The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

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Transcript

...

I'm sure the way both can

...

go one like this forever, and it was a particularly lovely feud.

...

But

...

times a present good evening.

...

over work.

...

Work has been the subject of

...

numerous studies.

...

pretty much all of which

...

agree that once you hit a certain level of quote and quote busy,

...

and keep pushing your body against the clock, you know, effectiveness

...

plummet along with your ability to focus

...

which is not to say that in order to accomplice stuff, you have to slack off as much as possible of your

...

flavor

...

there is a balance to be head

...

And it's one of the more

...

individual aspects of work that we are likely to encounter

...

the term busy. Indeed.

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is often is to mean

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working to today much to really say.

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anything and see what I'm doing and really be

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particularly

...

good or productive somehow, the word steady.

...

I think is perhaps

...

something to aspire to steady in time.

...

I think

...

yields

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serious results busy.

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is likely to give you a burnout up. It would be hard to find

...

for instance, a better example of steady than

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the great basis, Alan, Club.

...

If you don't know who he is, look at

...

phil Collins videos and other

...

associated

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live gigs, and you will find

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a guy with

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very long bushes be had playing very fancy.

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base lines.

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Is closing.

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on two thousand five hundred records,

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as a session musician, two thousand five hundred records, not

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songs conservatively. I think that is an album a week

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for as long as I've been alive.

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with maybe three months off but yeah for touring.

...

and the old break

...

So let's

...

find some definitions together. This is the creative farm.

...

and to help us define

...

steady.

...

and the relationship of free time

...

and work

...

It's my pleasure to welcome

...

Favorite Canadian.

...

Erica Ha, and a favorite American in Warsaw.

...

Paul Budget welcome to the creative farm.

...

Thank you, Race.

...

Thanks, Rob.

...

Let's

...

It's great to be back.

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it is it is great to be back after the summer holidays.

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Let's get into get into some farm work. There is some wheat waiting to be set

...

separated from the cha.

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for that, did you manage to have any time off in the last few weeks?

...

Well, I have to admit that I am falling into the

...

this is a very timely show because... Because I'm falling into the

...

zone of

...

busy and overwhelmed with

...

with deadlines at the moment and everything you're speaking to

...

as as a creative is

...

is what

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I know is so important to me and

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in my ability to to to create and and

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create some of my best work kids to

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you know, fine

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is isn't fighting that vaglio, and

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And as as you... As you said,

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the the subject matter for the day. I

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it was that lovely reminder to me that

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that I need holiday.

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creative people, you know,

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I i'm not quite sure what I've getting it was, I think what

...

And now creative people actually rather too often have troubles

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switching off. I would actually say it's likely

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that's it's not even remotely possible. There's your brain

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keep churning away with ideas even while

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sipping my ties at Raffle sp or was it

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was it singer post? It has been a while

...

Is it possible to switch off?

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If it is, I

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I don't know where that switches is.

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I've I've searched for it many times.

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and I've had no luck discovery

...

where where it might be hidden in my, in my gray under my arm are

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somewhere I can't see for sure.

...

or

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What is what is time off for you?

...

man.

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You know, I don't know how to answer that question.

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because I I don't know that I ever am.

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Okay. Hold that thought because this is what we're going to be

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spending the next fifty nine. Okay. Fifty four minutes of

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Erica, what about you?

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what is time off for you? Is there a definition?

...

Well, I I like that.

...

What is what is it that you long for?

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mm-mm

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I like that the fall... Having the same boat as full.

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It's... I mean, I I think for me,

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it's it's not necessarily... Like, because... Because I I

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And this is this is something that, you know,

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So as we have this conversation today, I am purposely forcing myself

...

to write the final bret report for a grab head

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I've been working on this last year. And I know

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that there are millions mil whole amount millions, but but

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tons more things than I'm wanting to build as a part of this front.

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However, I also know that there's times when I just need

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to get the paperwork done. I know that I have so

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filled what I said I would do for the grants. So those additional things that I

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that I'm gonna do. I need to at least take the pressure of having the paper.

...

me. So that's what I've been working on today.

...

They're not nice to have, but if you don't don't

...

send in the report. There will be questions when it comes

...

to applying for the next round. Right?

...

Well, the this is exactly it.

...

and there is a back coming up that that my team and I wish to

...

to apply for. So heads the need to get the paper done.

...

But I think I think for me, like that,

...

like that whole idea of time off

...

So it's reminding myself

...

that

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know I need to take days where

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even if there's those creative ideas running through my heads,

...

that I'm I'm not

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that that, you know, that I give myself that permission

...

to, you know, have a day enjoying music with

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friends going for a walk.

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you know, if if I'm if I'm in another city or another

...

part of the world, you know, going and having a bit of an event running for me, that's a whole other

...

story too since travel and up work you gets planned to my work.

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when we... When we can do that again. Right,

...

But but

...

And and I I think, you know, I think

...

I've started to think about that time off in different ways too

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especially since I I had my my

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various injuries that sort of have left me

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working in a bit of a different way. So

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for me, sometimes that time off is getting, you know, a nice

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chunk of work done in the morning, and then

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going in kind of having out

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lax days afternoon and playing

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you know, hook on what, you know, normal people might think

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is is part of the workday. Although, we

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Well, having hanging away would would, apparently, so they say,

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would have his writing wrapped up by about eleven Am m.

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and he would have problem for the from the the whiskey

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whiskey cabernet, and and there he would stay for the remainder of the day.

...

Yeah. I I think I've thought into having ways lifestyle.

...

No.

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And I think you'd be encouraging that be with

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your like evenings and and and worth that,

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me

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why I'm back on mornings and in Vancouver,

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Paul, is it a case of not doing anything

...

or maybe more a case of doing

...

something different. Is this something that you think Erica may be

...

alluding to his variety.

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the essence of

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I like that definition.

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that that that it's varieties.

...

It's

...

What

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I should say that that that's

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I'm my father. I have two two two children.

...

and

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It's

...

And the fabulous kids

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Thank you you. And, of course,

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you raising children is a lot of work.

...

But that aside,

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I I I I've really found that

...

surrendering myself into their

...

time and world when we do things together, like, go to the park or going for walk or

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going to do some activity

...

for example, I took them to a concert

...

their first

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adult rock concert.

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just the other day, we went to good

...

Who Was playing.

...

How you wanna Ali now? You know who she is?

...

I have no idea I'm about to find out if I feel.

...

Yes. If you Google air, I'm sure you'll find her, but she's a Ukrainian

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hip hop.

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singer

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an amazing amazing talent poets,

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You had me at

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rap kindergarten teacher.

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you had me at Acute Ukrainian and Hip hop.

...

And, yeah, she's it his

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she's very popular here of Poland.

...

And we discovered her. I don't remember how my I think my wife introduced me

...

to a video of hers, and she works with some amazing Ukrainian video artists.

...

and my kids just love it.

...

it's just very wild and creative. And so I took

...

them for the first time to go see her because she was in town, and she was performing at

...

coconut.

...

Mhmm.

...

And so if we were the I was the only dad there with

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a very young hip crowd there.

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having a grand old time. And, you know, I don't think I would have gone.

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if it wasn't for them.

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And I and really allowed me to surrender into

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enjoying this time with them.

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and being there, but being there through them,

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and through their

...

their way of seeing

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So you were a died, not as an artist.

...

was the artist lurking in the back.

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This is why I said I don't know how to answer you about being able to turn it off.

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because I think that the the motor is always running

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And but I do feel that in in

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like, in this situation when I can really get in get

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to life of and time with my kids. I

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I really do turn it off somehow. It's... I know it's back there somewhere coming

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But

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But here,

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it's I I

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I get out of myself because I'm able to try to I really concentrate and try to see

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see what's happening through their eyes.

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and

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and try to be present

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in a way that's that

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maybe I I can't be in other situations.

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And I think that is a kind of leisure

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In fact,

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Is it purposeful?

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to let go of yourself and and be

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be in

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the presence and others.

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Is it purposeful Do you think he's such a thing as

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purposeful as as as

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I'm going to put in some serious free time now so has to be

...

I don't know more productive later. This is a

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while you're... You know, you're relaxing, but you're not... But you're still kind of

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hanging on to this balloon called focus

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not necessarily squeezing it, but like holding it dinner,

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in your grasp.

...

Yeah.

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I didn't know I do do do you know this

...

there's there's this famous list

...

of of the Henry Miller

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apparently had posted over his typewriter

...

henry remembers list.

...

and he published it

...

Yeah.

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I'll love it. I'm going to. I'm going to look it up.

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It's

...

Henry Miller eleven commandments.

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Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course. Yes.

...

Yes.

...

Yeah.

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and what what one of them is

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if there's commandments maybe be the most important to keep humans.

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Yes.

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There's our humility about that.

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Yes.

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The humility was never his strongest suit, but

...

No. Not necessarily. And here's guys. But in General know, you know, you know, this this is

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how how we might might apply. Erica,

...

Is there such a thing as purposeful leisure? Do you doing indulge in

...

leisure or do you draw a line?

...

So actually,

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do. And this is... I think this has also being something that I've learned

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post all of my injury stuff.

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However, it doesn't necessarily mean that I switch

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that creative side off and often that

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purpose leisure will spark the creativity.

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So while the two you were talking just now, I was thinking of

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a previous grand application that I was putting in for.

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and

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I knew I had a deadline and I knew the deadline was that night.

...

but there was also

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relaxation yoga class.

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that that I was signed up for, and

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you know, I

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I fought against my instinct to just stick with the grad.

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and I took an hour to just focus

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on my breathing and movements.

...

And how glorious was that?

...

It was and all of a sudden, all of this

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like, you know, these answers for my parents. Just

...

started and flooding into my brain. And, yeah, I have to to

...

purposely, I think I I wrote down a note or two so that I would

...

forget that purposely that

...

return to focusing on my my breathing and on my movement and

...

And I know I certainly... Because I know right now, while I'm in this

...

really

...

is sort of busy next week of

...

of a lot of people wanting things for me.

...

I I've I've made the decision

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to

...

kate.

...

more of those moments, than

...

than than usual when I'm on such, you know,

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sort of such a large amount of deadlines, which was

...

actually, I actually think of this

...

this as as a bit of of leisure in my day. So when I saw your

...

your text. It's like, actually, what, was even before I saw your tech

...

side. I been wanted over on Fireside and I saw that you were... You were

...

you you had to create a farm scheduled. So

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back back from the holidays.

...

So I actually are a sweet before I saw your text

...

and I did that purposely, because I knew that, okay, even though I've got a

...

get all this done at the moment. I also need to take

...

these

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breaks for myself to do things that that I enjoy. And so

...

similarly, I went for a walk with my friends, Tristan yesterday.

...

and

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you know, I have house guests coming later this week and

...

and all those kind of things. And I I think

...

I mean, I I know even before,

...

you know, I had to kind of

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make sure I took those those breaks for for my hell.

...

as

...

you know, as a young writer I learned that that was how I actually got over

...

you know, any sort of writers blog.

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was if I ever had writers block, what I would do is

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I would stick my notebook in my my bag

...

because I think those were probably in the days before we we had all these little

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electronic devices that we're in our pockets all the time.

...

And you would go off on one of those walt Worldwide with.

...

walks.

...

Exactly.

...

go.

...

Exactly. Yeah. It's why it's why was born out of a trip

...

to trip in and build

...

office because every single day, I would be wandering the countryside and

...

as I did that,

...

you know,

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Oh, she popped from my brain.

...

I can't think of a more appropriate

...

appropriate plays far for for emmy.

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to be took to be created look

...

look her up people, emmy rogers, she is

...

I'm a fabulous character, and we will talk about Emmy and her journey.

...

in the Erica journey,

...

with and through in a

...

and I not serve before before too long. But let's let's let's

...

let's get back to these these definitions because it's actually quite

...

quite quite fascinating. It seems that we're kind of starting to patch on

...

on something. There was a

...

I just recalled. I mean, I actually have a stack of notes but I just recall just now.

...

And in the early early nineties, there was a

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a series, a rather wonderful series of programs called

...

something like commerce and spirituality in a changing economy.

...

And it was a panel of interesting

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Interesting people there's a artist was a business guy, scientist

...

etcetera, etcetera. There's a numb.

...

And they were talking about among other things. It was a whole series.

...

and that those are talking about that among other things they the definition of

...

play versus the definition.

...

of work and and as they were talking,

...

the business guy says, well I'm playing now. And the nonsense says I'm working.

...

These these definitions are not clear. Are they. I mean,

...

they are highly individual. Not only other individual, I think they also change with

...

with the seasons,

...

who wants to who wants to talk to that because this is this is, I think,

...

an important part of our little chat tonight.

...

the definitions, the shifting definitions of work

...

and play and leisure.

...

Anyone

...

Alright. Home dive then.

...

go on.

...

So

...

be drive.

...

Yeah. I I just got... I just had the

...

I got to be in the room. The last

...

two days, which means that I got to be in rehearsal.

...

and

...

that's been sort of a rare occurrence these days.

...

but we're in the process for a project I'm doing of replacing

...

a dancer

...

as a temporary replacement. So I had to prepare

...

the denser actress of these last two days.

...

we were in the room together and in the rehearsal room,

...

we we always

...

talk about the difference between craft

...

or work and playing

...

So when we're working on something,

...

it's a kind of grinding

...

it's hard things. It's it's details. It's

...

specific choreography, it's pronunciations,

...

it's

...

motivations. It's talking about context. It's

...

sharing research. All of this is work.

...

And

...

then the the actress

...

slowly learns and absorbs all of this work

...

and material, and then

...

she starts to

...

play it.

...

But in in this sense, it's more like she's working it out.

...

because the text still isn't quite memorized.

...

and there's still mistakes being made and they're still

...

etcetera, etcetera. But at a certain point,

...

when all the the work dissolves

...

and she starts to play.

...

and

...

And that to me is like the highest

...

level of the work.

...

because then the work is being integrated into something

...

that is that it's creation.

...

So it's taking hard work and turning it into some magical process where

...

it turns into a kind of free flowing

...

opposition and then we start saying, yeah. Play it, play it play it.

...

and

...

This is

...

and in play, we lose all sense of time and lose all sense of work.

...

And so now I know I'm saying this in the in the context

...

of of work because the whole thing, of course, is work. It's play and work working in the same thing.

...

but this is fresh in my mind.

...

because I just walked out of there

...

and it was such a pleasure to be back there and remember that.

...

that this is how work can play

...

balance in the creative act itself.

...

And then, of course, there's also other times where we take breaks where we go for walk.

...

we did that. We walked around the building three times for no reason whatsoever.

...

and didn't even talk

...

And somehow that also too was

...

a kind of leisure

...

and mixed into the process if I were to measure it through the day,

...

there was

...

a measure of work

...

a measure of leisure

...

And then when it

...

coalesce, there was a chance to play.

...

reminds me of this wonderful

...

description by joseph of Campbell of

...

of Indian musicians playing

...

she liken it to

...

to them sitting there

...

fit with the instruments.

...

and the music flowing underneath as a sort of a

...

a sub river and every once in a while, they

...

reach down and pull up a little handful of that river.

...

and create

...

a a sequence of of of of music

...

And that's that's kind of the sort of thing that you're

...

you're talking about or we... And we have took it talked about this this creative process.

...

on the creative farm in the past and I'm show will

...

keep coming back to it, but swinging right back around

...

swinging right back around too

...

this real complicated relationship of

...

work

...

and not work

...

is part of the problem.

...

i'm maybe part of the

...

context rather. Let's call it a problem.

...

our separation

...

of work

...

and leisure are considering

...

of those two as kind of opposites.

...

would it not be more helpful to see them as parts?

...

of a larger hole, a larger system of being

...

and of functioning

...

I think that's

...

I think that's ultimately something that

...

as

...

as an artist has a creative

...

you

...

you've got to to learn how to do because

...

for so many of us that that work in the creative art

...

in the creative fields

...

there's there's not a

...

workday day norm.

...

you don't go into the office.

...

on a on a daily basis and sort of

...

check in at nine A and check out at four or five Pm.

...

your your

...

your workday

...

changes every single day. And, you know, and and for so many of us,

...

are are workplaces long before Covid ever hit.

...

were homes,

...

So so with that,

...

you know, part of

...

you know, part of building towards that healthy lifestyle is

...

it is

...

is learning how to

...

to

...

to work within your your home

...

and

...

within within your your day, which, you know, sometimes

...

when creative inspiration hints it can be the middle of the night.

...

you have to... You have to learn to

...

to find that ability to to

...

to turn off when when you need to and

...

to enjoy the people around you as

...

as well as

...

as as the work because i let's face it too. I mean, if if you're

...

usually in the creative field

...

you know, your work has also your passion.

...

So

...

but

...

like,

...

like, when people talk about retiring, I can't

...

like it's that's it's not really something that falls into my my

...

people paid people do that. This is it. This is something they talk about.

...

there are

...

fascinating, fascinating

...

what concept.

...

clearly not you and I.

...

what I can't. This is the creative

...

My name is Ralph, and I'm here with

...

my two favorite humans

...

Erica Hard

...

coming in

...

from Canada where i where I you in in Toronto are you back com in in be

...

day

...

I I just just arrived to that com in B. Which

...

is why I just moved off the debt because I

...

relatively close the air airport here.

...

Very cool. Very cool. We want to

...

So I'm started thinking you about whether those airplanes are actually, you know,

...

Yeah.

...

coming through sound.

...

And and Paul Budget are coming and

...

from from warsaw, and we are discussing

...

the complicated relationship of

...

work

...

and and of of leslie, we're talking about life

...

the pandemic era rather a lot of a lot of what we have considered

...

purpose bustle.

...

prior to the pandemic has been shown to be belong more to the category of

...

wasteful pi. I'm sure time

...

in most meetings, for instance,

...

would have been better used if the participants meditating

...

instead or read a book.

...

maybe I just looked out the window.

...

how much

...

of this unconscious busy behavior.

...

have you removed from your lives over the last eighteen months people?

...

tell me, share.

...

I don't think I'm the the right person to answer this

...

one just because as I said,

...

my life... I mean, you know, if if if I'm working for a client

...

that wants me to come into the office. I I managed

...

that's one time week.

...

some

...

Well, that's a choice.

...

it is a choice, and and usually, you know, even if they think

...

it would be wonderful and more productive have me in the office. Say very quick

...

realized that I get

...

a lot more done when I'm when I'm working for my own space,

...

I I just find... It's... You know, and you don't have the extra distractions or

...

or... I mean, while,

...

while chatting with your colleagues is is is wonderful.

...

it's

...

I I find that what I'm in in that that more more focused

...

space at home I I tend to

...

tend to be be a lot more more productive.

...

Yeah. So

...

I think that's that's a that's a fairly common realization among

...

the the working professionals

...

out there

...

So so I'm curious did did either you

...

like,

...

was

...

was this, like... Being in creative fields was this last year,

...

a big shift for you and how you work in your daily life.

...

because because it wasn't a huge one for me, just because I already made that choice

...

and I'd been living kind of that lifestyle for at least the last ten years.

...

it's not longer.

...

Yeah. It's been kind of more like probably thirty

...

much the same, you know, working working

...

from

...

from home even when I was actually sharing studios and and

...

and doing

...

doing the sort of more

...

social creative work. Shall we say Paul with

...

theater, it's a little more complex, isn't it?

...

Yeah.

...

Well, my world got totally turned upside down by I covid

...

because, you know, the live arts were just completely shut down.

...

So there was no way to to go to rehearsal or

...

or to go even go see any live work

...

at all

...

and

...

I had to

...

if I... In order to keep making things and be creative, I I had this... I had to switch

...

to digital

...

which so many people did

...

during pandemic

...

So instead of people committing to the office, people stay home and work

...

remotely. And that's more or less what I did too. I

...

I decided to

...

switch into doing digital broadcasting

...

and with very limited

...

time to actually get people in the room and actually make stuff

...

also, lots of networking, lots of meetings online

...

my life became much more international

...

I started

...

reconnecting with a lot of people from my past, but also

...

from all of the world that I never met before.

...

But generally speaking,

...

it

...

my life was kind of sandwiched in between

...

the kids. So

...

getting them to school in the morning when schools were still when schools were open,

...

which they have been for a long time here now.

...

So then I've got this this morning in afternoon, and then

...

I have to go pick them up in the afternoon.

...

So I've got that window there

...

And that's where I've had to concentrate my time and I work from home.

...

So

...

know that it's interesting when you when you dropped this subject to today

...

like

...

Mhmm. What is that thing?

...

Is that when does that actually happen?

...

What is that?

...

You know, of course, oh, all of this all of this needs to be viewed

...

through the lens of individual agency having

...

having the ability

...

to make decisions about how we allocate

...

the twenty four hours we owe

...

given... So maybe

...

Here's a question. Should just

...

thrive for agency above

...

or else and other choices will come along.

...

as result of it.

...

Oh, that's a hard one.

...

So so agency in what sense

...

Well,

...

had the ability to make decisions to to to to do, you know,

...

have bears corpus. You know?

...

Okay. I'm gonna take advantage of that one just to do a little

...

plug out. They are both because actually with what Paul is

...

do it.

...

just saying, I think it might be sort of

...

a useful look for him right now, but also,

...

This is a collective farm. You know, all voices are welcome.

...

you know, our our our audience... Yeah, our audience

...

members as well. But

...

So when we're talking agency, we're talking agency for creative.

...

there is this wonderful grad moment.

...

and it is a worldwide rat.

...

and it is specifically

...

to make things, you know, to give creative more

...

more agency to to give them

...

the ability to to to to create

...

create their their own works and follow their passions and

...

hopefully, at the end of the day to actually

...

build

...

build a more

...

equitable future for themselves. So it's it's

...

definitely not the answer

...

to all of artists

...

problems are issues at the, like, you know, financial finance. So, like,

...

it's it it's not gonna fall

...

financially, all of your creative laws.

...

Oh, don't I don't I don't think that's so that's a question that will that

...

ever go away.

...

No. No.

...

but it is moving in that direction. And so this is the web monetization. So

...

standard, which I think I've mentioned before. But

...

You have any... Your been you've been

...

talking about it Blasphemy on twitter at Erica Hard.

...

Yes. Yes. So ridiculous about but so they've actually

...

got this... So they've got... Basically, their second open call

...

foreground grab proposals that is happening right now.

...

the deadline is

...

September,

...

twenty second, which is a Wednesday. I believe the deadline isn't

...

time.

...

on September twenty seconds, they are

...

So there's a bit of... There's a bit of time

...

Yeah. And they're in, like, a really... Like, it's the community that I

...

being kind of learning about and building in for this last year.

...

they're an awesome awesome community. And

...

to find out how to apply you go to grant for the web.

...

dot

...

fork, I believe. And backslash apply

...

And you as a

...

create a person you just need to think about it slightly creatively because the way

...

the language is on the apply page.

...

it it doesn't really sound like it's for creative projects. But

...

there is definitely... That is one of their calls

...

Get busy.

...

is to build up in artistic communities to build up and

...

and and share in those places. And there's some some really wonderful projects

...

that came out of

...

last year in that bent, one called Ballet is rising.

...

which was basically shining a spotlight like

...

on answers and specifically dancers that

...

that

...

it that one has not traditionally seen

...

in in the performance spaces, like,

...

in in the sort of that ballet genre. And so

...

sharing their stories. There's this

...

other woman

...

Her name's Brianna Stewart.

...

and she's based in Belgium at the moment. And she she sort of was doing

...

you know, a series called creative living for dancers and to

...

deaths there's all about web monetization. And so

...

call. This is, like, perfect for those different digital projects that

...

that you're... That you're looking into and

...

And then it's just a really, really wonderful group of

...

people to be building with that are so supportive of each other.

...

We'll need to we'll it to

...

circle back around to the whole area of digital

...

how that has progressed.

...

last

...

Well, however a many months since we talked about this

...

because, of course, it is moving at a rate of nuts

...

and there are some very interesting specifics coming out of

...

all those different spaces.

...

Now this is this is a a social

...

program, and I'd love to have some

...

some voices coming and come in and and throw interesting ideas into the pot.

...

So when when the inspiration strikes you, please,

...

do wave in our general direction and and

...

we'll be sure to see it and and throw the microphone at you.

...

We're talking. We are talking about

...

than the the the the relationship of work

...

and leisure and

...

this takes me back not that around that old, but I have a fan of veteran

...

in nineteen thirty five, burton Russell published his

...

famous essay called in praise of its. If you haven't,

...

read it, please do because it's actually quite fun. It's

...

it's better a product of its own time, Of course, but

...

and and and and timeless

...

and to a degree for shadows, bucky is right later thinking on

...

exactly how much work we should be doing.

...

Let me let me

...

I read that quick quote.

...

because it is sort of apt

...

apt to to what we're talking about in a world.

...

no one is compelled to work.

...

more than four hours a day, Every person possessed of scientific

...

curiosity will be able to indulge it and

...

painter will be able to paint without starving.

...

however excellent his pictures may be. That writers will not be obliged to draw

...

mentioned to themselves by sensational pod boilers.

...

acquiring the economic independence needed from monumental works for which

...

well time

...

at last comes

...

they will have lost the taste and capacity, men,

...

who and the professional work have become interested at in some phase of economic

...

or government won't be able to develop their ideas without

...

the academic detachment that makes the work of university economic economists

...

often seem lacking in the reality.

...

medical men will have the time to learn about the progress of medicine teachers will not be

...

exists struggling to teach by retained methods.

...

things which I learned in the years, which may

...

in the interval have

...

be improved to be intro. So so really other than adding women

...

that this discourse, of course,

...

how do you feel about that image of the world people?

...

but it's a vision... A utopian vision for sure.

...

and

...

I think I also re reflective of a certain

...

intellectual tasks idea of.

...

But

...

But I do have to say that

...

where it's... One of the reasons I

...

I left New York.

...

was precisely because of this.

...

written large.

...

it gotten to the point where I had to do so much

...

corporate work, basically, in order just to pay my bills.

...

that

...

I no longer had time

...

in my life to do the work I wanted to do. It just wasn't possible.

...

I was too tired.

...

And

...

and

...

that's a story that's you know well... Well well well traveled by many many many many artists

...

Of course,

...

and thinkers and scientists. This is you just... You just simply don't have

...

enough time

...

left after taking care of the rent and your daily bread.

...

And I think that

...

that's

...

then a a story throughout human history of so many great

...

brilliant people who just

...

never had the time

...

to actually

...

exercise it, and so who has the time?

...

and

...

Well John,

...

kings that by

...

this was like in the thirties. He thought that by the middle of of the century

...

we'd be enjoying a fifteen week. What happened?

...

Yeah. What happened?

...

Yeah.

...

Yeah.

...

Of course, he did also he didn't also say that

...

that he was somewhat skeptical as to

...

ability

...

to to look forward to the age of leisure.

...

and of abundance without dread

...

having been trained.

...

for such a long time to strive and not to

...

Not to enjoy perhaps that's what

...

That's what the issue has been. So now people

...

razor radio arms.

...

you know, general direction. The microphone is

...

in my hot hand, and I will... I will take a take a good swing and throw it.

...

Further. If you if you do,

...

But these ideas are not these areas are not new, Of course. I mean

...

you go we go back to to to ancient Greece and and

...

Chap back then had fairly staunch ideas about how much work

...

one or two,

...

one engage, And, of course, they did have the

...

advantage of of having slaves to do all the other the stuff that

...

that

...

really was was

...

beneath the the the

...

where the attention. But we

...

continue to struggle with this

...

with it's it's sort a weird dance in a way. We're not happy when

...

we burnt out. We are not happy

...

when we're totally slack off. Well, for too long anyway,

...

what does it take?

...

to find the sweet spot. Is there a sweet spot?

...

does change.

...

to the change with age or with the season.

...

How does that work?

...

an interesting question.

...

I I do think it changes. I think it changes with with

...

where you at in your life with with what else is going on in your world that a given them time

...

I know for me, like, you know,

...

that that sweet spot was with

...

definitely different pre my car accident than it is now.

...

I I used to, like... And and I actually think it's

...

in this way because I used to

...

think that

...

I used to... I used to sort of fall into the trap of taking pride

...

in working ridiculously long days, and and and being able to

...

pull that off and pull off.

...

all night.

...

two

...

at two,

...

It's

...

it's... Yeah.

...

So so i mean it

...

Is it something to do with with maybe

...

coming to a stage in your life when you

...

start to ask yourself questions about relative importance of things.

...

Yeah. I think this that.

...

I I I also, like, mean part of this

...

like, post accident journey for me too is also taught me the importance of about.

...

choosing healthy people to work with.

...

so that, you know... And I I've actually seen our creative project

...

blossom since then. And I think it's because

...

I'm specifically choosing

...

that the people that I work with are people that I trust.

...

I... It's also sort of taught me to

...

to focus on the things that are

...

actually valuable to us.

...

and that we really want our passionate about

...

as opposed to

...

prior to them where

...

we'd have other people sort of try to tell if

...

which direction to go in and mold us and what they thought we should be creating.

...

I know that's, like, certainly a trap that I fell into with

...

with with Emmy, especially when

...

there was a Canadian broadcaster that wanted to turn her into a

...

a television series. Well, was supposed to be a television series about

...

you know,

...

her writer. But Eddie anyhow it was it was it was very

...

you know, convoluted and everything like that. But it

...

it kind of pushed it pushed me with her into a stage that

...

rather than being being the tease and being sl.

...

I I said of look back on and, I think was a little bit more

...

trash and and not kind of that

...

you know, that

...

sort of baldi, say it as you see it sort of with women that I

...

originally created with her.

...

So whereas is where's is now?

...

I mean, you're not... It it's interesting because it's, you know, I'm still having

...

having the, like, you know,

...

the struggles to find, you know, the financial fit

...

which is what got me into the whole sustainable funding series.

...

for our different projects.

...

what we are creating, I am so much more proud of. And I actually think that

...

I feel like it's gonna be success.

...

full and it's gonna be successful because

...

because, you know,

...

because we're not afraid to say what our values

...

are with it any longer, and we're not afraid to stand by those values and

...

so as we we build with, like, you know, partners, whether they're

...

tourism and boards or parks or or people like that.

...

they know what they're getting into with us. And and it's

...

it's interesting because, like, unlike that broadcast market, I I found with those people

...

because they see what we've been creating.

...

they like what we've been creating. They're they're actually more at

...

to be able to give me

...

to creative a freedom to do it.

...

the way I see fit as opposed to

...

that market that almost seems to need to chase after the car wreck.

...

in order for what they think it to be good entertainment.

...

seems seems that

...

yet. Again, within forty, fifteen minutes with

...

we've come up the against questions of

...

of definition of what we consider do,

...

versus what we see as your.

...

pleasure versus meaning

...

This is this is a

...

And of course, is this is a a an an endless river, but

...

Let's look at it in this context because

...

you know, research has demonstrated that

...

we get more pleasure

...

out of meaning rather than

...

the other way around

...

if you allow, allow me in over simplification. So

...

should are leisure

...

also be meaningful must our leisure.

...

also be meaningful.

...

if we make meaning

...

we make well being,

...

Right. So how do we find

...

this balance of

...

of creating a space where we can actually

...

relax chill out, take some time out, but it doesn't actually

...

land us in the land of the of the the meaningless

...

but actually continues to

...

somehow push along that that journey that you were just talking about.

...

Erica of of selection and of choice and of picking

...

the right direction at the right time, whatever, whatever feels the right direction at the right

...

How do we find?

...

that balance bit between

...

pleasure and meaning

...

Well, I... Maybe just to refund on what Erica was just talking about,

...

know that that when you

...

because it it sounds like you you you went through pretty terrifying car accident and

...

Not one.

...

that's a

...

Yeah. That's a that's a

...

and then enormous

...

alarm in one's life it it also has a lot of positives because if you

...

can survive it because it it it does

...

keep this constant reminder in your life and and focus about

...

what matters. And I I often find that in

...

in in

...

in life. It's it the the the

...

one of the biggest challenges is is this of entropy, which

...

keeps into your life, and it becomes harder and harder to differentiate.

...

What's

...

meaningful and important and what's not.

...

And it's so always a struggle to to keep this in focus.

...

and, of course, you know, our our imminent extinction

...

we somehow put it out, and we wanna watch that, but somehow that

...

that force that say death

...

is is is this it awakens you

...

into life and suddenly, you can see quite clearly

...

what is meaningful and what isn't?

...

It's the it's the ultimate purpose of the grim reaper. He is gives your his

...

constant companion. He keeps reminding you of these things that does he not

...

He does. And I I just had a

...

recent experience which I wanted to share with you because I think it's it really refreshed

...

bio own sense of keeping things

...

focused on what's meaningful what's not.

...

I have a a performance that was invited to a festival in in Germany.

...

in Cologne this summer.

...

and it's the first time we've done done the piece in English, and so I was very excited and

...

I decided I was gonna try to bundle this into a little family holidays.

...

so I packed the kids in my wife and

...

and things in the car and we drove from boson

...

which is in the West of Poland.

...

all the way to Clones, which is in the Western of Germany.

...

And this it was supposed to be about an eight hour

...

Yeah. It's not

...

drive.

...

And so

...

we

...

I know I've done it. It's not

...

Mhmm

...

it's not... But we... You know, Google Maps said it was

...

And so off we went, and the the way was was

...

was relatively easy or driving down the auto bond.

...

and

...

about

...

two hours from Cologne

...

it started to rain.

...

And really

...

on the biblical level.

...

it was

...

pouring, and it was raining so hard.

...

that

...

all the traffic had to slow down because we

...

it was raining so hard that there was no visibility

...

So this these were some of those range that that

...

those those towns in in in Germany and and and and Belgium.

...

Yeah.

...

In fact, it was exactly that storm.

...

so that's a once and a hundred year brainstorm and

...

I just drove dry drove right into it.

...

and I drove through the worst band of it.

...

for almost three hours.

...

The trees are falling. The auto was flooding

...

when we went under bridges, there were sometimes in almost a meter of water

...

And... But the whole time I was driving. Of course, I don't I didn't

...

I had no idea what was happening.

...

There was no alarm alert on the radio

...

And even if there was, I probably wouldn't have understood it. This is in German.

...

and we drove through this whole day lose.

...

and I was very nervous because i thought why you, this is

...

extremely intense situation, but I kept thinking was it's gonna

...

stop. It can't keep branding like this.

...

it wasn't until we got to Cologne and when we got there it

...

miraculously the rain.

...

The next day, I went out for a walk

...

and I went down to the rhine, and the rhyme was almost at flood level.

...

Full.

...

and it was brown.

...

and full of trees, whole trees.

...

It was insane. I it was a quite remarkable thing to

...

see the whole river from across was just one tree after the next and lots of other debris.

...

And

...

I

...

went and visited some friends, and that was the first time I found out what happened.

...

that, you know, a thousand people were missing and that many villages in the

...

in the immediate vicinity and been completely destroyed.

...

and

...

I

...

I haven't been able to shake this experience since.

...

partly the the oblivious

...

that I was driving through basically a

...

a natural disaster

...

I'm I'm I'm natural disaster to be low precise.

...

unnatural disaster, a product of our global warming and

...

a man made disaster at the end of the day. And but it it

...

and to know that my kids were there, and my whole family was there and i and

...

And

...

somehow I all of us had been

...

at some considerable risk.

...

and I I have not been able to shake that since.

...

And I think it's it's really helped me focused not only on

...

what is meaningful

...

And I I can tell you that you can take great pleasure

...

and find great meaning. I mean

...

doing the dishes after you go through something like that.

...

that dream dishes, such a chore, can turn into

...

a quite meaningful experience in a time of contemplation.

...

and

...

And I do think that that may be

...

it doesn't sound like the most pleasant of things, but

...

that I think we need

...

these

...

situations of

...

either peril or

...

suffering or some other kind of

...

confrontation with

...

the really the worst and most terrible things that can happen

...

in order to find meaning

...

I think without it, we become dull, and we become lazy, and we lose sight

...

of what really counts.

...

yet.

...

and

...

you're speaking right now to

...

like,

...

Well,

...

Some some of the things that I've reflected on since since

...

since my two car accidents. But... But also,

...

So, like, I had

...

pretty crappy summer two summers ago where I was

...

I was getting getting bullied in my academic program.

...

And it was, unfortunately, that's a flare up

...

a thing that players up my my health since some

...

since since everything's happened to me,

...

like, post the car accidents. But then, you know, my mom also been diagnosed with can't

...

sarah. And so it had left me in the state where I was feeling

...

completely shattered completely broken.

...

and and was quite depressed.

...

And so

...

I decided I was

...

you know, to go back to this I month through treatment. So I decided to to

...

to drive from Vancouver to to Ontario, which is

...

is is this, you know, not a small drive.

...

It's a it's a fair trap here.

...

it is a fair trip. And I think it was a

...

day

...

they

...

three into my journey.

...

I I said of woke up in the rockies, and I done something to my wrist

...

so it was swollen up to the size of

...

Probably, you know,

...

an eight pot. And so I started my day off

...

by visiting the

...

the clinic in the middle of the rockies that was

...

sort of slightly dodgy.

...

and

...

but they were the great specialists in in risks

...

wrist a injuries right?

...

yes. Yes. They did take it actually,

...

set me on the pathway about text getting fixed. But

...

as I as I continued on that day,

...

I Can't

...

I ended up in this, like, you know, sort a twenty four hour period where

...

I had all these sort of

...

almost, you know, moment

...

that that that

...

that that could have

...

ended up in my bath.

...

also,

...

seem to be quite tied to

...

instead of

...

you know, a natural and

...

indigenous spirituality where

...

I was

...

at

...

had smashed in buffalo jump

...

which is where the the first name

...

of Alberta used to drive the buffalo off the the the cliffs

...

in their sort of

...

Mhmm. Mhmm.

...

yearly harvest, and I got locked

...

on top the museum with my cat.

...

the best of an area where there's big sides for Cougar everywhere.

...

and we're

...

basically.

...

the only way down the cliff with museum, and the museum had

...

lost stores that they realizing that we were still out there.

...

So as I'm sort of sitting there in trying to, like, you know,

...

wonder whether I'll survive the cold for the diet and whether, you know,

...

Ella will attract the.

...

And I'm, you know, trying desperately to get

...

somebody to notice me as I wave in front of the the video camera, and then

...

And then eventually, like, you know, I'm sort of shouting down to try and get somebody's the tenth

...

from the parking lot below. And wondering if I can scale about the building.

...

any anyhow, that was that was sort of

...

you know, disaster number one, followed

...

Mean, luckily, I... If somebody in the parking lot did eventually hear me and went back into the

...

museum to get somebody to rescue me. But then the the

...

you know, later that night as we're... We we actually ended up camping in another

...

spiritual spot for the first nations people

...

being writing on stone provincial park, which it's

...

anybody ever gets the opportunity to go there, the place is incredible.

...

still with who news

...

and and pet and, you there's just

...

something magical about the space. But, you know,

...

anyhow,

...

we we did have another Cougar counter as web landed dead base

...

on our tent to the middle of the night.

...

I've I've had Cougar encounters though since I was was

...

ten years old. And when I met one in my grandmother's garden and and

...

I I

...

Maybe these guys just want to be your friends, you know?

...

Well, I actually think I think there is something to that

...

Well, you know, you're yes.

...

because cats are always attracted to me, and

...

And at the age of ten, when I would have being sued in the city for the cougar, the sugar just seemed to wanna

...

stare at me.

...

So and then followed by the next

...

stay as I, you know, accidentally, apparently, when you're driving through real,

...

Canada you should not use

...

your Google baths to decide on which direction to go

...

to get to your, you know, those the most direct roots.

...

Now you're lucky to end up in the in an a mark

...

unmarked lake or something

...

Well, the rural rhoads in Alberta, which is what it

...

put me on to have, like, the slate

...

gravel through the whole rhoads that when you end up driving through a rain

...

storm.

...

it catches your tires, and it's like, you know, driving on black ice.

...

but worse because, you know how you go to save yourself when you're driving in black

...

ice.

...

doesn't necessarily work in the gravel.

...

No.

...

doesn't work.

...

Oh, no. So I had this moment, you know,

...

where where the correspond and and the, you know,

...

we we we ended up inside of the road, and I ended up having to

...

call a

...

you know, a tow truck. And as

...

as that was, like happening

...

I

...

I'm sitting there, you know, in the middle of nowhere.

...

waiting for a tow truck with my phone battery die.

...

Oh big better. That's we show up.

...

and it... You know, and making sure, you know, asking, she was okay in the car.

...

And it all of a sudden hits me. I'm like,

...

I'm okay.

...

and

...

I'm alive, and I'm okay. And

...

all of that depression that I've been

...

sort of hadn't been able to shake and

...

was, like, kind of having

...

so much

...

trouble sort of

...

pulling myself out of

...

it was gone.

...

You know, your to have just.

...

Not that I recommend that people like

...

Well, you know, these these things that there thirteen. They i right a

...

passage. There there is a long tradition of those things. You know,

...

you to have just given me an idea an idea for another

...

for another show, something along the lines of close calls,

...

And I think we'll need to do it soon because

...

it feels like it could be a lot of fun.

...

to finish up on the perhaps somewhat what more

...

I don't know.

...

somewhat safer note

...

I'd like to take you on a little walk

...

in the woods

...

And let's let's see how this reflects in this

...

question of of defining leisure versus

...

Not leisure.

...

Because as we know, the Japanese have

...

a very

...

broad spectrum are very useful and beautiful concepts to do with

...

being with nature and also

...

examining

...

adventures in the ways that you've just described.

...

one of those concepts is is Shin Yo.

...

but you may or may not have

...

heard about it's a way of being in nature that allows you to

...

you immerse

...

in your surroundings.

...

it translates literally as forest bathing.

...

You become

...

you immersed in the sounds in the smells.

...

in the sights of of the forest.

...

How does that relate?

...

to our idea of pleasure. Is that leisure?

...

or is it something else?

...

Well, I I think for me,

...

I I mean, I know forrest saving has become incredibly popular, but for me,

...

that was

...

It it's what we did as Parks natural.

...

I I think

...

I like that people have adopted, like, you know,

...

of have bought into the whole notion of going for a bathing and

...

not to relax in the woods. I don't like the

...

economic aspect that's come with it with like sort of

...

almost

...

using it to

...

get a lot

...

more, like, paying, fifteen fifty bucks and I'll and I'll and I'll show you how to do it properly.

...

Yeah. Because, I mean, you know, it's a

...

natural. Those were the free parks programs that we did with people was

...

connecting them with nature. You go back to reading Joseph Cornell, but

...

son on

...

you know,

...

which I think are actually called connecting with nature.

...

Yes.

...

or or no. They're sharing the joy joy of nature

...

But

...

it's

...

I think

...

Is that leisure?

...

Well, for me, for me, it's spirituality. Actually, if

...

that that's that's my spirituality. That's

...

where where I go to to get peace that's where I go to get

...

stored. I

...

It it's it's why I I really connect

...

with

...

sort of, you know, the traditional

...

beliefs of a lot of our personalities nations here in Canada is because their spiritual

...

quality is based around that. It's probably why as a kid

...

I I connected with, you know, some of the stories from, you know, the celtic

...

and droids because

...

you know, a lot of that was was, again, was nature based. It was

...

it was where

...

The trees and the rock

...

and the valleys are be miraculous beings. Right?

...

Yeah. And so in and in the

...

sort of in in the first nations,

...

culture here on on the West Coast of

...

British Columbia. They call the

...

the cedar treated the tree of life. And so the

...

the belief is because you you can say could get

...

everything that they needed to live from the cedar tree

...

from, like, housing to

...

transportation to clothing

...

to food to medicine.

...

Yeah. Absolutely.

...

Perfume. Don't. Don't forget Perfume.

...

And so so the belief is that it

...

you lean with your back to get

...

the the cedar tree that

...

that's the

...

the theaters energy will will we'll

...

will flow into you. And

...

I know that every single time I do that,

...

I feel restored. It it it feels good.

...

And I'm sure that if you if you hooked up a few electrodes and maybe a

...

you know, pulse and and and

...

meter on your on your

...

finger and the kind all those little things they would actually show

...

in real numbers that

...

that this thing is is good for you.

...

Pull

...

Just to wrap up How do you

...

communion with nature.

...

in the city.

...

Well, I am a a

...

rather passionate practitioner of

...

the the

...

a very well established tradition here in Poland, which is the the jo

...

community.

...

which is the the allotment Right?

...

Yes. So these are city, allotment gardens.

...

and there's there's many of them in worse off.

...

all of the every district house at least one

...

This is a peculiar European institution not

...

not saying very often on the other side of the pond.

...

True. And I I I'd actually never

...

experienced it in the United States. I I'm not even sure that it exists.

...

it might somewhere

...

but here, it's it's quite established institution in all

...

the big cities. So it's also

...

I know it's it's very

...

very popular in Germany. Basically what it is is is a very large piece of land

...

in different districts in the city, which is divided up into small

...

lot

...

usually

...

between

...

They're not they're not even quarter because they

...

an eight of an acre right?

...

more or less.

...

it's a bit more or less. It's something like the in between three hundreds

...

square meters and five hundred square meters.

...

that's usually the standard size. Sometimes they're bigger.

...

I happen to have one that's bigger, but that's another story.

...

how that happened. But

...

So

...

the

...

they're all just one after the next

...

so there's like this whole community of people who are there

...

working on their gardens. It tends to be, of course,

...

dominated by retired people

...

But pandemic has altered that equation.

...

And, for example, in my apartment,

...

There were quite a quite a few of the gardens had fallen into disappears

...

had died and no one else took them and so they were

...

like,

...

you know, wilderness with, you know, destroyed buildings,

...

And so there was there were a lot of places available and during the pandemic,

...

demand for these just skyrocketed it.

...

because it's especially doing a lockdown, there it was

...

suddenly essential that you had a place to go besides your apartment.

...

And so a lot of young people moved in, and now the the... It's actually

...

quite much much more diverse community that's that's in there now.

...

But for me, I I

...

of course, this is a kind of work because having a garden has a lot of work.

...

is a lot of cutting of grass and

...

weeding and pruning. And, of course, I always I will

...

have a vegetable garden

...

and that's a whole

...

tremendous amount of work to maintain and keep going. But the this is absolutely a

...

pleasure,

...

and it's a kind of work which that and pleasure which comes

...

from digging and doing this kind of manual labor

...

that I find enormously rewarding, and I would say that

...

in terms of my life.

...

This is the

...

this is my leisure activity. It's it's this gel cutting thing. And

...

It's it's funny because I'm surrounded by very

...

old people all people around you're quite old.

...

And I I know that I must be some strange, like,

...

alien there, the guy from America who's taken up

...

being a

...

john Soviets, but

...

Yeah. This is this is for me where I find

...

my connection to nature

...

you can't escape the city. You can hear the traffic in the distance.

...

and in my gardens, you can see a giant smokes stack from one of the coal fired

...

power plants and more, so it's kind destroys the whole image, But nevertheless,

...

there's there's so much nature there there's birds and insects and

...

and I I'm

...

also spend a lot of time my kids there, and it's a

...

one of those two times when

...

can just let them run loose and

...

and they

...

they disappear I and they get caught up in all of the

...

macro and micro elements that are part of the of of the garden

...

to to

...

So the the line the line between

...

work and leisure

...

yet to

...

really disappears

...

Yeah.

...

to bring that full circle back to the beginning of our discussion.

...

what what Paul's talking about there to

...

is

...

that's the kind of of

...

work slash leisure that as a creative

...

I know is something that that and sparks that

...

creativity to start flowing again.

...

I I purposely keep

...

I... It was so nice when my head of backyard, but I don't have a backyard right now, but I have

...

you know, two decks that are covered in pots because

...

one of the things when I need sort of a leisure

...

like a creativity sparking break is to go and garden to go in

...

and stick my hands in in in the dirt and and to dig,

...

And and so I actually think that, you know, going back

...

to when you were talking about how, you know, it was a certain social class

...

earlier.

...

is able to, you know, because they didn't have to worry about

...

sort of the everyday work was able to really focus on

...

on on on creative endeavors. I actually think it's

...

you know,

...

some of that work that everyday work is actually

...

that that's that's that's sometimes my escape in leisure, and that

...

that's that's that's what sparks and helps

...

feel my my creativity have to be just like, you know, taking a break

...

to to cook a proper meal and to

...

I I'd much rather be the one making that meal.

...

then then then just have it delivered to me on on my plate, and I... And I

...

I would suspect with with your social cooking club, but you'd be

...

of the same boat there.

...

I this and we need to

...

Yes. We do.

...

we need to revive that particular activity.

...

if if you don't know what we're talking about, you will find out

...

before to long people because the social cooking glove will come back

...

mhmm.

...

It's been

...

in a sort of an extended hiatus just

...

for reasons many and and barriers

...

but it is coming back as a number of

...

other shows and other ideas

...

Let's wrap this up for me. We can continue till midnight, but let's

...

disrupt this up because

...

you know?

...

Time is a passing. I think

...

Erica, and poor.

...

for joining me on the creative farm.

...

Again, as they often do,

...

on Monday nights, Monday nineteen in Europe.

...

afternoons on the discussed and sort of

...

and The morning is

...

on the west coast,

...

We'll do this again next Monday. And in the meantime, thank you.

...

and have a very good night.

...

Thank you, Ray.

...

let's always we've great grand to to to be here and chatting with you and Paul.

...

and Adrian when he's here,

...

Oh, yes. I This coming back next week.

...

Excellent.

...

Thanks so. Thanks so much, Ralph the pleasure. Good thank you.

...

Have a good night.

...

i.

Fortune Cookie