

...

and dumb kid killed all her kids.

...

Yeah.

...

Theater,

...

is

...

is a particular arena in which death can really pull his weight.

...

Unless, of course, it's on Tv and the show is

...

family guy and death is

...

an annoying that shit who lives with his mother, but but I I I digress

...

theater of the tragic theater of the absurd

...

documentary theater,

...

chorus

...

narrator

...

have presented us with a composite

...

theatrical portrait of death.

...

I think since some ...well,

...

since

...

the first

...

actor stood up in front of the first audience and said, let me tell you a scary story.

...

And somehow to me, the ...the first word that comes

...

as a result of all that is tired,

...

death must be exhausted by now,

...

which is why his usually portrait as a payload

...

worn out kind of chap.

...

But there are other performances used to describe death,

...

and they

...

are far more

...

interesting.

...

What have you seen as

...

the more interesting metaphors and parables? And

...

and,

...

you know, other such conferences.

...

You mean in terms of

...

input a portrait of the process of passing?

...

What

...

there's one one performance, which

...

I I I I certain Will never forget.

...

That got at death in a way,

...

also and also violent death. And the the process of of dying

...

in a way that I I've never seen done better,

...

And

...

it was a

...

a performance which was done by a company from

...

Argentina.

...

I can't remember the name now It's been a long time ago.

...

And they had set up

...

a bunch of chairs

...

Well, let me take it back.

...

But when you walked into the theater,

...

they ...everyone

...

was given a number

...

on a ticket.

...

Without any explanation.

...

And i like all a piece of paper. Yeah. A piece of like, a little, like, your ticket to a stub. So we can stub with a number on it. Okay. And we were handed these, and they and we were told that no one certain terms don't lose this.

...

And but no nothing was explained about what it meant.

...

But, of course, it put the the the ultimate fear into our hearts because this this ...this

...

invited the possibility of audience

...

participation,

...

which is, of course,

...

a fate almost worse than death.

...

So we were recall quite nervous with our tickets and wondering what it all meant.

...

Then at a certain point in the performance,

...

which was very

...

topic

...

play

...

that was very much about

...

the violence in our tina and the disappearance of people

...

and the horrible

...

kind of dirty wars that we're going on there.

...

And

...

the actors set up on the stage

...

chairs,

...

and they brought out life sized

...

artist, Mannequins. Do you know I'm talking about these little wooden mannequins or sometimes painters used to model with or shoulders, but they were life sized.

...

And they were dressed,

...

but they were very clearly

...

not people. They were mannequins,

...

but they were ...but they you could move their arms and you could move their heads.

...

And then

...

the

...

once this ...audience,

...

basically,

...

a mirror audience was facing us.

...

They came up to the stage and started calling out numbers.

...

And

...

then they proceeded to go to certain of these puppets

...

and torture them.

...

And break them to pieces.

...

But with real violence,

...

in a way that you could never do on stage with a real person,

...

like, they were beating them with shovel and

...

axes and

...

things, and it was just absolutely

...

excruciating.

...

And

...

you ...it was the closest that I can think of in in my time in the theater of really grasp

...

death.

...

That it's happening in front of you.

...

And and what it and and and the act of murder in fact,

...

and

...

But what what struck me about it is that that that it was this amazing tension because there's no ...you're

...

under no illusion that those are real people.

...

They don't look real at all. They ...it's very obvious that they're not real. But the violence is real, but the mileage is real.

...

And your imagination

...

can. You can just imagine what was happening in those in those football for football stadium,

...

Exactly. Oh. And so for me, this was this was a way that that

...

it's always this question and and I think in art is is is is distance

...

is ...it's

...

distance and right. If it's just and right, then it really lands.

...

And

...

what's right is ...you know, that's subjective. It's hard to say, but but still distance for sure there's something in there was something in the distance of that that allowed it to work

...

as as as

...

visual

...

or performative metaphor?

...

Well, we are degree decentralized by screen violence, I guess, by now.

...

So when it actually happens,

...

and the submit

...

or metaphor

...

space.

...

It is that much more

...

powerful. I guess, this is the creative farm.

...

I'm here around the back of the shed with

...

for and Adrian Cooker, and we are discussing death

...

and the arts,

...

adrian,

...

in

...

the series and staff which you've been

...

writing music for

...

three at three

...

seasons now, I think

...

death is never far away.

...

From the edge of the screen and often at his front and center there are

...

people with guns and bad intent

...

everywhere.

...

On both sides of the law,

...

how do you handle

...

this

...

endless recurring

...

motif without stumbling from one cliche the next.

...

Well, I think, you know, that that's that's when you're aware.

...

In hap was watching a film yesterday, and I I I had this similar experience where ...the

...

film

...

is called a deep splash, the Italian director

...

is based on a phone like to see in the french film nineteen sixty nine occurring director.

...

And it it's

...

the director who did the spirit,

...

Luke

...

wherever his name is a sicilian

...

director.

...

By anyway, this film,

...

there was a death coming in a swimming pool And I knew that there's was a piece of music by this italian composer called Teaching and so Shall

...

who

...

I

...

you know, I'm sort

...

fan of some music, and

...

I just was waiting for this

...

piece of music, and I thought they're gonna play it over the death. And the thing is with this piece of music.

...

All that it does is it doesn't use the notes and a piano. So, you know, you have twelve notes in the piano.

...

Yeah. Have

...

Obviously, a lot more frequencies

...

that are

...

run around,

...

and

...

we have this language which we use to articulate emotions. And, you know, usually, if you stray out of these twelve notes,

...

in any kind of conventional narrative with music used to picture,

...

this

...

becomes horror music. And actually, it's the opposite

...

music played on a piano out of tune with

...

nature in terms of

...

how sound is

...

be degraded

...

and

...

how it progresses and

...

how it is, you know, the piano is just a piece of technology that allow a lot of people to play together.

...

And you have to play different keys, and, you know, it was useful for that, but it is not in chin at all.

...

So

...

anyway, the this piece of music, which was using

...

different tuning systems, using italian composer

...

Around post was kind of italian hours to crowd. You how different was it, like,

...

quarter tone different or yeah. Well chord tones,

...

which are like, they'll obviously,

...

you know, so those who

...

might not know their

...

in between the summertime.

...

The notes in between the notes that notes between the notes. And

...

so Chelsea was more in east and religion, and

...

you know ...So

...

if you hear like, a buddhist

...

for ritual music, you know, they will use similar,

...

similar of harmonic

...

structures, you know, like drones, with very close intervals. That are almost the same note that not quite. So that's like ...because quite often though we be playing

...

instruments made out of

...

real things. It's impossible to tune. So, you know, actually, again, relating to death, the buddha would play

...

I think a side, like a trumpet

...

and did

...

and they and they played

...

played

...

drums made made of of human skulls

...

Yeah. I the tomorrow I think they're called department correctly.

...

Yeah. And I think these things were hot to cheer, obviously. So

...

that's whatever a chromatic tuning is not a thing with human bones

...

when the play together, they've create noise why you.

...

But actually, it's the sound of real things by breaking together. And,

...

you know, you can go to source things about this. But I mean, so anyway, back your a question about Death start in this film,

...

I thought they're gonna use Chelsea over the heart someone's has died in

...

gets killed in in the pool, but I didn't They used it in a scene actor. So it was kind of

...

partially saved

...

But the the fact that that music is still used as a means

...

represents in

...

negative emotions or

...

suspense to me is is the wrong use of it.

...

I find a lot of that music really beautiful, but just this social context that we take

...

has kind of like, link these things suffering and tension and death.

...

So since start, you know, I was just trying

...

...I

...

mean, you know, I was trying to

...

not do that always. I mean, there was pieces. I mean, i have titles of the music, which just

...

ridiculous

...

things like,

...

you know, I murdered your husband

...

and

...

who shot my son.

...

You know, often quite I'd use the the like, piece of dialogue

...

that start to a scene or that was like, the central

...

you know,

...

reason of ever seen just because when you write music, q and, you know, you've gotta

...

you go to,,

...

link it to what was going on to the real thing where I've been kind of adding some poetic

...

layer to it,

...

So quite often but then the music doesn't sound like the title of them.

...

Yeah. That that's the thing that I was listening some of it the other day, had sense i someone and,

...

you know, I made my husband doesn't sound like someone who's

...

murdered their husband.

...

In fact, it's quite a beautiful piece of music. And so,

...

I mean, okay. I said that perhaps other people would disagree, but

...

relative to say,

...

you know, more distant piece music.

...

So I think that's,

...

you know, musically how I deal with that. You just go against to grown and, you know, because that kind of convincing in cinema recently post nineties that does that anyway. So that people that talented you know,

...

we'll have stuck in the middle of you. Why why are they thinking of Seventeen just then?

...

And, you know, I wasn't aware. I didn't do that. Approach engine star, but, you know, I was aware in sometimes the way of story and the the eight, and the narrative was been framed that there was a kind of nod

...

to that, you know, that a humor as well that the fact that something could be really deep violent.

...

And, actually, it can be funny at the same time.

...

You know, back to,

...

you know, the idea that we have that, you know, things have to be one thing, and sometimes,

...

the most horrific things can be like, really bizarre

...

as you were saying about auschwitz

...

or

...

in this case, you know, in the middle of it ever the scene, which is pretty brutal,

...

there is some bit of humor.

...

So

...

you know, I think it's combining different strands of things to create something that

...

reflects.

...

Something less to i dimension in police showed really.

...

The other of of death, of course, is is grief.

...

And

...

grace may come before

...

or after.

...

And

...

somehow,

...

the artist's

...

license to be naked with their emotions,

...

in it's not something that

...

is usually taken up by the rest of us. I'm thinking

...

in particular

...

of famous artists who have processed their own personal grief.

...

Through there art, Captain, Robert Plant, nick Cave,

...

all lost sons and wrote songs about it.

...

But

...

that was Captain and Robert Plant and Nick Cave.

...

Somehow,

...

I think, quote unquote ordinary people may find it more

...

unusual and common and difficult to access

...

these

...

artistic capacity if you will.

...

But

...

how would you how would you ...if ...if

...

someone in, you know, approached you in the high street and said, listen,

...

I know you're in musician,

...

and I've just lost such and such, and I have not no idea.

...

How to deal with that. How do how do help me with help me work with music?

...

Help me work with

...

something?

...

Help me work with what I have.

...

Where would just start in such a difficult

...

impossible situation?

...

I mean, I think

...

I've done ...I've

...

talked a few musicians

...

who

...

high level in geneticist, and

...

they

...

lose ...well not they allure. They move past

...

the

...

connection

...

between sound,

...

the con the social contextual

...

learn response certain intervals or chords or or

...

scales,

...

but inherently relating tracing and in most,

...

you know, most of these things are, like culturally

...

developed,

...

which doesn't mean that they're wrong. It just means that they're not right either.

...

So

...

the fact that a minor is a sad key or that the minor key

...

is real is used to kind of express certain shades of emotion,

...

whereas, you know,

...

the major key

...

is seen as less. So

...

...I mean, you know, without ...I'm not the world expert on these things, but I think, you know, these these generally have been contextual

...

created, you know, composers have had these new

...

piece of technology and they've run with them, and they've kind of created,

...

and that responded to the sounds of a minor key then it, you know, it does

...

maybe have some kind of yearning quality that was then translated into

...

you know, pieces of music that were used for loss or sorrow or for

...

these type of things. And but, you know, they they don't,

...

necessarily have to relate like that. So when if someone ...I mean, that's a difficult thing because, you know, if you're a musician, you wanna escape,

...

from the

...

emotional

...

cliches

...

that are being created and you're looking for new ways of using sound.

...

Probably some musicians that I know

...

to kind of try and make people

...

hear things and you again. And so

...

I signed music and emotion quite a complicated one. I mean,

...

music is complicated because I think them the major path for me with music as well,

...

which it relates to this idea of losses that

...

it has in relation to a time

...

so you can hear piece music and

...

the vibration addresses you felt in your body

...

somehow,

...

there's a body memory of the music, which

...

doesn't go. So or

...

it it it it kind of lasts some degree. So yeah, that be music later, and the body responds to as much as the mind.

...

The body can feel those same vibrations again and it kind of almost takes you back to that particular point, everyone

...

as experiences as as far as I'm aware.

...

And I think that side of music

...

is a really powerful thing, but then, you know, it's used

...

to kind of create all sorts of emotional populations

...

and, you know,

...

advertising

...

and,

...

you know, certain other parts of commitment commercial music will you those little tropes and ideas to kind of get a response that is designed to make that response.

...

So

...

actually question. I don't know how I would do that. No one as

...

I'm and you're finding in the high street early.

...

Maybe maybe that's part of the problem, You know, that we ...the

...

collective we have

...

lost this

...

ability to talk

...

to artists

...

or the Char

...

or or someone else who

...

works with

...

with

...

faculties other than what we consider rational

...

but it's rather interesting to consider

...

that

...

research actually

...

goes to show that

...

the

...

themes of death

...

and passing and impending ending

...

are very much present in even in popular music. There was

...

a research paper in the early nineties by

...

consult notes,

...

proper, and mess,

...

which demonstrated that I I quote,

...

Rock and roll music provides other lessons with messages about death

...

in our society, and then later,

...

results indicate that death songs

...

comprise a

...

disproportionately

...

popular

...

subset of top forty music.

...

Is this more like

...

bacteria grieving or a youthful fascination with the end of life.

...

What do you think gentlemen?

...

Well, it seems like the the conversation is is is

...

kind of walking around

...

the function

...

one of the core functions that supposedly

...

the arts were supposed to perform,

...

and that's the much

...

divided and debated word off.

...

And

...

that

...

and the the the concrete definition of this word,

...

which I'm looking at right now come great.

...

So it is the process of releasing

...

and thereby

...

providing relief from

...

strong or repressed emotions.

...

Or per per.

...

And so I also like per because that seems to me like,

...

almost like vomiting.

...

It's it's also premises of passing from one's state to another state. Yes.

...

And so the ...it

...

it seems like this this

...

cath catholicism really cuts against

...

our modern society.

...

Like ...oh,

...

well, you're feeling depressed so you you should be treated for depression

...

because and now I'm just fucking sad because life is because we're mortal.

...

Yeah. Because my friend just died. I have like president. Yeah.

...

I don't need project.

...

I need alcohol and and and a couple of months of solid. Right?

...

Or you could say I need catholicism. I need to purge

...

myself

...

of this

...

this emotion that's so strong and powerful. I can't get of my bodies.

...

It's it's in me and

...

and I think that the the in the theater, this is the at the heart of the of the tragic art

...

that that that the goal was read in the in the fall

...

of

...

the the heroic character

...

that

...

it was our fall and our death.

...

And

...

I had a very interesting experience with guitars because I I always would read about it and study it another but I don't get it. I don't steal it. Because often, you know, I'm I know I'm supposed to feel process, but if fact, get don't care when this guy dies.

...

Or for that this thing happens it's so tragic, business not trench to me. And in fact, I have the opposite. In fact. I'm angry

...

or disappointed.

...

I didn't feel this, you know, transformative

...

ha

...

where his

...

the the the actors for the characters

...

failure or death are full. So how

...

released in the

...

the this huge emotional response of somehow empathy that I I relate to this person's fall.

...

And

...

was very interesting because the ...I I read this paper

...

that was written in response to a a play that I was a part of.

...

And it was talking about guitars in that any ancient Greek

...

idea

...

that you if the king died,

...

in their society, the death of a king

...

was

...

a

...

tremendous

...

existential event.

...

It's not like

...

we're sad that the president died.

...

You know, will be we'd be sad.

...

But but when

...

the king died in their society.

...

This was really like the end of the society. The king was in anointed by God.

...

So

...

we're now what?

...

So if the King fails, the king is blind and leads leads himself to his own disruption, then we we feel catholicism to that because it's our loss too.

...

And the play that I was involved in was the documentary

...

theater piece called Charlie Victor.

...

And actually performed in and as an actor.

...

And what it was was

...

verbatim staging of six

...

air disasters.

...

And the text were was the black Box recordings.

...

And so it's you're looking ...when you watch the play, you're just looking

...

at a nose cone of an airplane. And you see the i let the two pilots and sometimes a flight engineer and and occasionally,

...

someone them will come in and out

...

steward or stewart or something like this. And and it's all pilot for,

...

but each of the load are are extracted from these terrible

...

emergencies,

...

which and almost all of them, they the planes crashed

...

and

...

That was the first time when I I saw the piece before I was in it. And then I really felt guitars.

...

Because the the I the the ...with pilot,

...

I could have a direct relationship to. We've all been on airplanes

...

we all know that we're putting ourselves in the pilot's hands.

...

We all know that our fate is sealed when the door and the plane is shut.

...

And either we're gonna make it or not.

...

And then when we witness this as an audience,

...

the struggle of the captain and their pilot to save the plane

...

and they fail.

...

I felt because ...that was like, the first time I really felt pure guitars.

...

And terror and grief

...

and it brought it all home and then real away. And I think this is this is the struggle

...

that that

...

that

...

the arts must somehow

...

in order to get to catholicism in order to purge ourselves of this

...

these feelings that are inside of of us,

...

it has to work.

...

And

...

it if it's all cliche,

...

if it's been boiled up into

...

advertising music and a all the other ways that that used to work.

...

I think this is this is are frustration

...

is how do we find real catholicism in the arts because I think that's really the arts, one of the arts and the most important jobs, especially music,

...

but and, of course, it's core to theater too.

...

This is the creative form I'm here with Paul.

...

And in Conqueror and

...

if you would like to

...

throw something into the pot ladies ranger, raise your hand and we'll drag you

...

onto the stage kicking and screaming maybe or willingly.

...

Chris, welcome. What what would you like to add to this

...

Jolly conversation?

...

Yeah.

...

I have to jump on a call in two minutes, but

...

just real quick,

...

I'm looking for

...

artists

...

and photographers.

...

I'm working with a client

...

that focuses on acoustic art panels and I've been working with my client for about a year now, and I did ...we did a whole redesign and

...

rebuilt this whole website

...

So what we want to do is we want to feature artists and photographers,

...

put them on the tone website, and then they could sell their artwork on their And then

...

free

...

sounds like and altogether welcome. Welcome idea, and and I'm sure

...

I'm sure you'll ...you'll be ...you'll be able to

...

to

...

source the right

...

right humans on

...

on the

...

on the fireside.

...

Now,

...

Leo, and

...

Leonardo, if you guys would like to would like to pop up

...

that'll be great, but don't feel any pressure because we are coming up to the the bottom of the hour.

...

One thing, one thing that

...

that

...

I find,

...

fascinating

...

is this crossover

...

because, of course, the themes are universal.

...

Of of

...

representation of death and passing in folk art and culture on every continent, maybe with the exception of

...

Antarctica

...

and

...

implications to the grim reaper,

...

not to go too hasty about his work,

...

Ralph Stan,

...

they're throw death once you spare me over till another year comes to mind.

...

And art brought into the public share is also full of thoughts and images of a death imminent approach.

...

I'm sure many of our listeners will have seen,

...

candy chang before I die, brilliant simple black, project.

...

Why people would

...

write down what they wanted to do before

...

they died.

...

This is so universal and so broad that the question

...

that comes to me is

...

can we ever get comfortable with the idea that

...

one day, we will not be ...or

...

must we renew the acquaintance of this idea again and again,

...

to some kind of

...

amateurs

...

public

...

artistic

...

practice.

...

Will this ever end?

...

I think we could possibly do both.

...

If I'm gonna propose stop,

...

I I been looking recently

...

into the imagery or into stories and legends and so on around the phoenix

...

as a metaphor,

...

and

...

this whole death and rebirth and the phoenix space

...

dies and then rebuilt itself from its own ashes, basically,

...

and I found that immensely comforting

...

yes, There is the death, and there is fire and ashes and

...

whole whole a whole lot of messy messy things.

...

But it seems like a lot of cultures

...

seem to have stories about a mystical fire.

...

So not just from the middle east and so on where a lot of that came then through the Greeks and romans and born.

...

And and I think that's really helpful image, so maybe we can kind of have both we can.

...

Be acquainted with death and keep going, and there is this transformation

...

and

...

and so on. And there is beauty in that process. Right? Yes.

...

That is Leo Aloha

...

coming in from

...

coming in from Brightworks tonight. Yes. Excellent.

...

Well done.

...

Not far from you. The the Adrian Adrian

...

is in ...are you are you how are you in in in shortage.

...

Oh worries. Where always might always bloody lockdown down.

...

The person is loud out

...

No. We're all we're all being very, very good kids.

...

One last thing.

...

One last thing, this

...

under the town of hopeful mess

...

or at least acceptance or at least maybe

...

grieving, but knowing that the that grieving is a process that does end.

...

Is something that

...

somehow

...

art certainly

...

helps

...

within the summer of twenty and seventeen,

...

guy

...

went into an Ariana Grande concert and in Manchester and Killed,

...

twenty something people and heard a whole lot more.

...

And as a response,

...

there was a minute silence in the city's

...

main square,

...

and the silent turned

...

into a spontaneous,

...

with the people singing, don't look back in anger by Oasis, which is of course, manchester to band.

...

This kind of public guitars is

...

is important in a

...

not so much understanding the metaphor because we never can't understand it. But but dealing with it and accepting it, isn't it?

...

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think

...

It's the the fact that there's the song that is

...

popular,

...

you know, in the last ages

...

pop music, that transcend

...

a lot of different countries and different ages,

...

oasis for better worse were you know, one of the last brands that really did that before the Internet came in.

...

And so a lot of people know that music and I think it's the communion the communal aspect of

...

if you start singing the words

...

I mean, they're kinda tangent

...

link to subject

...

it's the fact that

...

everyone knows them, and

...

i to tonight in dublin before this cooling. And he said,

...

before the eighties is in in dublin folk songs,

...

you would hear everywhere. You know, you hit them on the broth. You did them

...

people singing them down the street. You hear them in the park. They were just everywhere. And

...

I guess so these type of songs are just the last

...

remnants of the time when, you know, songs wear certain songs were in everyone's consciousness. So

...

in moments where

...

Have great

...

the

...

loss and

...

the the emotions are bigger than what

...

as this breath then

...

these kind of

...

songs that sort of represent a shorthand way of connection and because maybe is about that. Isn't it about your voice with other people's voices.

...

I think that

...

under the fact that you are connecting

...

each is your voices

...

to others who are in the same place

...

is a powerful thing in in music and

...

human culture. And so,

...

you know, in the old days, it was hands and religious

...

songs

...

or folks songs

...

set ireland like

...

...have

...

oasis.

...

Will leave it that.

...

That's a good thing or not. But but, you know, it's it's the same purpose is

...

the need for people can connect reach other through science. Is that is a path.

...

I I remember in the the

...

the height of the

...

Covid crisis in Italy.

...

This

...

opera singer got out on his balcony and

...

started singing

...

an Aria,

...

and it was recorded on someone's iphones

...

and

...

I think that was the first time I I went

...

during all with that. It was very powerful

...

because it

...

his situation was so

...

we could all relate because we all locked up,

...

and

...

he was singing out there on the balcony and you can't see anyone else. There's no one on the street because you know one else out. Everyone's in totally lockdown.

...

And I I found that one to be the part. It was a very ...I forget what sorry. But of one of the most famous aria so everyone knows.

...

And

...

that added just as as you're saying, it it's from somehow added to it's communal power,

...

that we all know it.

...

Mean I have a similar experience at the end of

...

maybe one of the first floor downs where I wore out.

...

There's a bounced near, which was still in late Victorian times by

...

developers who, you know, wanted to give the work is so access to

...

mean them to do whatever

...

they needed to do.

...

And I heard

...

just on a Sunday morning in musicians to just come back,

...

and

...

I think he was

...

Yeah. I can't even remember the insurance actually, but there was three musicians

...

and I just the power of hearing three people

...

who would come down in

...

with, you know, obviously giving their time

...

to play sand you know, to play music together, and I haven't heard music played

...

in in a long time and it was it was like, wow It was like, suddenly the power of

...

their intention to share

...

the intention

...

then their skill and the years that's spent and

...

them actually playing together listening to each other. And know at the same time sharing it with anyone who is that They would just saying ...we we wanna give this to you.

...

Was really powerful and feeling, you know, exact accept a said a few times, You know, the same is

...

I'm unlike, you know, painting or words, it's it's just direct and the way it connects with your nervous system the can,

...

you know, yeah. It it was it was really the I had summer experience to pull already.

...

And so we come to the end

...

another creative farm

...

workday

...

with Paul

...

And Adrian Coca.

...

And.

...

Thank you for contributing to this Jolly conversation.

...

Which no doubt

...

we'll spark of some more discussions in

...

on, you know, Mondays Mondays

...

to come

...

Because, of course,

...

the

...

in the words in the words of the great pathologist Joe Campbell life, has no meaning

...

a way meaning

...

to it.

...

And this is this is ...I guess, what

...

all of this

...

art stuff to do with death and impairment.

...

Actually,

...

has to has to do. Thank you.

...

Adrian, Paul, leo,

...

we'll hear you again before long. I'm sure.

...

Good goodnight.

...

Thank you, Night. Day.

Fortune Cookie