The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

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Transcript

...

Good evening.

...

we're all tired.

...

physically and mentally, let's let's admit it.

...

We are worn down

...

by the constant need to adapt.

...

much faster than we ever had been

...

humans, of course,

...

built toe.

...

that

...

So it's not that we're having to adapt the

...

exhausting. It's how fast

...

we're needing to do it.

...

it's clear that we're going to have to continue to adapt

...

just as fast, yes as the

...

pandemic

...

off and the science keeps pushing to find remedies, and then

...

then there is

...

the wave that's clearly

...

begun to crash us the effects of climate change.

...

It doesn't really matter whether you believe.

...

the nature of climate change.

...

clue, by the way, it is

...

we are causing it. The fact is that

...

a lot more adaptation.

...

is going to be required

...

a lot faster.

...

then we have ever had to accomplice

...

Oh, and and and the job of adapting quickly is probably

...

never going to be done.

...

How is that photo?

...

for a starter. Now on the Bohr global

...

studio, which is where we are

...

tonight on the Global studio, we often

...

focus on how the thinking

...

and the approaches of artists

...

may point the way

...

towards a broader understanding of a of a given issue.

...

artists, of course,

...

that very particular group of humans

...

who don't take

...

change. That a discrete phenomenon.

...

imposed from the outside does it were, but rather see it.

...

as a permanent strand

...

in the fabric of reality. So adapting to change is what artists

...

dough

...

as a matter of a daily practice.

...

What's more I would

...

that

...

there be no art without change.

...

so to help us and pick some of those

...

approaches and some of that thinking

...

We have in the Glob studio today or tonight paul,

...

theater and the film director coming to us from

...

or so by way of New York City by way.

...

of San Francisco, Paul. Welcome.

...

to the Bohr global studio.

...

again,

...

Thanks, Ralph.

...

have to be here.

...

A lot has happened since we last

...

spoke here over a year ago when

...

the pandemic had only just settled into our lives.

...

and the world's artists and musicians and so on.

...

were adjusting to this new paradigm, How have you fed?

...

since then,

...

Yeah.

...

I'd say

...

up and down very up and down,

...

on on the downside,

...

I

...

was more or less unable to do anything in the live arts.

...

from most of this entire time.

...

during the lockdown and then string generally in the pandemic

...

And I think that's been

...

been true for for most practitioners in the live arts until maybe the last

...

few months.

...

at least in Europe. So

...

that was a pretty radical change because that's what I do.

...

i

...

up until then, I have been

...

fundamentally a theater director working in intimate small spaces,

...

and that just was not possible.

...

So

...

on the,

...

like, so many of us in the in the theater arts, we migrated

...

into digital broadcasting.

...

and

...

that really opened up an enormous

...

say horizon of possibilities

...

for me. It also led me into starting to work in film.

...

But mostly, mostly the image in that broadcasting

...

And I have to say that

...

This has been enormously fruitful time for me.

...

it's really changed up my entire perspective loan

...

on what live arts is, what my own practice is.

...

where my interests lie.

...

and so without the catalyst,

...

of

...

the pandemic. I I I feel I may not have had the

...

this really remarkable time of growth that next

...

exploration that I've been able to enjoy, despite all the difficulties and

...

and certainly hardships of

...

pandemic

...

so

...

The title of this episode is, of course,

...

spoken with tongue deep in cheek.

...

limit of adaptability. We don't know where the limits of at the

...

stability lie or even if there are any I mean, we'll grow gills if we

...

after it'll will just take some time. But how do you adapt?

...

quickly

...

as an artist, a professional as a father

...

Is it more more or less a conscious process?

...

I need to do this. So this

...

happens all that that just doesn't happen.

...

or is it more a case of watching

...

and and reacting

...

Well,

...

I I think what I can... What I can say is is

...

is that in my own practice. So

...

maybe I'll bring you in bring you into that a little bit and

...

please.

...

understand how how how changed in fact is just

...

a constant and a given

...

and a necessary ingredient in the process.

...

So

...

if I'm coming into a a project,

...

in the past, I might have had a text

...

So I have a text to work with and this is what I'm going to

...

to direct and bring to life in the theater.

...

and then I assemble a team of actors and designers

...

and

...

we set to work trying to eliminate

...

and find a way into

...

the text, but at least we have the text.

...

And that's one way that and that's to... I would say the general way that a lot of

...

especially English language data works.

...

play and the text or sort of first

...

and then the director and the

...

the actors come next.

...

But

...

I don't really work that way anymore.

...

now I work more in what's called advising.

...

So

...

I will come to the process with a team of artist

...

usually a designer and a chore

...

or some other

...

creative artist.

...

and we will have an idea for a project, and then we go into the room

...

with a group of performers, and we basically invented it.

...

And in this situation,

...

change.

...

where you started from and what you end up with.

...

is so radically different.

...

that all you're doing is working and change. And in fact, you invite change,

...

you develop a whole set of tools

...

and ways of seeing that are based entirely on uncertainty.

...

on

...

accepting the fact that you don't know where this is going.

...

you barely have any control if

...

or or perhaps none that all on really where it's going.

...

But within that,

...

it forces you into a mindset where you have to really

...

become almost ruthless in the kinds of choices that you make.

...

and you have to be willing to throw things away, even things that are near and dear to you.

...

because they just don't work.

...

and you have to be in in the

...

really really develop a sense of rigor

...

in order to work in this way, and I think that

...

that rigorous is

...

is a

...

a skill or a wave of

...

seeing that takes a lot of time to develop and and it's

...

it's

...

it's difficult and painful.

...

because

...

you

...

you do grow attached to things.

...

you you do have emotional attachments to certain material that feels

...

personal and right

...

but

...

when you take one step back, you understand that it just doesn't

...

serve the needs and what you're trying to say.

...

and you have to throw it out.

...

and

...

it doesn't fit. It doesn't move the narrative.

...

it just doesn't work. Right?

...

Exactly. And then then you're then you're in that place where

...

this starts to rub off into your life. And so

...

for example, when

...

in the pandemic happens.

...

it was clear that

...

it was just going to be

...

impossible to do

...

ninety nine percent of what I had been doing in the past.

...

and it wasn't going to serve my life.

...

it wasn't going to

...

serve my work.

...

And

...

but I still have this ambition and desire to work.

...

I've just my built my whole life around working and making things. And

...

the the

...

I just couldn't accept that stopping.

...

was going to repeat the answer. So

...

Well, but you can stop on a tuesday and and

...

Wednesday morning comes and it's well, now worth Right?

...

Exactly.

...

So I had to just examine all of my

...

apply the same rigor

...

of cutting

...

things out of my life as I would with approaching a text

...

or piece that I'm making it doesn't work.

...

this isn't working, so we have to cut it

...

and

...

and there been

...

then what? And so here, the situation was well then

...

because you know that if you

...

if you have the courage to

...

to really change to really embrace it.

...

then

...

that's where always... As we know where opportunity lies.

...

and

...

in my situation,

...

I'm running it was running independent theater company here and warsaw saw

...

and

...

suddenly, this... We're all in this pandemic situation.

...

and

...

I'm an independent company. We don't have our own space.

...

where dependent on infrequent grants

...

and we're competing against a bunch of huge institutional theaters here.

...

which have everything. In fact, a building and an ensemble and a budget and everything.

...

But with the pandemic happens,

...

suddenly we were all equal.

...

at least for a time.

...

there was a moment when nobody had an audience and nobody

...

new how to proceed.

...

And so that's when I started

...

to move into digital broadcasting with my with some of the artists that I

...

I'm working with them some members of my company.

...

and

...

we were somehow lighter because we we weren't in

...

by all these other

...

things that the big institutions have built around this live theater experience.

...

and I think it gave us not only the freedom of movement, but it also gives

...

the freedom of imagination.

...

Sorry. It has been very much a conscious process.

...

I think so, of course, is

...

there's another side of it, which is not. I I I think

...

one works on instinct.

...

And I think that's also how

...

one has to approach the for the enormous life changes that we're living

...

and

...

you know, instinct is in the world of mystery. I don't

...

I don't know where it comes from my own.

...

I don't know

...

what brought it into my head or into some my thinking or into my feelings

...

but I I

...

I accept that it's

...

it's vaglio and I listen to it.

...

So that's the background of the last

...

Yeah.

...

also,

...

Let's start asking some questions about

...

lessons learned and possible

...

Well, it's not conclusions that may be suggestions for a way forward,

...

At the last thing we want to do with artists

...

turn it into a medium, of course,

...

So I'm more interested in

...

what questions might arise

...

as a result of pursuing

...

the idea of adaptability.

...

is adaptability as a concept.

...

as an object in itself.

...

a worthy subject for an artist

...

took to to consider, how would you go about it?

...

Mhmm.

...

adaptability as a subject.

...

itself.

...

because other there are, of course, you know, many examples of

...

artists creating works in response to

...

for instance,

...

so

...

the imminent dangers of climate change

...

but in the main, those

...

tend to been

...

activist in nature.

...

call it.

...

Michael Pin pollution pods, for instance, come to mind.

...

those kinds of works. But

...

I wonder what potential my i

...

in exploring the idea of adaptability as a central element.

...

a artistic practice.

...

Not easy.

...

No. Wow. You've really... You're you're a usual.

...

But the the size of the challenge we have ahead of us is is

...

Also, somewhat daunting

...

and anthropologist, they say, a busy

...

studying our current predicament who will be written about it before too long.

...

But

...

you know,

...

arc

...

happens in response to

...

as a reef

...

of

...

the main big themes of life, and I think

...

adaptability

...

like it or not.

...

has become central.

...

to how how we conduct ourselves on this little planet

...

at this moment in time.

...

Yeah. Well, I think that the

...

we're in a moment where what we're having to adapt

...

so many things it's such a rapid pace.

...

that

...

Of course, I I don't know this for

...

for sure, but it feels like maybe even

...

a historically

...

you unique really truly unique moment.

...

we're adapting to

...

this explosion of technology

...

that

...

that

...

is so fast.

...

And so

...

pending of everything.

...

that that alone would be an enormous

...

task to grapple with

...

in terms of enough.

...

And it has been

...

and we have been grapple with it individually in as a society on many levels. Right?

...

Yes.

...

so that's happening. But but then let's add to the the mix

...

a global pandemic.

...

and climate change.

...

And

...

So these are two existential crises that affect

...

civilization

...

And so it's all coming to a head.

...

at this

...

at this moment.

...

and

...

so I can understand that that, you know, adaptability as

...

a point of inquiry

...

and as

...

subject

...

of

...

artistic practice is is

...

is to touch one of the most important

...

realities that are facing us. I mean, I really you think that we we... We as a

...

He

...

are going through something

...

that is

...

truly existential.

...

it's not so clear

...

that humanity will

...

pass through this

...

era

...

this and come out the other side the same.

...

I mean, I you

...

Oh, it's a it is it's it's clear that we will not be unscathed.

...

It's a degree of sca

...

that that is is now an open question, but

...

Let's examine perhaps

...

as an idea ways of looking at pieces

...

over catastrophe.

...

one at time.

...

because

...

selection.

...

course, is

...

time ordered

...

autistic.

...

mechanism, if you will.

...

So if we examine pieces of a catastrophe,

...

So has not to be

...

overwhelmed, but by the whole,

...

all at once.

...

but to maybe arrive

...

at a complete picture, ultimately,

...

we... Where would you begin?

...

Oh, this is all

...

this is the the the the profound is

...

challenge in in attacking gigantic subjects.

...

is is how to you how to find

...

the right window into it.

...

which is not only a window but

...

but is is a metaphor. And

...

I've said this

...

I think in the previous talk with you, but it it's always bears repeating it's

...

this definition of metaphor.

...

which I think is

...

one of the

...

the main tasks of the artist.

...

is to find that that metaphor

...

that allows us to see the big picture

...

And

...

definition of of

...

of metaphor.

...

there's something like this. So if you want to look at the sun,

...

you can't look straight at it.

...

as a.

...

you'll destroy your eyes.

...

and you don't see anything anyway.

...

so in order to look at something that large and bright,

...

the way you do it is

...

turn your head

...

I don't know, forty five degrees away from it and you look at it from the corner of your eye.

...

and the distance

...

between what you're now looking at and the sun that

...

that that's space. That's metaphor.

...

to find that.

...

is the.

...

and

...

and when you're talking about something like climate change,

...

which is just such a vast

...

and difficult subject.

...

which is

...

you know, you we... We cannot

...

scientists can't even wrap their minds around.

...

all the complexities in this

...

the artist jobs is then

...

even triple difficult to to continue do

...

Yeah. Except except if you think about it, the artist job is not to

...

plain reality. The artist's job is to put a

...

so that people can actually

...

take out little pieces of it and and carry it

...

carry them home with them. I mean,

...

if somebody else's job to to to explain the vast.

...

but the the metaphor indeed is is what we're looking for.

...

and it is... And it's the only thing that we can look for because

...

Otherwise,

...

it is to to big into to overwhelming. So how does

...

selectivity

...

figure in.

...

Well, in this case, I think it's somehow you have to choose your

...

is it

...

my ability is is choosing it choosing here's you're target and choosing your battle, I think,

...

I mean, As I've spoken before about

...

when

...

when I wanted to to

...

to a piece about the last major

...

catastrophe in the twentieth century or

...

was was to look at to look at the

...

the holocaust and to look at auschwitz,

...

in this way, I found a way into that subject by

...

looking at photographs,

...

from a a photo album room

...

which were guys

...

doing the daily activities

...

of running the camp. So this was the pictures of the perpetrators.

...

and

...

in examine the pictures and just looking at them carefully.

...

one could suddenly see a window

...

into the the problem, which was

...

which was

...

someone new

...

but also, which allowed you to see the whole thing.

...

And in this sense,

...

in these pictures, you never see what's really happening.

...

you just see the guys that are carrying it out.

...

And I think in a similar way,

...

I was thinking about this in terms of of Climate change, for example, that

...

that a assume a similar way

...

you know,

...

climate change.

...

could also be

...

the pictures of a group of investment bankers on the corporate retreat.

...

talking about their kids and their families in their hopes and the dreams to their futures.

...

But in fact, these guys, that... You know, they are

...

that they're still invested in

...

fossil fuel industry

...

and sure not monsters, they're not people that

...

they're trying to pretty the best they can or

...

but whatever reasons is they're doing it. And in fact, I think i

...

if we were to focus on the of this

...

that this would be actually a way

...

to

...

see where we are, which is in the state of inertia.

...

everyone knows that the problem this year is getting worse and worse and worse.

...

and yet our our responses to it are

...

are almost minimal.

...

Well, why is that?

...

what is the

...

when does the urgency?

...

finally take over

...

Let's have another conference and set some target

...

for when we're going to have another conference to set some targets, right?

...

for example,

...

And I

...

This is the global studio.

...

I'm here with Paul.

...

theater. And

...

film director when we're discussing

...

the limits of adaptability such as they may or may not be

...

And if you have I've used to throw into the pot, please

...

raise ahead, and we'll be sure to

...

throw a microphone in your general direction.

...

hope you can catch it.

...

Now.

...

you are a

...

director of humans on stage

...

one way or another used to working with groups of people,

...

with all the dynamics

...

that this entails

...

Have there been any particular lessons that you've been able to draw?

...

as a manager of people

...

i'm sort.

...

in terms of helping others adapt

...

in this whirlwind

...

in which we find ourselves.

...

Mhmm.

...

Yeah. I'm

...

I think that

...

I when when you were asking me this, I was thinking about actually the

...

the the last pro major process that I got to go through

...

before the ten kind sort everything down.

...

and

...

I did a piece

...

called plateau, which was inspired by

...

is essay by you lose, the French philosopher

...

And also, I think the piece was also quite quite inspired by

...

history

...

bowel

...

book liquid modality.

...

and

...

what

...

the reason I mentioned that is because

...

both of those works really

...

somehow tall

...

very directly to our moment in this sense of

...

tremendous uncertainty.

...

coming up from very different viewers, but also

...

and from very different perspectives and backgrounds, but somehow,

...

this concept of

...

time of profound uncertainty in in the midst

...

of enormous technological change and information

...

and the way we receive information

...

And

...

so what happened was is that when we were making this piece and I'm working with my team,

...

we

...

we engaged everybody to do deep research, so they were wrong

...

hundred down, basically,

...

doing deep dives into conspiracy theory and also a better

...

Internet generated cultural phenomenon, not only conspiracy

...

but all kinds of other things.

...

and then we assembled all this material

...

and then we it started making seams doing your propositions based on it.

...

and

...

then

...

it just became an endless process.

...

not unlike the way that one clicks around on Internet of constantly

...

moving things around changing the order,

...

discard bringing back

...

And this this whole process created such a crisis

...

in the ensemble.

...

that

...

because it was so uncertain.

...

and

...

and as, of course, we get got closer and closer to

...

the deadline.

...

which is, of course, built into every

...

every plane that you make is always gonna be an opening night.

...

and we're hurt towards that date

...

ever wrapped key.

...

and the crisis gets worse in worse worse.

...

And

...

what I found is

...

and the long way to answer your question,

...

And what I found generally speaking,

...

is

...

that the the most important

...

element of all of this

...

is when you're asking people to

...

embrace constant, uncertainty and unchanged.

...

when they're live, they're somehow they're the

...

this not their lives, but

...

the chance of total humiliation is waiting for them in front of the live audience.

...

what are they?

...

to to keep every together.

...

and to

...

maintain a sense of ensemble

...

you have to be completely honest about the stakes.

...

and

...

we always say that

...

that

...

The one thing that's true

...

is that all of us are afraid

...

And and I think that that acknowledging that

...

that fundamental fear

...

and really talking about it out loud.

...

is

...

is the is the the glue somehow?

...

that allows you to keep going forward.

...

that

...

if we understand

...

that we know you're afraid, and we know that I'm afraid to

...

and that

...

we don't know exactly how this is going to go.

...

we are certain that somehow we're going to get there.

...

and

...

in that, I think that's the lesson I can take from the theater about

...

matter

...

managing groups of people

...

is

...

that it's a balancing act of

...

confidence

...

and an acknowledgement that what you're doing is terrifying.

...

You've just

...

elegantly, segue into what was correct.

...

to talk about next, and that is the question of

...

identifying with the challenge

...

and when taking it on board,

...

psychological adaptation

...

to

...

to overs simplifies definition is a

...

set of behaviors

...

that benefited the person within the

...

given

...

environment.

...

and it it's it's based in if theoretical foundations, you know,

...

evolutionary psychology. I do wonder

...

in this evolution.

...

this fast evolution that we're in

...

What it

...

help us

...

not lose are our hats in the slip stream.

...

if we viewed this process as part of us,

...

as something to which we belong and something that

...

belongs to us rather than an external set of circumstances

...

which

...

we just need to adjust

...

because this is never gonna stop. Right?

...

No. It it it's not

...

And but but you're asking

...

I kind lost the thread

...

So

...

The self awareness required to to own

...

the issue that you're facing and and to to see it as

...

just part of what's going on as opposed to, you know,

...

circumstance that you have to deal with.

...

Yeah.

...

I think that's right. I think

...

you that

...

that all of this that's happening is is part of us It's part of the the the the

...

the narrative of being a human being

...

and

...

And I think if you can step away and

...

and I think that's one of the advantages of of the theater because the theater is such an old form

...

and it's been around and as long as

...

we've been

...

we've had civilization and and probably a lot longer.

...

instead

...

that

...

gives you a very long perspective on the the the human

...

condition.

...

leading of civilization. If you think about this right, if you go back

...

Go back far enough, Leo, Aloha. Welcome.

...

Great to see you.

...

My likewise

...

So you so you pop up.

...

what have we got to throw into the pot tonight?

...

I'm really loving the

...

station and the also of massively resonates with

...

of last eighteen months, and so on went

...

went for me and and what I'm seeing

...

I am I'm wondering so if we've been talking a lot about

...

adaptability

...

So what

...

are the

...

a couple of basics that really need to be

...

stable that we shouldn't be sort of

...

trying to fiddle with and and in

...

so much are these, and then how can we kind of help each other?

...

in in those safety situations,

...

like, like, which which bits of hand can we hang on to in this

...

in this guy right?

...

Exactly. And maybe there aren't any, but I'm I'm curious.

...

here what your think?

...

I'm beginning to suspect suspect that the runner

...

Mhmm.

...

Paul, what do you think? My other... Like, what's

...

sort of reality. What's where do you put the stake in the sand to to

...

to hang on to while every... You know, well, there is a gale blowing about your ears

...

Oh

...

well I was actually just sort of segue into that, which is

...

which is the... I think,

...

that

...

from our perspective

...

what we're facing now

...

seems apocalyptic.

...

But

...

but human beings have faced many situations in in our past that

...

felt every bit as a apocalyptic as this.

...

and

...

of course, maybe they didn't have the global consciousness that we have now.

...

but for

...

groups of people

...

they too walked and passed through the apocalypse.

...

for example, like one of the things that that I take

...

kind of strength around the comfort from this is

...

I've been so reading

...

the the life of Shakespeare.

...

And I was interested in that because

...

shakes there also encountered periods of plague.

...

that were really horrendous.

...

where the theaters were closed for several years.

...

and

...

Yes.

...

and it was a most spectacular plague there I say,

...

than the one we're dealing with now. Right?

...

Yes. I mean, you can imagine

...

you know, the health care that was available in the in the

...

Yeah.

...

in this era, you know, in the

...

it's is you know, courses the streets and

...

you know,

...

no.

...

no medicine to speak of.

...

no concept of of sanitation.

...

mean, really like, and somehow in that time,

...

which was

...

must have been

...

absolutely horrendous. Not to mention

...

all the theaters are closed. So there was, like,

...

in my situation there was no way to earn any money

...

what you're doing.

...

that

...

in that time.

...

Shakespeare, also wrote some of the greatest places I've ever been written.

...

and not only him, there was a whole

...

group of people who

...

had gathered in that wonderful moment and were

...

going from house to house and sharing books and sharing stories.

...

and

...

this the work

...

that came out of that as has endured

...

And so

...

but

...

I take comfort from stories like that and and and from doing research like that

...

because it it does give me a perspective that

...

that

...

human beings can rise.

...

and and Can endure through

...

enormously difficult times, and not only that but can also create

...

And

...

gain insights into stuff that's eternal or well,

...

I had to use ones like that, but that has really lasting value

...

for civilization.

...

Leo, what's been

...

on your mind, while we've been chatting, I'm sure you can

...

come up with an idea.

...

I was

...

what you were just saying definitely resonated. It it it feels like we

...

unlocked

...

another level of steps

...

somehow. So it feels like a lot of the noise

...

and the, you know, all the stuff that kept us so awfully busy

...

that's gone away or had to change.

...

and then things got all of a sudden quite substantial.

...

and people

...

So adaptability as an as an editing process of

...

Yes. Yes. I think a lot of the fluff

...

people are no longer willing to put up with or don't find it as into

...

thing as they used to.

...

And I I

...

find at least and in in some of the conversations that I'm seeing, I mean, not

...

not the shouting matches on Twitter, but in some of the deeper conversations,

...

people

...

people are trying to find a way of what the next

...

chapter could look like for them individually, but

...

also that maybe in the in a bigger

...

setting

...

This relationship of of

...

the individual and the biggest setting. This is

...

of course,

...

a theme that has

...

perm

...

theatrical

...

creativity and theatrical.

...

production

...

since time in the model. But as you

...

where

...

talking about migrating to a digital media,

...

pull

...

How has

...

that relationship being altered

...

in terms of

...

the content of of the the works that they know that you're

...

presenting and also

...

simply in terms of the physical relationship

...

that has

...

that is, you know,

...

has been made impossible by by the

...

by the disease.

...

Yeah. So i i mean, just gets to the

...

the the the the really challenging... I guess aesthetic part

...

of of the journey

...

So

...

being a director, one of the

...

the

...

the hats that you wear, of course, is it

...

in some ways, you you are a creator of stage pictures.

...

That's one of the things.

...

And so you're using the

...

transient

...

visual life of the stage to also tell stories.

...

But

...

and then you collaborate with designers and

...

so that the customs in your settings and the lights

...

and perhaps even video Mixed that is also working too

...

to to be the storytelling telling.

...

but that's not the deal and the theater.

...

the deal is the live experience. It's a live event.

...

it's what's... It's this mysterious thing that's happening between the

...

a group of

...

assemble group of lives

...

strangers who have come together to share

...

in this

...

temporal experience.

...

And

...

there's

...

they buy into the experience. And and before they know it the the

...

that in it and the in sync Right?

...

Yeah. They they're in it they're

...

Yeah.

...

transport. of course, if they board.

...

only talking about those cells that work, but when it works,

...

the physiological things happen the

...

This has been studied. The audience heartbeat will align

...

So they've actually hooked up audiences and they've measured and when

...

the show really gets

...

moving and the audience is totally engaged. Everyone's hard for beating at the same time.

...

there's there's physiological things happening in the room. There's

...

chemicals, far that are being released, which are

...

influencing all sorts of things in

...

in this stew of experience that we're sitting in.

...

And

...

working in this mode.

...

which I had done my whole career

...

there's a whole art to this

...

of of how do you manage how do you construct how to direct a live experience?

...

And

...

suddenly

...

Now I'm in digital.

...

and

...

everything that I just described

...

is cut off.

...

So except for the visual. So the visual is still there.

...

but that's kind of all that's there.

...

So do you make the visual more complex do you make it more simple?

...

Or does it depend?

...

it depends

...

as as ever.

...

as ever, it depends.

...

it depends.

...

but I do think that

...

The choices that I made

...

when in and putting this kinds of works together,

...

are still informed by my life and work in the theater.

...

and it's hard for me to quantify that exactly.

...

but I do think that it's a it's a very different perspective than let's say somebody has always been working

...

digital media or someone who's always been working in film.

...

there... I really am coming from a an entirely different aesthetic background.

...

And I do think that that there is value in that.

...

and I think that digital media

...

and all of this has been really enriching by the fact that

...

that was this forced migration.

...

of all these people from the live arts into digital media.

...

I think just

...

by

...

Of course, by necessity, it was a kind of refugee g crisis.

...

where all of the live arts people suddenly found themselves.

...

working in digital media.

...

and that perspective

...

was was really profound and had a profound impact on

...

and and continues have profound impact on on the kinds of work and because it

...

interests which are getting pursued,

...

And i was just... I would just the other day, I was watching Casa.

...

and which is such a still says a remarkable

...

film so beautiful.

...

and the backstory of that is so fascinating.

...

because the

...

at that time in the late thirties and then the

...

forties with the war that was his

...

huge exodus of of

...

German filmmakers and German actors and

...

drilling

...

people from the film film industry.

...

everybody left.

...

and they... Many of them made it back to Hollywood.

...

and Costa Is full of them.

...

it's full of their their they're aesthetic

...

So it's a German film aesthetic and it's that's at work there.

...

it's German actors.

...

not only German actors, but also other actors from other refugee actors

...

from Europe, and that whole wave of of

...

of Germans who came into Hollywood.

...

that's the basis of Noir.

...

because noah, which became the this enormously

...

important genre film

...

was actually German expression isn't in film.

...

and was all those same guys, directors and actors and others who

...

came over to Hollywood, and they totally changed the

...

the the whole face of that of the development of of

...

Hollywood in film

...

And I think that somehow, that's also happening now.

...

and

...

It's too soon to say in what ways this is gonna change everything.

...

But

...

I do think that in having so many interesting artists who never would have,

...

attempted to work in digital media doing it for the first time is

...

is a really exciting thing.

...

So

...

given

...

that everything happens fast now.

...

What do you think might be?

...

those genres that are likely to

...

Let's call it fine traction.

...

that are likely to

...

resonate with enough people

...

to to, you know, to be lasting, Of course, enough people is a very

...

malleable term, and

...

and enough people can be a hundred people these days.

...

And... If that's that's the audience... The audience you find.

...

But

...

other than saying, okay. Well, hybrid rules, well, we know hybrid rules.

...

But

...

are we at all able to look somewhat more deeply

...

into this

...

Murky, crystal Ball, and c

...

what those those hybrids might look like?

...

in the not to distant future.

...

Oh,

...

Where where are you pointing your hybrids? Let's let's let's

...

start with that.

...

or

...

well,

...

because I don't... You're you're you're about to start start working on

...

on on a film a fairly. Shall we say, standard way of storytelling, But

...

What about what about some of the managers that we've seen?

...

some of those crazy bastard children of

...

digital and live.

...

where is old is going?

...

any idea at

...

I I I have no idea.

...

I I think I

...

it's

...

I'm just... I just have the seats on the roller coaster.

...

But

...

I can't tell you some things that which were

...

interesting

...

some of the earlier experiments that that I was involved in

...

of

...

one that one in particular

...

So

...

tell us one that worked and tell us one that didn't.

...

Sure. So one that worked. So

...

when we... One of the very first things that we tried was

...

when I brought my team together to try to do some digital broadcasting

...

we did a a show called

...

the secrets with Greg.

...

and this was inspired by

...

my first time in Poland, there was a

...

late night television program.

...

series of programs.

...

called As Tv.

...

and

...

So Tv would come on at, like, eleven o'clock, and typically, what it was were

...

basically online mystic.

...

So Fortune, psychic,

...

these kinds of people

...

a staple of late night television.

...

Yes. Who

...

we're with we're sitting there waiting for people to call them.

...

and there's like a beautiful phone number flashing on the screen, and

...

if you called, your your your mobile was charged and

...

governance amount of money, but then you got to speak live to

...

the mistake or the run this psychic person was

...

And I used to sit up at night and watch this because it was just

...

outrage for me, very outrageous bizarre.

...

I never seen anything like it quite in the Us.

...

and it was really

...

and there were many guys doing it, It was like a a whole culture

...

and

...

and there were often these moments when

...

no what would call

...

And it has wow was like waiting for god.

...

like, but in some other way,

...

like, this like,

...

it was so human so heartbreaking breaking that it is like in empathetic and

...

strange. And so

...

we decided that we would try to do

...

a show like that.

...

here in Poland.

...

and

...

but to bring to it, the sense of the live

...

So

...

we had a an actor played Greg

...

and Greg was this sort of

...

pseudo mistake.

...

and he was making up almost everything that he was saying.

...

which is which felt also exactly how like the real

...

six were. Like it never felt like, anything, but some weird bad involved.

...

and

...

and we invited the public to call in and share secrets with him.

...

and

...

So in addition to that, we also had

...

a group of actress that we're were working with.

...

who

...

were kind of

...

plants, and they would call in

...

and

...

work with him.

...

but we never knew what they were going to say either.

...

So it's a mix of random strangers calling in

...

and actors with

...

kind of prepared ideas, but which we didn't know who were

...

That's enough to give you publications.

...

Oh oh yes. We're also coughing in.

...

and

...

And but what was really interesting

...

is that

...

we

...

we were trying to capture

...

as much as we could and the digital experience, something that's truly live.

...

So this is really unedited.

...

mitigate. We we we really don't know

...

who's gonna call if anyone is going to call

...

And if people do called, we don't know when

...

and we don't know what we're going to get.

...

And

...

and the actor

...

who's very skilled actor, Travis,

...

very good improvise.

...

somehow I had to deal with all of this in the moment.

...

and

...

what came out of it for me, which was really successful.

...

is that over time,

...

a kind of culture built up around the show

...

and people started talking about more and more

...

really controversial phase.

...

sharing really uncomfortable personal stories.

...

or that that related to the politics

...

fear or related to all sorts of things.

...

and

...

and somehow this worked, and it worked because of this

...

this

...

we had made this commitment to work.

...

live.

...

And that's that's a show that I think was really effective.

...

the on the ones that didn't it work,

...

What yes. What about the ones that

...

you something as opposed to the successes, you know?

...

what what was really clear

...

quite quickly, what doesn't work.

...

is trying to move theater

...

into

...

a digital world

...

in a kind of one to one way.

...

It just doesn't. It just doesn't translate.

...

and it comes across as

...

empty

...

and and in in a sense it comes across as amputated.

...

Sort of it's different and boring. Really doesn't it?

...

it's stiff and boring because all those other things that I was just describing earlier is not present.

...

And so

...

Now we didn't try to do anything like that because

...

it was clear that we could see that's what a lot of people were doing

...

And

...

it just was a total disaster.

...

it it it it

...

it it was the... It committed the first crime of

...

of the stage that it was boring.

...

And, you know, the miniature you're boring

...

you're dead.

...

it's the there's no recovering from that.

...

and

...

So

...

that was a lesson learned that mostly by watching what... But

...

everyone was doing because there was a moment when the pandemic was

...

really serious and when everybody was in lockdown,

...

that just about every actor

...

in

...

in Poland picked up their iphone and started doing stuff.

...

and

...

So... But in general, it was

...

theater performance just trying to keep trying to see if you could get it to

...

to work through an iphone.

...

or

...

or some people trying to do it through resume.

...

something that we've also tried to play around with.

...

but

...

I think that the... What you add to recognize is that

...

you're really dealing with something new that has its own rules, which are not new rules even this is

...

working in television or working in film.

...

this is a different language, and you have to learn it.

...

and

...

as part of that is

...

you

...

you're gonna have to let go

...

of the aesthetics of the craft that you spend your whole life working on.

...

So adaptability in that sense is

...

in large part, learning very quickly, what not to do. Right?

...

absolutely. And of course, we were we we had a big

...

school of that because there was just a day

...

everybody moves online.

...

And and the irony is is that

...

over time, some of the bigger theaters got really good at it.

...

And they, of course,

...

some very talented directors working in those institutions.

...

and they also were watching the the very bad.

...

turn head theater, and they also looked at what they were doing.

...

and they adapted.

...

and I think they... That some of them did some quite successful hybrid

...

things

...

where

...

they were able to

...

make the work interesting and compelling.

...

So it wasn't boring.

...

it was still live.

...

it was still theater

...

But

...

it's

...

entire perspective was geared towards being

...

experience through a screen.

...

And

...

that meant tilting everything radically in the direction of visual.

...

storytelling kelly.

...

And and the other side of that, which was

...

I think, from me, really hopeful

...

looking ahead to the future when maybe some,

...

Covid will be behind us so we can return to a

...

normal life in the theater with live audiences

...

is that

...

the digital broadcasting allowed

...

a much much wider public

...

and I'm just speaking about Paula, but in Poland, to see

...

the big stages.

...

And, of course, you know, this is the problem in many

...

countries around the world where you have

...

big cities, which have a huge collection of stages

...

and then you have vast countryside, which have none

...

And so if you want to experience

...

the the the theater you you have to go to the big city, and that's not

...

always would given that it's so easy to do that.

...

Wow, it's gonna be time consuming expensive. All those things. Right?

...

and

...

Yeah. And and and also daunting. I mean, you don't know what where to go, what to choose

...

you know, you don't it's

...

and

...

and in this in this situation, you

...

there so much really excellent

...

worked by the end being broadcast.

...

that people from all over the province has got to see a show for the first

...

time in Or Chia or Or

...

or wherever

...

it was the first time that they out to to see a show there.

...

And I think that that's really

...

enormously valuable.

...

it really democrat

...

the theater in a very interesting way.

...

And also, because these shows

...

it's easy to broadcast.

...

So

...

you know, people would hear about it, and then they would they would check the website, and then they would

...

go to see it and the price, the price point was lower.

...

And so it was more, again, more accessible. It wasn't like a

...

enormous undertaking and certainly a lot cheaper than, you know,

...

driving to the big city and printing a hotel and going out to dinner and going to see a

...

show. I mean, that's like

...

for some people that's a once in a year or once and five year opportunity.

...

and

...

here was it's somehow and no... It suddenly

...

it's been made available in a way that it never was.

...

So while

...

Carpet has

...

depend inequalities in

...

some areas of life it has been a something of a level

...

in this case, is that more or less?

...

What time

...

Yeah. I I would say, yeah. I would say that's exactly right.

...

And with all those lessons, I think

...

we should possibly pause it

...

here, and we will revisit

...

this idea of adaptability in its many guys as I'm sure,

...

on the the Global studio.

...

for the moment, However, it's time for me to say many thanks

...

to pull.

...

theater and film director

...

Cool

...

sharing his experiences and his ideas about to

...

how

...

artists to may

...

provide something of a

...

if not of that shining example, then perhaps,

...

a modest suggestion

...

of a possible path forward. There are this

...

time of adaptability with a capital a

...

Thank you, Paul, and thank you, Laura. Thank you for for sticking ahead and again, it's

...

always a pleasure.

...

all

...

And thank you.

...

Thank you to to all the listeners, and we will catch you again.

...

on the my level studio.

...

next week.

...

Have a great evening.

...

Thanks, Ralph. Good night.

Fortune Cookie