The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.

Request Access to Fireside

×

00:00

00:00

IN STUDIO

/

The future of entertainment is interactive.

Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.

Request Access to Fireside

Transcript

...

you and and I and

...

And all of us really have always had things

...

about which

...

to be

...

anxious.

...

go on. Admit it.

...

lately, however, it seems

...

we learn about new such things more and more frequently.

...

always on culture, for example,

...

is itself a source of anxiety for many

...

if not, most people

...

unless we consciously take steps to reduce this,

...

always on this

...

we're subject to an facing

...

barrage of data and flo

...

and equal measures, of course, the data is

...

plenty, anxiety introducing enough or by itself,

...

I try to fish out good news about renewables

...

concrete moves to curb pollution, for instance,

...

but those are easily drowned out by

...

years of climate change disasters, ecosystems destroyed by pollution

...

flat fire brainstorm

...

and seemingly domination.

...

So I wonder

...

Is there something that art and artists can do?

...

to

...

help us work out some of that anxiety to use it.

...

as material maybe.

...

more than than emotional blocks to help me

...

look for

...

answers in the growth joined on the creative phone by

...

to regular farm farm hands.

...

Erica Drive writer, and multimedia producer.

...

coming in from the wild of British Columbia.

...

and paul, theater and film director,

...

hopping in from the wild of Central Poland.

...

Welcome by to the creative farm.

...

again,

...

Thanks, Ralph. Happy to be here.

...

It's always a pleasure. Erica, Tell me,

...

so

...

artist used to anxiety

...

I think so. Well, I think I think there's that whole event

...

of

...

in order to kind of put yourself out there.

...

you're essentially taking a huge brave

...

step and

...

in order to, like, you know, expose yourself

...

Austin, also sort of walking a path that is is

...

is not a traditional path as far as

...

know, employment and way journeys and and and things like that are concerned.

...

So

...

Well, you know, it

...

it's scary, and there's always a certain amount of anxiety that

...

that goes into every project that you put out there.

...

It also does sort of

...

help you to learn to to deal with

...

anxiety and manage it. And

...

you know, and that time times of overcome.

...

So does that?

...

experience firsthand,

...

every day.

...

with anxiety, does it help or hinder

...

in dealing with the onslaught disturbing news, for instance, that surrounds us.

...

Well,

...

these days. Or does it does it not matter?

...

I mean,

...

I I guess,

...

So so it's it's no secret on Fireside that I would

...

dealing with a bit of anxiety the summer,

...

with some stuff that I was sort of managing in my masters.

...

and

...

I I know for me, it it was a little bit of a long haul and instead of

...

overcoming that anxiety, but

...

I think one of the things and I was... I was talking with

...

with a friend about this the other day, is is one of the things that I learned from that

...

is is sometimes with anxiety, you almost have to

...

it's it settled that about, you know, getting back on the horse.

...

And so so like, I know for me with with that particular anxiety,

...

it was getting myself back into my masters taking another course.

...

that that sort of got me

...

got me

...

over

...

the

...

rather crippling amount of fear that

...

and and stress that I was that I was having around that.

...

So so don't don't let it. Don't let it get you down.

...

get up and and and get on with it that sort of thing.

...

Well, I mean, and... You you have to deal with the down.

...

you you can't you can't

...

can deal with anxiety just by ignoring it. You you have

...

the you have to to

...

deal with the emotions and experience the emotions

...

And and you have to... Like, this was the other thing I was talking to

...

to the friend of buying about because she was dealing with anxiety.

...

was

...

I I'd asked her if, you know, if she was doing, you know, sort of the things

...

that she does to help her overcome those anxieties.

...

and and part of what I

...

know, what I learned from our conversation was that she doesn't

...

have she hasn't figured out what those things are for her yet.

...

So and I think this is different.

...

You mean, you mean, they are the other things to do to help.

...

Exactly.

...

Yeah.

...

the things to do to to manage the anxiety or

...

you know, move beyond that sense of fear into in

...

to, you know, kind of that zone of being able to

...

whether it's whether it's creating or

...

just generally functioning or or

...

sort of... I I... Well, I guess getting past that fear. And so

...

so I know in... In that case, I think I think what that is

...

is different for everybody.

...

But that

...

you know, it is. It is very much something like, you know, with having worked in the

...

space for so long where

...

where... Where you don't

...

you know, when you're not working in a space with a regular paycheck and things like that.

...

it has over the years taught me how to manage

...

and deal with anxiety and

...

unfortunately, you know, anxiety does come in many different forms. And so form I was dealing with

...

the summer took me a little bit longer to

...

to to manage and and and and address

...

it it usually does when when there are toxic humans at the other end of the string,

...

Mhmm

...

Mhmm

...

I was just to just to enlarge on on on the

...

field of discussion.

...

tonight, I was having lunch with a body of mine.

...

last week,

...

and he was actually really quite

...

worried.

...

he was leaving a worst world

...

to his kids rather than a better one. He's not about to pop pop off

...

anytime certain we have. But, you know, be that as it may. He was really

...

sense that

...

you know, one

...

hopes to leave a better world behind. And in fact,

...

that was not the case. This

...

sort of dark for voting is not

...

and unfamiliar territory to the artist Paul, is it

...

Perfect. No. It is not.

...

I'm not I'm not what not picking on you is just, you know, your turn to speak, you know?

...

Yeah. Yeah.

...

Well,

...

my perspective of of of anxiety and and

...

fear

...

is that

...

It's

...

It's the

...

it's the essential

...

one of the essential ingredients of the creative process.

...

And in the theater,

...

we have the saying that the the the the only thing that's true

...

in the theater is that that the actor is afraid of the scene.

...

And, of course, all the other participants are just

...

following the same line of fear

...

So the direct

...

and everything else make believe this is the only real thing. Right?

...

This is the only real thing is that we're afraid

...

And so if the actors afraid of the scene, then the directors of

...

afraid of the play, and the play is afraid of

...

the director or whatever.

...

or is afraid of the the blank page

...

So the

...

the

...

the stage is is somehow

...

and an Arena, an arena of destruction

...

fear terror that we decide

...

and

...

some strange contradictory way to hu ourselves into.

...

and you have to

...

you have to go

...

to the place that scares you the worst.

...

And that's that's I'm

...

only speaking for myself, but I I think this is

...

definitely an ethic that's in the... It's in in in in

...

is that you you

...

Is it because because they had the tony bushes

...

have the sweetest fruit.

...

Well, yes, I but I also think there's this

...

that that's that's usually where the truth is.

...

and

...

the truth is never the low hanging fruit. The truth is always the one in the darkest place.

...

So so so you have to

...

you you have to reach through the thoughts to get to the truth.

...

I think so.

...

I don't think there's any other way

...

And and then, you know, as the saying goes, you the

...

my favorite saying about the truth is that... And I don't know if who said this. I just

...

all written ones and it's stuck with me forever. As so the the truth is perhaps sad.

...

I always loved the qualifier. That was perhaps sad.

...

Yeah.

...

Perhaps Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's let's let's not not to get ourselves

...

too far far down. So so

...

Is it just theater?

...

Fuck, who naturally use anxiety as raw material.

...

Or or or can we extend that?

...

Oh i'd

...

Well, I mean, I think some of the

...

Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Paul.

...

Don't go ahead I I was just gonna say, of course. I mean and

...

so many so many writers and painters and

...

artists of all stripes.

...

have

...

have tried to face face what what what

...

made them... What what's scared than the most?

...

You know, look at

...

Echo or look at Franz Seeker.

...

or

...

take your pick

...

to to focus on the things to focus on terror and anxiety.

...

is

...

it's it's such an essential part of the human condition.

...

Mean when

...

we'll have to do a separate

...

chat on pain and and we will feature

...

Well we'll start with free Car and progressed from there

...

Eric you were going to mention something

...

Yeah. Well, I think

...

I think being able to talk about and

...

right about and craft stories that

...

are around our anxiety is

...

it is part of what draws us into some stories.

...

And

...

So I'm... I'm I'm specifically thinking about this from from

...

that sort of character that I write that

...

intended for some novels emmy mean,

...

And that was one of my early realizations with

...

her

...

is

...

through her, I was... I was

...

writing about some of my my fears as a young woman, and

...

some of my

...

you know, those those moments that

...

I think

...

well, I think it's... And I I was gonna say as women, but I I'm changing that to

...

to people since some, I realized in the early days, a lot of

...

men were actually gl onto those stories because of how honest

...

she wrote about her fears and

...

they had similar fears, albeit in slightly different areas, And

...

Somehow tell it to me every

...

those things that we don't talk about

...

Emmy has Of of Bright Shiny

...

deal and she's not not terrified of anything.

...

Well, it's true. She's she's she's fall, but I I guess, because

...

she was openly talking about about those sort of

...

confusing moments that that we go through that we... That we have anxiety around

...

that that we we think that we're

...

it's it's only us. And I actually think that's one of the good things that's come out of this

...

this last or, you know, throughout throughout the pandemic

...

people are now more openly speaking about

...

some of their fears, some of their bodies because

...

I think

...

you know, that's that's, you know, part of that process.

...

And I think that's one of the things that's been

...

you know, that we've

...

one of the wonderful parts of of of our stories is is

...

you know, when you're crafting a story, ultimately, you have a protagonist

...

that is

...

working towards overcoming something. And

...

and and so often in in many different forms, that that thing the

...

protagonists is overcoming is is is

...

is some form of fear, some form of things the idea there.

...

So so I think they play a power. I think it plays a

...

powerful part in our our our storytelling and

...

I I actually have to say for me as a writer, it's partially what has

...

helped me to process

...

and to work through some of the... Some of the difficult things for the happened in

...

me in my life.

...

So how much does

...

does our anxiety level have to do with our tendons

...

to avoid and how does art

...

reflect that be seems to be in movies.

...

in particular very good at

...

demonstrating that that mechanism

...

really well in this space of, you know, nineteen minutes.

...

is this another case of art holding up a mirror for society?

...

Oh, I think with movies,

...

pens on the movie. I mean you've got... You've got a certain amount.

...

Oh, we're talking about the the the good the good ones. The good ones. You know?

...

Yeah. Yeah. I was just I've... I've

...

he the led of Opal movies, colleague me

...

calling us to ask for our teachers to work other field sets right now. So

...

that's why I gave a little chuckle at that since

...

those sorts some movies are very formulaic, And

...

I actually think that often the messaging that

...

put in there is what play, you know,

...

plays on

...

on on the fears and anxiety

...

in women.

...

which is can be can be somewhat.

...

damaging when you're you're sort of

...

and I and... And this is actually something... Probably for a whole other topic, but

...

you know, that whole idea that storytelling

...

can be used to

...

to put certain ideas in society's mind of how things should be.

...

which can be quite. Well,

...

can

...

it can be damaging, and it can also cause

...

We... Are we are we talking about about

...

as,

...

tearing her

...

hair out at people taking her

...

fiction as as an instruction manual perhaps.

...

I hadn't thought about that, but so... Yeah. I again,

...

as a Canadian, you know, we we certainly grew up in schools on her stories.

...

And

...

and yeah. I mean, it it's it's actually quite

...

daunting to see some of these sort of youtube

...

or these not Utopian dystopian worlds that she's

...

created starting to see some people kind of

...

echo

...

get get excited about bringing them to fruition.

...

Yeah.

...

Let's just... Let's just circle back circle back.

...

to this idea of always on this because

...

that

...

seems to me is one of the

...

major drivers of of our current

...

state of constant stress

...

what do you do?

...

best here.

...

to switch off, some of that always on this. Can you do it?

...

doesn't it work? Does it help?

...

when you do, are you are you then merely

...

chronically anxious instead of feeling

...

you know, critically assaulted.

...

So you you mean

...

always on this and and meaning that

...

in the digital sense

...

so always always... In the digital sense.

...

know you pick up the phone you pick up the ipad, you pick up the the computer up and the

...

here's a screen. Here's another screen. But there's that's two more screens.

...

and, you know,

...

so much... I when someone calculated that, you know, the average person

...

you know, in that Western society.

...

concerns like so many gigabytes of data through their eyes is

...

every day. Alright. That's

...

that in itself is

...

Anxiety and interesting. Is it not?

...

It is and, especially

...

given the state of the world these days,

...

our little screen. So I just gus a gus geyser of

...

of doom bad news.

...

and and also, that's

...

think that's also a human nature.

...

we're interested we're more interested in

...

in the bad news. If you look at news generally, it's always bad news.

...

Well, it does. I mean, good news doesn't sell. You know, you're you learn that in

...

Good news doesn't sell. Yeah.

...

you learned that in journalism school on day too. You know?

...

Yeah. So, like, if you say like, well,

...

no one's gonna watch the news and you say, things are going relatively okay today.

...

nothing too seriously bad is happening.

...

Well, yeah. You you think

...

and people would change the channel immediately.

...

Yeah. You think of the good place, and then it turns out actually, there is a there isn't the current

...

But can you switch off? Do you switch off?

...

I I I do

...

And

...

The the the two main ways are

...

trying to focus on my children.

...

So try to pull myself

...

totally out of my world and it get as deep into theirs as as I can.

...

and that's

...

that's a practice of attention

...

which is not easy.

...

And the other discipline I find is that that you have to get back into the body

...

And

...

as it

...

as we sort I like to invert the saying, you know, if you you wanna

...

they used to be like, you free the mind and the asshole will follow.

...

but I think it's in in in these kinds of

...

situations with anxiety that you if you free your ass,

...

the the mind will follow. And what

...

So you go from walks

...

I go for walks. Lately, I've I've

...

been doing a lot of writing and bicycles

...

which is another great thing.

...

And but I do think that exercise

...

and obviously, turning off the device of or leaving it at home.

...

is, of course, critical to that.

...

But but I like the the bike because you you can't

...

you can't guess you're you can't have your phone with you on the bike.

...

unless you intend to crash. So

...

would be somewhat detrimental to you

...

Yep.

...

your physical health. Erica, do you turn off?

...

Can you turn off?

...

Yeah.

...

So I I

...

Can you put it away?

...

I I think I've got a, you know, a

...

I've been been being sort of verse

...

and living in that world for for much longer than most

...

people have sort of being one of the

...

sort of pioneers in in those spaces. And so

...

for me, I learned really early on certain things.

...

first of all, that I do not need to... And it does not

...

hoo me or is healthy for me to

...

feel the need to respond to everybody's comments.

...

And

...

you know,

...

replies to me right away.

...

And so I I know there's certainly people that I offend by not doing that, but

...

you know, at the end of the day, the people that

...

matter.

...

like that that are the people that I know

...

that are important in my world.

...

they they understand that. And they they understand, that

...

I I do not live and breathe on these devices twenty four seven.

...

I also teach... Like, we we now have a policy in our

...

company that if we have somebody who's reaching out,

...

to do a new job with us that we

...

even if we have the time

...

we might respond, but we won't send the response right away.

...

And and the reason for that is because we've learned over the years that if

...

we respond and reply right away at the beginning of a relation

...

and shift with a client and on weekends and in evenings, which

...

often because our team decides

...

when in the week, they wish to be working. They might be

...

It it sets an expectation. Doesn't it?

...

Yeah. They might be working at those times, but we we won't

...

reply other than in daylight hours for the first

...

little while. Later on, it doesn't matter because because the

...

client doesn't have an expectation. But but at the beginning, if

...

we respond right away if we respond in evenings and on weekends,

...

then there becomes that expectation, and it creates

...

for a really unhealthy relationship.

...

and

...

then

...

my device, and and this is probably, you know, this is one of the benefits

...

of of working in the the film industry.

...

is my device is always on silent.

...

So

...

So I don't hear things hanging at me and I'm I'm kinda laughing because it

...

some I actually give have somebody picking at me as we speak right now, which

...

which is abnormal

...

That was a ping I had

...

Yeah. That was a ping. It's because one of my one of my teachers

...

i'm said it's her birthday right now. But... But normally,

...

Normally, all ping is off on my devices, which

...

so that I'm not taken away from whatever I'm reading, whatever I'm doing.

...

it's not creating anxiety for me to see how many light

...

my post that I just stuck up on Facebook or

...

Instagram is getting. And and I am

...

I'm kind in a happy place with that too, where I've

...

Right it's

...

not not getting any today. That's for sure.

...

no. No. No. No. Since both are done today.

...

But

...

And then I I have all the notifications

...

turned off on my devices, The only notifications that sort of come up

...

to tell me that somebody is trying to reach me.

...

is my phone and my text messages. And so, you know,

...

with close friends, they gen or or

...

or my work colleagues, hence, all of man's things just now

...

they know that's how to get a ahold of me if they actually need my attention right away.

...

which is which is kind of like me picking you

...

six minutes ahead of that you start the show. Saying

...

Exactly, which is actually quite useful.

...

and and and and getting getting my own little anxiety attack, if you don't done

...

respond inside of sixty seconds. Let's talk about. Let's talk about health.

...

Let's talk about health because these things are in intricate

...

and intimately connected cardiovascular disease.

...

this is. Right. Diabetes.

...

lots of other conditions are associated with

...

depression, the chronic stress and so on. And there is

...

increasing evidence that

...

gale exposure to music in particular, but the art in general can

...

help with both

...

stress and and the depression.

...

to artist, of course, that is not exactly news.

...

But

...

You know, there's been research on this

...

how many years, but it's it's only been in the last couple of decades where

...

clinical research has, you know,

...

definitely demonstrated

...

the connection. Music in particular has been shown to reduce anxiety.

...

pain restore the effectiveness of the immune system and so on.

...

So so it's a pity that we don't have our resident

...

musician adrian Coca with us, we'll have to pick up this subject with him.

...

at some stage soon. But from your perspectives,

...

Can these findings be applied more broadly? Can all at?

...

help heal our anxiety frustrated, you know, you know, our frustration

...

I think some art actually increases your anxieties.

...

Okay.

...

like, depending on where my mind is that I can't

...

I can't... There's certain things that I cannot take in

...

because, like, if I'm in an anxious state already, like,

...

any stories that involve horror thriller, I need to avoid, like,

...

to plague because my

...

Life is life is terrifying enough without without watching

...

even king movies. But you know,

...

Exactly.

...

But and similarly, like, the the the same goes for

...

for certain types of music or certain types of art if something

...

is too dark when I'm in a state of anxiety already.

...

that feeds into the anxiety for me that that puts me into, you know,

...

state where I'm more likely to have nightmares and things like that. So

...

which which kind of proves the point that that the stuff really

...

as direct

...

bearing on our emotional state. Doesn't it

...

Oh, absolutely.

...

Paul

...

What do you think?

...

Well, I I think that the that that the arts

...

have tremendous value

...

therapeutic value in in terms of of helping us

...

manage and confront anxiety

...

I think that's

...

one of the oldest things in the theater is is

...

is tragedy, of course. So let's why would

...

is a just they release factor

...

But it

...

Oh, is... Is there's something else?

...

Well, I think there's much more to it than matt. I think I think that

...

what we've a little bit lost touch with with all of our digital intermediaries

...

and and three technology is that that art

...

and the experience of Art

...

was always rooted in the kind of public ritual.

...

so that you you go with others

...

to experience the art.

...

So you go to a a a live concert

...

with hundreds or thousands of other people

...

you go to the theater with hundreds or sometimes even thousands of other people

...

and

...

or

...

you go to a gallery or or an exhibition and there's

...

So there's a sense that all of us that the people come together and they come together to

...

experience something. And if I'm thinking about the theater,

...

that

...

that

...

even though we might go see something

...

such as a a very difficult tragedy, for example. And and yet, why do we keep going?

...

like why do people wanna keep going to see tragedies? Or, we all go together.

...

So we go, and we we come to as an audience, we come together as an audience and we face

...

the tragedy

...

together.

...

and we pass through some kind of experience together

...

with the actors and with ourselves as the audience there together,

...

And I think this has tremendous therapeutic value.

...

that ritual and the ritual gathering of

...

of of energies and people in one place.

...

helps us tremendously because I think the the the biggest

...

anxiety of all is is to be alone.

...

and that we

...

and that we will have to face all of the difficulties of life by ourselves.

...

and I think the ritual of public arts is is

...

is a way that can really greatly alleviate that because we we come together as

...

as as a group of people.

...

and we become somehow like, a one organism

...

when the music is right or when the theater is right,

...

or even if the gallery and the art and the space is right,

...

that brings us together and and and makes us

...

at least eliminate the the hardest one, which is that you're all alone in this.

...

So should should we maybe

...

add that qualified and mister start.

...

hell is other people come up, perhaps

...

Yeah. Well, hell... Of course, you know?

...

one can't argue with with with that sentiment because, of course,

...

you know, in in a place of Torture,

...

we're doing it to ourselves.

...

So how is how is, of course, other people

...

But

...

in prison

...

the worst punishment of solitary confinement.

...

And I think that, you know, how... I don't

...

you that hell was often other people that I would I would argue that the

...

the the lowest circle of powers is is

...

to be all by yourselves.

...

So

...

we'll we'll have to examine the poets work

...

in not to distant future because I've been looking at it.

...

the last couple of weeks in thinking. There is

...

tough to talk about. But but

...

Daunte will have to wait wait for to till another another

...

time Erica, you are going to say something

...

Well, yeah. I mean, I I think I think

...

I think there's a certain amount of perspective on that because I know for myself,

...

I need a alone time.

...

I I need times when I

...

you know, purposely, you know, set out in an adventure by myself.

...

in order to process things in my life in order to

...

But then it's a question of choice and of purposes in it?

...

it is but, you know, it

...

rather than than in position.

...

It's

...

But I also think that there's there's a certain amount of of

...

of of learning and

...

self reflection and processing that that that

...

that we do when we're when we're on our own, and I I don't think that

...

I don't think that's something to be afraid of or to... I mean, yes.

...

there's there's anxiety that goes into that. There can be fear that goes into

...

that but there can also be a tremendous amount of

...

of feeling that comes out of that. I am

...

I

...

And I... And I don't disagree that it is something that

...

we fear. I know, you know, after my car accident and

...

the beginnings of my kind of

...

dealing with my my my new realities.

...

you know, certainly a huge amount of fear with that initially was the fact

...

that I was on my own was how was I gonna deal with all this

...

on my own. And and and then I saw, you know, too that

...

you know, through some of the people in the hospital programs, I discovered that, you know,

...

some of that

...

feeling

...

you know,

...

having... Having somebody else in your life didn't mess

...

fairly make that any easier. In fact, in some cases people

...

had a worst road to lead because

...

because

...

because the other people in their life weren't

...

fairly people that were healthy or supportive.

...

and They had the wrong issues.

...

But I also... I think there's also something to be said to the

...

to knowing

...

and sort of

...

becoming happy and comfortable with yourself and loving your

...

self and loving your own company. Now that I say that and

...

you know, as we're talking right now, certainty

...

that comes... That comes with age. Though doesn't it?

...

Well it it does, but I also was gonna say I have a certain young lady who just

...

crawled into my arms to remind me that I have

...

very rarely. Actually,

...

I believe we could we could hear just a moment ago.

...

Yes.

...

Oh,

...

give her a good scratch behind the air.

...

it's this is the creative farm i'm rough

...

I'm talking to my good friends and trusty farm hands.

...

Rick and poor budget and we are trying to figure out

...

how

...

the artist's way maybe

...

helpful in dealing with

...

anxiety. Let's talk about

...

public, anxiety and public dealing with it.

...

I'm wonder if public art

...

is not particularly well suited to examining

...

common affairs and exotic Candy chang comes to mind.

...

If you recall her before I die chalkboard,

...

for instance, she started in in your orleans. And now years later, the project has

...

taken

...

to the streets of many hundreds of locations worldwide,

...

turns out

...

most people are

...

anxious about pretty much the same kinds of things.

...

does it

...

take an artist to point out

...

the obvious similarities before people can really see them.

...

Or is that too hard?

...

Well, it's a... It it's just hard to hang hang it all on the artist's head.

...

But

...

Some scare, you know,

...

carry that with with a degree of poison and and grace

...

others carry it as a sort of

...

you know, horror punishment, but but they do. I mean,

...

it it is the the the artists lot

...

to to carry some of that. Is it not

...

Oh, absolutely

...

emails at the beginning, I think that

...

that when... You you do have to confront

...

what

...

what scares you the most. And

...

And and part of this, I think, is is that

...

in order to to to get yourself up every day and do that,

...

you must cultivate the value of courage.

...

And it

...

it sometimes feels like

...

this is an old fashioned word.

...

and, you know, that

...

this is something strangely, like, you know, hemingway or something where you

...

your whole life is built around the confrontation a test.

...

But I do think that that

...

the value

...

the only way to really confront anxiety fear is with courage encourages value that

...

you have to exercise, and then you have

...

I don't think hemingway invented that

...

If

...

at least

...

I think it goes back to home at least perhaps perhaps

...

it at least that... I I just feel like maybe perhaps

...

this this is a little bit out of fashion these days, but but I do think that the

...

that

...

that is

...

that is

...

if you... I think one of the the the biggest compliments you can say about an artist

...

or or work of art is that it was brave? And I think that

...

and its bravery was that it that it confronted something

...

that was really true and that was

...

perhaps difficult to articulate. And I think that

...

that that also can inspire us when we see a brave work

...

and and then we pass through that work either as a live event or as a

...

or as a fixed object or as a book

...

that that they can give us courage to

...

to

...

is well in our own lives to face.

...

all of the fears and anxieties that are, you know, are given in the in the human experience.

...

but art allows us to

...

articulate ideas and examine objects

...

and our interaction with them.

...

without immediately resulting to using words,

...

and that is particularly violent valuable, I think, so

...

for people who may have

...

for one reason over another a difficulty,

...

resort towards color movement,

...

tone.

...

you know, become as much tools as protagonists.

...

in pieces of visual art dance on music

...

much

...

much like landscape come to think of it that can become an actor in the movies.

...

directing knows what they're doing.

...

it doesn't

...

take words to

...

release words. Does it?

...

no. And and I I often think that that that words

...

words can

...

really trip us up and get in the way.

...

because words are

...

things.

...

and

...

they can be interpreted the wrong way or they can be translated the wrong way.

...

and I think that

...

a good image

...

which gets us into the world of of metaphor or abstraction

...

can often open up much bigger to than towards scan.

...

that said I'm a huge fan of words, and I think there's a lot to be said for

...

for language.

...

but I also believe that that the

...

there are many other mediums sound and

...

and other things which which give us distance

...

because sometimes words are just too close.

...

and we need distance

...

especially when we're talking again, we're talking about fear here and anxiety.

...

that

...

maybe

...

it's not about getting too close to it.

...

but it's it's finding that right distance from it.

...

that actually allows us to experience it in the in a new way.

...

and give us a new a new idea of how to how to manage it or to confront this.

...

How far do you have to step back? Erica?

...

How far, you have to step back in order to get a perspective

...

and then

...

maybe figure out

...

a way of dealing

...

with the an

...

That's a good question.

...

I

...

because you have to invite you have to embrace it. You have to wrestle with it, but then you have to

...

Yeah. It

...

step away, but how far

...

Well,

...

it's interesting because I mean, because there's a certain amount of it, like, when it's going in

...

your art that that, you know, that you're imposing on yourself and that you're living within

...

Like, i I I think, for example,

...

you know, when we shot naturally ours,

...

I you know, I did that thing that

...

everybody tells you not to do, but I just had a feeling that it was the right move.

...

which was to invest in our own project.

...

and it was the right move. It was absolutely the right move.

...

And and I guess in that case, you know,

...

it was just doing and and and working through and

...

for me, you know, my processing with anxiety off

...

then often involves talking to people in my life that I feel safe.

...

that

...

know that I that I care about and respect

...

And and and and so so certainly, you know,

...

that that's part of my process for for for sort of

...

addressing anxiety. It's also a part of, you know, some of the things that Paul talked about about.

...

you know,

...

getting getting outside going for a walk.

...

it

...

And I and I guess there is that stepping away because there's a

...

stepping away if you're you're if you're

...

going for a walk if you're getting outside, if you're you're going and cooking in the kitchen or

...

or going and digging in the dirt for a little bit.

...

those would... Those would all be

...

I never quite think of of a stepping away because I'm still processing whatever it is that's going on.

...

But but it

...

it certainly... It's kind of processing in a way that

...

that

...

that releases some of the anxiety that's going on in my mind. I

...

there's

...

So maybe be stepping away from it consciously and letting

...

letting things happen.

...

in the background.

...

Yeah. And they still happen. So, like,

...

It really hit me... There was one time this last

...

year where I had a a deadline for a grad to that was due

...

I I think it might've have been due that that evening.

...

And so, you know, with

...

the stress of the deadline.

...

there there was a great deal of pressure and anxiety on me.

...

but I had a a yoga class sort of

...

scheduled and

...

I made the choice

...

to to disconnect for an hour.

...

into that yoga class.

...

in order to calm down my anxiety so I could be more focused afterwards and

...

of course, as it often happens when you do that up

...

when all the ideas start flowing.

...

And i of us sudden the

...

the the ground proposal just came together.

...

Yep.

...

naturally.

...

It's a it's a beautiful thing when that happens.

...

Let's let's take a take a quick

...

historical detour.

...

If we may

...

for

...

for the last part of our our chat

...

and this is a weekly chat. And if you're listening

...

to us for the first time.

...

We hope let you'll be

...

Wow.

...

suit predisposed.

...

to joining us again on that live on the

...

on that Monday night in Europe Monday lunchtime time,

...

the West Coast

...

Monday afternoon in New York City. So historical detail

...

much of much of the first half of the twentieth century

...

was called the age of anxiety.

...

lots of carnage, lots of mayhem.

...

And and artist were there to comment

...

prod, maybe ask questions.

...

And and and I don't just mean Gear.

...

Max Max ernst, for instance, comes to mind. Here's a guy.

...

who was called an enemy alien first by the French then by the Americans.

...

as he

...

was tossed about by the the winds of history as as horrific refugee.

...

and he kept producing un flinch art.

...

all the while.

...

whether campuses or highly symbolic sculptures

...

Have you seen

...

Any artist producing

...

similar works, not similar style, but, you know, ask it works

...

asking similar questions,

...

today or is it is it

...

too early to to tell

...

It's always a tough one talking about

...

other people's work on the I know

...

Oh, are we simply, you know, up to our next

...

in in this in this reality and

...

we haven't been able to

...

to see anything that

...

speaks to that with that.

...

I've been looking at works by one particular to

...

and I'll mention him in the moment, but I'd love to hear

...

from you guys.

...

it's interesting

...

Because lady is christians make out a

...

not so sure.

...

And, again, I think this is about the distance and

...

And when I... When you're talking about Max ernst and who's work, I know very well,

...

and many others from that generation

...

they speak very lovely to me now.

...

and

...

And

...

although what we we face

...

our own trials, which are

...

quite existential.

...

ben what happened in the twentieth century is

...

That was really bad. As as bad as it's ever been.

...

and the the the artistic response to

...

the the horrors of the of the twentieth century

...

for me or so profound.

...

that I think my eyes are still focused there and

...

and I have to admit that

...

I I

...

don't know who

...

who's working in contemporary way.

...

whose work moves me the same way.

...

And maybe it just I haven't discovered it yet.

...

maybe it it it is a matter of of

...

allowing it to steal

...

and

...

the years and the decades between when it's produced and when it is actually

...

able to to sing to you in it's in you know, in a

...

particular

...

particular voice.

...

Yes.

...

have you have you come

...

So

...

across anybody,

...

so

...

I don't know that I'm coming across anybody from, like, contemporary right now, like, a

...

far as

...

as far as dealing with with, you know, the current

...

challenges in the world that's really sort of speaking to me.

...

But what has been really speaking to me as of late

...

is

...

as, you know, sort of

...

Canada,

...

you know,

...

as a whole has really started to finally address

...

the the genocide that that

...

that happened to our first nations. And I don't know who this the

...

I can't remember the the name... Well, some cases, I don't know who the specific artists are.

...

but there has been some amazing

...

amazing

...

pieces that are that are

...

coming coming out of

...

of sort of addressing that genocide and addressing

...

both the recognition of what's happened as well as

...

as the healing moving forward. And and so, you know, in this

...

I'm thinking, actually of a play that

...

I'm trying to its name right now. That when I do know, the artist of i

...

remember the play name. But

...

you know,

...

We think... We can mention it next week.

...

Yeah. And it goes, it goes to that

...

it goes to, you know, what Paul was saying earlier where

...

you know, in those pieces, there's a lot of darkness.

...

there's there's a lot of

...

of

...

grief and tragedy in those pieces.

...

but then there's also

...

what's been coming out of them has also been this almost this release.

...

And this this

...

hope and this healing. And so

...

including

...

So because we had our our first national truth and reconciliation, they

...

last Thursday, there there was all sorts. So

...

sort of events happening across

...

the the country to

...

to to act as a or as A remembering

...

and the reflection as well as a a sort of a processing and a healing

...

and

...

are people people in in in general, and No no. No difficult.

...

to generalize. But I mean, our people let's say people in your

...

bob people in your community,

...

viewing this process as

...

This will make Canada

...

a better place or is it too terrifying or are they

...

sweeping it under the carpet what's going on?

...

Well,

...

Well, you see... So so so for years it was swept underneath,

...

the the the

...

I think I think for years, it wasn't addressed. It was

...

there was a mention of it in in our history books

...

I

...

I

...

my mom's being quite

...

sort of

...

she's been shocked that that more Canadian

...

did not realize or understand the the debt

...

to the magnitude of of what it occurred.

...

and

...

because because there's so many people like, you know, that just

...

seem to have not not recognized, not realized

...

I... You know, and She and I had this conversation

...

sometime in the last week on the phone.

...

because

...

like, I did realize, and and I did recognize, but then that's because I've worked with the

...

first nations in our country. I've seen what that genocide is

...

still doing to generations of of first nations people today.

...

But

...

I also took, you know, courses that... But they weren't

...

the mainstream courses, like, so I took sort of a a course

...

in in high school that that that was on our first nations. I took

...

courses at university in that because I got interested from the course in high school.

...

And then and then through my story telling in my work, I I've

...

I've worked for years with with the first nations.

...

But

...

it would seem that

...

of sort of our

...

non first nations.

...

community within Canada,

...

I

...

myself and my mom

...

you know,

...

would not be the norm.

...

like, so many other Canucks

...

did not realize. And I I don't know. I don't know how you get

...

to my age and and not having realized, but they... But they didn't realize

...

And was it it was it a case?

...

And and I mean, I think, you know, so of that was

...

was it a case as as the song says under the carpet swept,

...

well, that's exactly what it it it was. It was

...

any... You know, and some of that would, you know, fall in line with

...

I think when the first nations first tried to push

...

the envelope more on having it. It addressed. It it was... It was

...

the wrong government.

...

Whereas

...

you know, with with our, you know, with our more recent governments,

...

you know, there has been acknowledgement and and and

...

you know, where a lot more money has

...

specifically being put into... Well, been put into all areas, But but

...

a lot into the arts to to start doing more

...

storytelling and supporting the storytelling

...

around truth and reconciliation in order for

...

that to act as an educational tool as well as for that to act as

...

So.

...

as a processing tool, both for the first nations and

...

for for for the rest, the rest of

...

of of of Canada to understand and begin to process what

...

happened.

...

I

...

art as as therapy

...

for an entire. I I love I love that.

...

Yeah. And it really works

...

well too with, like, you know, with the the cultural

...

you know, the cultural traditions of the first nations that that we have in our country

...

treat. So one of the pieces that I saw come out of last

...

Thursday that really was powerful.

...

was

...

if somebody actually had had... Well, was it was a tick talk video, but it was

...

it wasn't... The part power from part wasn't the Tick video. It was what was filmed.

...

And I'm not sure where it was it look like could've be me art gallery in Vancouver.

...

but they had on the steps

...

to the the gallery. They had

...

some people that were, like, kind of dressed like priests

...

and none, there's a trio, wearing sort of, you know,

...

math, like, in in kind of that

...

that first nations tradition, which is probably... It's a bit more of a West Coast.

...

tradition, which is probably why I'm thinking that it was likely the art gallery of Vancouver.

...

definitely more of a West Coast mask. And

...

And so the the... You know, the mask was white

...

while it was in in that first nations format, it's

...

you know, it it they were obviously supposed they weren't, you know, part of the first nations culture

...

sure. And

...

and then sort of, you know, coming towards them with

...

with the drums ends with the

...

with the cost, and I'm now thinking as I'm saying this, that it was deaf

...

must be the Art Gallery of Because the dress was all west

...

coast personalities nations with the theater hats and and and

...

so of the red cloak and the cedar, the cedar Bar dress, like,

...

tops and everything like that.

...

But you know, they had sort of this multi generation

...

dance sort of and with this

...

huge figure that they they they sort of made

...

that was approaching

...

approaching the

...

the the figures on the steps.

...

and it was, like, you know, kind of and they had

...

like, so they had the elders who'd been in those residential

...

schools,

...

followed by following them, were these children that were dancing

...

the, you know, dance to both

...

I think, share a bit of what had happened

...

as well as to then, you know, move

...

move past that and and and and reclaim

...

their people and reclaim the land. None of this was told in words.

...

this was all sort of an images. So this this is kind of my

...

my take on on the story.

...

and

...

like, it was it was powerful. It was, you know, filled with hope and not uplift

...

thing, but it was also, you know, carried some of the down

...

of the tragedy of what had happened.

...

Yeah. Anxiety comes in many shapes.

...

evidently, and

...

it can

...

affect entire societies, of course,

...

and entire social social groups on the more personal level

...

the side styles I was mentioning before,

...

and I just look up his name. This is this is fish.

...

Butter,

...

fish a Artist living in in london.

...

and his

...

works very

...

personally In fact, they they reflect his personal journey.

...

and looking up

...

if if you wish because they are quite

...

stunning in the in the styling day to me, they

...

they echo Japanese wood block

...

except, of course, the fully modern

...

with window shapes.

...

as show g screens and human shapes as landscape elements.

...

But back to this idea that, you know,

...

words are not always necessary.

...

the colors are are key players.

...

in in those wax.

...

Just to close a question, which

...

comes

...

again and again, in our discussions,

...

about app and it's

...

rightful place in contemporary.

...

discourse.

...

how close

...

Can you comment on current affairs and current events?

...

before you fall pray to the law,

...

of more what do you thankful Paul?

...

Oh, yeah. It's

...

This is the the again, back to distance

...

there's the there's no good arc without it.

...

And when when you're trying to to talk about what's happening right now,

...

it's

...

it it ends up

...

nine times out of ten, what what comes out is actually something we already know.

...

and so we don't have any insight from it.

...

I'm thinking we we just passed the the anniversary of eleven

...

and it's hard to imagine that's twenty years ago now.

...

But I was there and

...

I lived living in in in New York at the time, and

...

And I remember that there was this tremendous need to

...

to

...

deal with

...

what it happens

...

in New York.

...

through art.

...

and

...

Remember that there was this onslaught of plays

...

about fire.

...

Fire who had

...

gone into the towers

...

and

...

and it was kind of excruciating.

...

like, you... It it told us nothing.

...

and in fact, it made me

...

It wasn't just for you like, It was just

...

It

...

it's

...

using the the the situation

...

and and we don't live through it. And so our our internal

...

experience was far greater than the than anything that could be represented

...

on, like, on a one to one level.

...

just it just

...

And in fact, it just made us angry.

...

and

...

and uncomfortable as this doesn't tell anything.

...

And it

...

it was at this time, it's it was a important in my career because the

...

that I I

...

got very and polish drama.

...

and Ended up staging

...

a play by the the great

...

polish play swap,

...

who

...

is if you don't know him you should

...

the amazing

...

enormously prolific polish play. Right?

...

who used

...

who is quite often associated with the theater. They call quote unquote of the

...

third

...

his work is extremely dark and extremely funny.

...

And I staged a play of his

...

when I was in graduate school to time,

...

and the play it's called script.

...

And what the play is is

...

there's two men who suddenly find themselves in a room

...

they're dressed identically

...

and they are

...

incapable

...

of saying what happened and how they got there?

...

of course, as the play progresses, it becomes clear

...

somehow they do know, but they they they don't dare say.

...

and

...

in a kind of all way one is a man of action and one is a

...

Man who chooses the passive way to do nothing.

...

And while they sort of debate on what they should do,

...

the most wonderful stage directions ever as as a

...

a hand of supernatural proportions enters the room.

...

and

...

why describing this is that that

...

that when this play happened in New York, it ended up being quite a sensation.

...

this is a play that was written in the late sixties.

...

it was referring to

...

totalitarian and communism and the other

...

forms of totalitarian. And so that was its

...

so it was very distant.

...

it was a play from the past, and it was an abstract play absurd play.

...

but when we staged it in New York,

...

the

...

it it provided all the distance we needed.

...

and the the play was really an enormous hit.

...

people came and people were laughing and

...

also sort of cropping their pants at the same time, which is sort of how works.

...

and

...

And this was this was a play that had great guitars because it

...

it

...

it was so different and strange and alien

...

And yet it spoke directly to our moment in a way that

...

the one to one plays about the tragedy of the fire never could.

...

And I think that that

...

this is this is why

...

talking about what's happening now is so it's so challenging

...

because our own personal experience of it is so deep.

...

that we have no distance from and and we need that distance in order to kind of

...

gain some perspective on it.

...

you know,

...

And so we end

...

we end on on swap, which is as good a place.

...

and as a good person to end

...

as any as Paul said, if you don't know this guy, look him up,

...

you will either love him or hate him.

...

but it will... But you will not walk away.

...

unchanged. I thank my guests, as I do every week,

...

my faithful farm hands

...

Erica.

...

how coming in from

...

the West Coast of Canada,

...

and the poor budgets are coming in from no anywhere near.

...

Central Poland.

...

This has been the creative firm Rough Helm, and we will see you

...

oh hear you.

...

this time next week. Thank you.

...

and

...

Good night.

...

Thanks, Ray, and thank you, everybody.

...

Goodnight.

Fortune Cookie