The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

Request Access to Fireside

The Future of Entertainment is Interactive.

Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.

Request Access to Fireside

×

00:00

00:00

IN STUDIO

/

The future of entertainment is interactive.

Fireside is where the world's greatest creators go to bring the audience into the story through live, interactive, virtual shows.

Request Access to Fireside

Transcript

...

Good evening.

...

Let's try a little experiment.

...

indulge.

...

take a deep breath.

...

Now breathe out.

...

right then.

...

breathe out.

...

Congratulations. So you've just participated

...

in the natural world.

...

we take it for granted. Don't we.

...

we enjoy it on

...

weekend outing,

...

we fear it's scale and power.

...

we only fear it because

...

we have misunderstood our place in it, I think. But

...

more on that lighter.

...

when asked if we like it,

...

we nod in agreement

...

if we don't know in agreement, might I suggest that

...

You might wanna try not breathing for a while.

...

You'll probably change your mind.

...

And if it exists in nature, there's art of it

...

since the analytic cave paintings of

...

bison and and the things

...

artists have been making attempts at depicting

...

this natural world

...

and

...

usually,

...

inadequate understanding of it.

...

and us in it.

...

when we think of artistic depiction of the the natural world, the first

...

thing that comes to mind, of course,

...

the visual arts

...

comfortable, Turner,

...

George Keith.

...

Mona, I,

...

But, of course,

...

other media and other modalities are also rich

...

represented to help me find some pointers

...

through that vast field about her with me on the creative farm.

...

to tour us studio your regulars

...

helping me

...

Oh, drive the fence post.

...

up over the ridge.

...

Paul.

...

theater and film director,

...

and Edwin Ko,

...

composer and musician.

...

welcome gentlemen to the creative phone again.

...

Thanks, Ralph.

...

Hi.

...

Sorry. I was

...

It's been fine.

...

Find that mute button, adrian.

...

And what Western,

...

photographer, most famous for making peppers look sex

...

see

...

had a snap

...

and snap back at at.

...

when the famous Frenchman explained

...

many years ago,

...

that Western and Adams

...

where being socially a empathetic

...

Ari said the world is going to pieces and people like atoms and Western

...

photographing rocks.

...

So Western snap back

...

it seems so utterly naive.

...

that landscape is not considered of quote unquote.

...

social significance

...

when it has a far important bearing,

...

on the human race of a given

...

time

...

Excuse me.

...

And locality, then the

...

called cities. I love that word.

...

I think Western had a point since you.

...

Yeah. I mean, I think

...

you know, Western

...

the idea that nature says

...

that cities are full of life and

...

nature sure is just objects that we're separate from.

...

I mean, you know, I guess it also goes back to

...

the way that by the visualize sort of

...

you know, in the romantic period.

...

where you had sort paintings and

...

the, you know, the romantic artist is about escaping from

...

the beginning of urban environment into something that

...

with pure, and I think

...

It's a complicated. It's a very complicated so different areas go

...

into this, And I think we're at a point obviously where

...

we're in a

...

moving into the mat, which is a whole other thing.

...

with

...

terms advantages and potential disadvantages, but

...

I mean, I think the sixties are

...

I I'm kind of on the fence about this in some ways in it

...

I don't really subscribe to

...

the romantic tradition in our which I think is a lot of are

...

love of nature than the way that nature to picture circumstances from the

...

least in my the limits understanding of the in recent times,

...

A lot of it seems to be still stuck in that

...

idealized mode. Doesn't it?

...

Yeah. Because I think

...

But thing,

...

if you go back a bit before that,

...

I think is more telling about our

...

relationship we've make what you think is what you're touching on and about I disconnect with it. So

...

for example in England

...

there was

...

huge dissipation people from the land.

...

through the enclosure. So one of my fears is waiting this

...

food is so bad is because we were kicked off the land first and, you know,

...

went into the sixties and had to work in the beginning of the industrial revolution where we also

...

higher that's to the movement. And

...

like

...

So this was food as fuel.

...

Wow. Yeah. I'll say you just, you know,

...

food is about locality and ingredients and being able to

...

you know, kind of

...

each stiffer area. You know, if you it's he has a different

...

a different sort of recipes, even every couple of miles because of

...

the locality of how food grows and other knowledge.

...

different recipes you sort of maintained in passed. But I think what that got lost

...

really quickly in England. And, yeah, it became survival and, course drink.

...

some

...

dealing with it. So

...

so you I think

...

I don't know After the romantic tradition,

...

was part of a a continued

...

you know,

...

process, which is is still going on actually where people mind for some

...

thing that never existed.

...

which isn't the same as nature, but I think

...

there is some connection and the idea of an idea nice past

...

where we were lived in harmony.

...

And i think Obviously seen even england at the moment and many countries is a

...

strong political now it's pushing people back to these sort of ideas.

...

And the thing about any golden age

...

expressed in any age at all is that it never existed that it's always

...

just

...

segment of that age imagination. Isn't it?

...

And that's what's so powerful about it. I mean, it's the same move have any kind of form of nostalgia

...

you can't have it that gives it its power picking.

...

you know, the kind of consumer culture that we live in it's... You can't have it. So you wanna it even more and

...

you know, little strands of it assault is through

...

the media and

...

make it makes it even more only present.

...

But you know, so... yeah. Back the rocks. I mean, I think

...

the Western

...

tradition of we could do with

...

you know, with more rocks definitely.

...

And actually, over lot daring essentially number times is

...

london has got green and quieter in certain this.

...

and it meant definitely makes me want more of that in the cities. And I actually any the reason why

...

why that shouldn't be if.

...

know, we get away from this sort of post american organized shopping model

...

road car culture that has really shaped.

...

city environment, you know, hope for the cities can

...

become something different in the next twenty to fifty years.

...

Oh,

...

three years for the fifteen minute city. Welcome back to the idea of

...

of

...

consumer culture and relationship

...

to the

...

natural surroundings things.

...

sort of the prism of our consumer culture, but let's talk about fame.

...

for a moment.

...

drawing, you know,

...

So Surrounding Kate blanche from York,

...

I'm amit In in Hollywood.

...

there are many many famous actors and musicians

...

putting their names to environmental causes now, but it's usually

...

a case of amps emphasis on the famous rather than

...

the actor or the music

...

or the musician, I guess it's a reflection.

...

on our celebrity med culture,

...

What about actors and musicians?

...

using the craft,

...

to celebrate the natural world and to fight for its protection.

...

that graft and not necessarily their fame. Or is it

...

is it a question of having the most impact

...

And in those stakes, fame beach graft,

...

any day, what do you think? Paul?

...

oh boy.

...

you get... You get the hard one today.

...

Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to follow follow your question here.

...

who

...

Yeah. I'm in no position to speak to fame.

...

I'm I'm certainly not famous.

...

and don't know too many famous people either

...

But

...

certainly.

...

I can see that

...

environmental causes and

...

the cause of nature of has risen risen to the top of most of the

...

and say the

...

celebrity celebrity activist wing.

...

that's out there.

...

Been for obvious reasons

...

clearly the the planet

...

or at least the the planet in terms of human

...

is in a pretty dire straight at the moment. Thanks to our

...

Yes.

...

Well, these these guys have kids too. They can... They can see what's going on.

...

Yes. But

...

You know, I haven't kind a different pack.

...

I I I

...

I grew up in California, and

...

Yes.

...

nature in California is pretty terrifying thing.

...

and nature in the United States generally is is

...

a terrifying

...

thing.

...

It's

...

I'm from Down under your cops, Gaming.

...

Yeah. So you know all about it.

...

And, you know... But

...

what I was growing up, we had

...

horrendous forest fires.

...

during the summer of which they've only gotten the worse of worse.

...

I witnessed several of them

...

up close and personally.

...

that was going up.

...

had to be evacuated from my house and

...

had friends houses get destroyed, and

...

and this was like a kind of

...

yearly thing.

...

In addition, we had horrible earthquakes

...

which I survived several really bad ones.

...

and many many ones

...

So there was always this constant feeling that

...

nature was

...

somewhat mortal threat. On the one hand, it was

...

California is exquisite beautiful.

...

in the natural

...

environment of me, it's blessed, like,

...

tuscan.

...

but

...

drive down that cost highway, but do it

...

do it fast before the sun andreas fault it falls into the sea.

...

Exactly.

...

It's I feel like that's... Oh it that's had a deep effect on me.

...

I have a a a profound

...

love of nature. I love gardening. I love to be in nature.

...

On the other hand, I I also have a a deep

...

I'd say respect that

...

based in fear of nature.

...

because

...

not only of these sort of dramatic things I've talked about

...

know with earthquakes and fires, which is so much part of my

...

my youth, but also

...

we're we're witnessing now

...

the virus.

...

you know, this is another force of nature that's

...

my god so much might hear than us. And

...

as really put us in our place.

...

and I feel that that

...

right now,

...

you know, as opposed to a kind of romantic

...

maybe urging, which is out there. I think what we're really facing is is

...

is the hostile nature.

...

and it's out to... It feels like nature's out to get us.

...

and I think that's

...

mother mother nature says you're gonna mess mess with me. Well,

...

Let's say now.

...

Yeah.

...

So I think

...

Have you seen any recent

...

artistic activity designed to comment on this relationship

...

on not quite yet.

...

to be honest, I haven't, but it it is something that I've been thinking about a lot.

...

Carlos.

...

I I really... I

...

Nobody listening. Just us.

...

I really... I really I really wanted to do a piece

...

about viruses.

...

and

...

what what what got me inspired was

...

during my, you know, sort

...

and was reading about the corona virus and how it worked and

...

getting all caught up in these neurologist conversations.

...

I came across i'm really hit me, which was that

...

viruses

...

are

...

it is debated whether the viruses are the oldest

...

living things on Earth or the second oldest.

...

So

...

because it's not one hundred percent clear that viruses are alive. In fact,

...

it's they they they do some of the things that living in

...

things do, but they don't do others.

...

Yeah. They just... They just be. This is the fascinating thing about the isn't it.

...

Yes. And what's

...

What's remarkable is that the

...

when you get an infection,

...

any infection has the potential to get into your

...

reproductive cells.

...

And if it does that,

...

it will modify

...

itself into your Rna.

...

And

...

should you have then children

...

your children

...

will inherit it.

...

a piece of that virus into their Dna chain.

...

This has been going on for a very, very

...

time.

...

for a very long time.

...

So in fact,

...

one of the ways that

...

that you could describe

...

evolution

...

or even ourselves.

...

is that we are a

...

giant

...

repository of viral of viruses. In fact,

...

that have modified our

...

our Dna in ways that we don't understand, and they're only just now beginning to

...

back

...

and, you know try, what does that? They they can see them now as they map the Dna

...

chain.

...

say well well, the... There's a that's a virus and that's a virus and that's a virus, and that's virus.

...

and we don't know what it does.

...

or doesn't do

...

what it's there and it's it's us.

...

While there are viruses in our Dna and

...

and bacteria in our gut that actually

...

make us

...

make us human. It's it's

...

one of the more fascinating scientific

...

questions out there. I'm sure, but how do you do this and how do you handle this in art?

...

I mean, you don't dress people up in, you know, corona virus.

...

costumes with gobble but sticking out, and maybe that would be ridiculous.

...

any ideas about how you how you're gonna handle this?

...

Well, I mean, I think it's in interesting the at the same time as we have,

...

this handgun pandemic, you know, it kind of worth has become

...

just so commonplace. Let me talk about something.

...

an idea or automatic becoming popular is viral. That's what people

...

aspire to co viral. And

...

in a way the networks that we create to exchange your information, you know,

...

this there's a micro macro going on, and I don't

...

begin to

...

be able to understand or compare what or if there are any

...

resonance is beyond

...

you know, the obvious I've just said, But I mean,

...

you know, I think a lot a lot of

...

what artists seem to do

...

when it you know, certain stranded of our when it moved beyond the romantic

...

condition of trying to kind of

...

replicate

...

imagined

...

pristine of nature.

...

is to actually use the processes

...

And obviously, we're... All, I guess that's not point about we're using viral price

...

to exchange mathematics and ideas. So think

...

the artists

...

you know, certainly sort of post war

...

have done a lot of process based start where they're

...

trying to kind of replicate

...

the uncertainty

...

of how things can progress but within systems. You know? So

...

you set up systems that can create

...

random

...

grow for

...

a random piece that can come out of something that you set the basic rules for

...

Yeah.

...

sort of like, like

...

Brian, he knows, ten thousand paintings.

...

Yeah. Brent well, he talks about this generative art, but, you know, I think that's

...

my identity he

...

has given a name to and sort of pop slightly, But I think, you know, this

...

process based start has been around.

...

for a long time, You know, John Cage, you I mentioned I've got in these things, You know, he

...

you know, he he kind of his whole stuff was about trying to reduce

...

the artist's intention from the work

...

and let them the music just develop.

...

through creating chance operation.

...

I'm setting up you know based on the itching.

...

you know, ways of creating chance

...

events which become

...

part of a composition or a piece of visual art.

...

So, you know, this the and I think i've of course that turn comes from Buddhaism, which is

...

much more kind of compared the Christian

...

So

...

ideas of of control and the Dominion, you know, buddhaism is

...

or of an acceptance in trying to reduce the

...

projection of the human well onto the environment that we live in.

...

And I think you know, so I see that a lot. I see, you know,

...

we talked about in the past and, you know, improvisation is again in kind of

...

extensions the idea where you're

...

trying to get rid of your intention and

...

go into a different pause.

...

you know, the human creative

...

process.

...

And I think these ideas are

...

for me, the kind of interesting in

...

Avenues, the artists have been, you know

...

over the last period of trying kind of

...

understand how can

...

relate and refer to nature.

...

Yeah the great biologist you Wilson, whom we have mentioned

...

mentioned on this program before in his

...

his book, the origins of creativity, which is actually

...

just open on my

...

Kindle now, so I can I can actually remember it's title, not

...

phenomenon that happens to often, but he talks about creativity

...

in terms of genetic development.

...

that creativity as as a biological

...

phenomenon and it's... And it's

...

quite quite a fascinating thing.

...

This is the creative farm, and I'm rough time and I'm talking to

...

my good difference in fellow farm hands

...

po jitter,

...

better and

...

film director and Adrian Cooker

...

musician composer and man in charge of

...

independent music labels. If

...

you have

...

an idea or three to throw into the pot.

...

per tradition to raise your hand or sort of wave in our general direction.

...

and we'll throw

...

microphone in your general direction and hope it lands

...

when it needs to land. Paul, I'd like to just come back for a second two

...

that idea of

...

viral as theater.

...

How would you handle that?

...

Oh, is it the other way, Theater has neurology.

...

Yes. Well, theater is is a kind of the virus

...

Yes.

...

or you do get infected and it stays with you for life. We know this, but

...

it is not the only creative virus that's out there. But I mean, how would you

...

how would you create a play?

...

on the idea of

...

is virus.

...

interacting with us over

...

you know,

...

hundreds and thousands of years.

...

Yeah.

...

I'm not sure how how I would stage this. I

...

But but as Adrian said, for sure,

...

what I would do is start start a process and

...

that process would start with a lot of research.

...

which I've already... Which I've already done fair bit of

...

and then you try to see

...

where that

...

where that research starts to to set off some interesting bells in your head.

...

And

...

and

...

for... For example,

...

in the theater, you

...

does so many different directions you can go.

...

and

...

But

...

in this project, what I was initially thinking about was

...

was to see the map

...

And

...

to to visualize

...

Dna individualized

...

the the actions of viruses

...

it has been done, you know?

...

Watson quick? You know,

...

Yeah. No. I it's it it it's been done and yet,

...

when you get into the theater, then

...

then you're getting into getting into the

...

this very intimate human environment

...

and

...

what I keep thinking about was that

...

the theater

...

was shut down immediately when the pandemic happened.

...

and that's always been the faint of theaters and plagues.

...

and

...

so that the the theater is a

...

a health hazard.

...

it's a place where people gather in very intimate setting

...

and

...

exchange

...

families and exchange viruses. In fact,

...

And so

...

So would you just stage a play with nothing in it and then just wait

...

two weeks and say, well, he here is

...

Or or you know what you...

...

or if someone walked on... It's like if someone walked on stage today,

...

the old thing was, like, if you walk on stage and say fire,

...

Right? You could cause a stamped

...

And so this was banned. You can't do that.

...

you know? But what if today, if an actor walked on stage,

...

and, you know, did a long of way from hamlet and then said, by the way, I've got Covid.

...

by the way,

...

you know, there there would be that moment where

...

you know, you

...

this is why I thought it'd would be interesting because because we... We're... It's such a fragile situation.

...

And now when you go to the theater, where they we're

...

separated by

...

distance like you can't sit directly next to anyone you

...

have to wear a mask the entire time.

...

And so we're we're living in this very tentative situation, and when people cough, which

...

they do in the theater. You

...

you're out of the play because you're wondering oh my god. Is that guy looks like I have Covid.

...

and

...

or whatever. And

...

so like, this entire situations, and me seems like

...

an interesting way to

...

talk about

...

to talk about viruses. In fact, talk about the history of viruses.

...

and this

...

that here we all are all altogether in this enclosed environment, which

...

is

...

unhealthy.

...

which is maybe two Intimate is part of what makes it special.

...

it's erotic. It's close. It's about exchange.

...

and

...

yep know, the theaters in the past were always associated with

...

with prostitution,

...

and the body

...

So it's something about

...

super intimacy, but we about viruses, then you're talking about the

...

There's just a little tub bloody intimate.

...

this exchange, which is going on in this invisible exchange.

...

It's a little too bloody intimate.

...

Yeah. Exactly.

...

And so this is I think what I

...

somehow where I would wanna to start

...

with the piece about viruses is to is to really

...

talk actually about where we are in this room.

...

the small dark room together, how close we all are.

...

all of the things that were all the air that were now sharing

...

the

...

the sweat

...

that's flying off my skin and landing on your face.

...

all those kinds of things

...

that

...

would put us into a confrontation with what viruses is actually all about.

...

Well, how about we have

...

greater farm special

...

and

...

have a little spit bowling session.

...

about about this subject that sounds fascinating.

...

Leo, welcome. Welcome to the creative

...

family aloha lovely to see you little avatar pop pop

...

Again, haven't heard from you in a in a couple of weeks.

...

Right have you been hiding it?

...

Not on the farm. Unfortunately, I missed

...

you guys are lot

...

No. No. No. We've been, you know, how to work here.

...

Yes. Yes. No. I

...

at work somewhere else off the farm.

...

But

...

Now else what what

...

nature Nature keeps calling me back.

...

oh, I... What have you got what do we get to to to throw into the pot?

...

I was wondering as as we kept mentioning in the

...

beginning around

...

So just different

...

properties of nature and how they inspired and so on.

...

to what extent can nature itself be

...

because obviously, everything was

...

created or created itself.

...

and then my question would be if

...

if nature makes an art in the forest that nobody sees it,

...

if it still are, you know, to what extent does it need a human observer?

...

Ladies and gentlemen. That's

...

laura who has this inevitable knack

...

picking out questions that I'm going to ask about half

...

and asking them now. But let let's let's go down that path. Let's go down that.

...

Have I downloaded again.

...

Oh, I let's go down that that that forest path

...

and and examine

...

this relationship of

...

nature with art, not just us.

...

and artist with Because that, of course,

...

brings up all matter.

...

all manner of interesting questions, and

...

Yes. If there is

...

I'm art something

...

and there's no one that witnessed it have we just had

...

art happened or not.

...

But, I think

...

one things that

...

is guy a recent

...

development in musical competition is the use of

...

field recordings and

...

began with the invasion of tape machine in the second world war.

...

and then you could record sand that manipulate it.

...

other thing you could do by developing different microphones is

...

record very different things you can with a hide your phone record

...

the sounds under underwater and

...

because water is dense. Obvious thing.

...

the sound carries further so you can hear sounds that have been

...

made

...

ten miles away with a microphone, which Obviously can't be so easily

...

with a normal microphone in the air because the

...

doesn't carry the sound so well over that distance.

...

Or, light likewise, you can record something that you wouldn't normally hear. Like I just saw actually a while ago,

...

someone just said I've been and enjoying hearing a snail eats access today

...

and someone just made a recording of that thing course.

...

we don't actually hear. You know, I mean, even if we do get

...

your snow and have a garden with the last, You know, the scale and the

...

sound is so

...

so quiet

...

do you have such

...

catch both of those things or you have to catch a snow the letters to get own.

...

That's that's there's a woman who's

...

been traveling to the the nordic somewhere

...

towards the arctic circle not quite as far. No. But

...

she goes into the forest and she photographs

...

and records squirrels.

...

one of the things that I saw that was an utterly delightful

...

little level cameo was

...

Let's scroll eating

...

like a peanut she brings peanuts, which, of course,

...

great thing for for squirrels and the

...

little squeeze of delight that were emanating from this little little

...

little credit where

...

Absolutely Fabulous, Of course, we don't hear them ordinarily.

...

I don't sell a lot of science.

...

because the things that are making them are so small. They're very high pitched

...

So actually, some sense, you actually have to slow down in order to bring them down into

...

the human here and register.

...

So, you know, there are all these things that people are doing

...

as means have kind of given you different insights into

...

nature, you know, since Like documents it, but

...

but, you know, using technology to kind capture and to give you different perspectives,

...

apps would have being possible before

...

before recorded sand and certain technologies give you different

...

microphones. I mean, you know, there's a piece

...

that I heard

...

There was in a gallery and

...

it started off with someone that recorded the sounds

...

under Sand. So the first sounds that you heard

...

and it was like a a narrative piece.

...

So it started off with my

...

friends buried on the sand jeans in a desert.

...

and the sound of the sand grow and as these big

...

big massive bodies of censorship shift

...

was the first you heard because

...

what does that sound? Like? We don't know. You know, but

...

this is what the eyes is captured and and the the whole note of the piece was it moved up

...

from underneath the sand up onto the surface of the sand where you

...

small creatures moving around on the surface.

...

up into the air and finally up into the sky,

...

you hear the birds above the desert. And so, you know, artists doing these kind

...

the pieces

...

I mean, I I was just thinking earlier about how you talking about land and

...

nature for the land speak like Robert Smith, you know, sixties.

...

who did the spiral Jet and he did our works around lightning and

...

this there's a tradition of, you know, some very

...

and I think a lot of this art is actually becoming more

...

influential, maybe in the sixties, it was not

...

There was always seen as, you know, above this this

...

can't be captured and sold.

...

is not

...

depiction. I mean, the romantic

...

paying to or the poet was about, you know,

...

something that could be a book of poems or or or a

...

or patient, you know know, but but this

...

pi of art is very exponential, and it's much harder to

...

modify it and sell it into a art market. So it is in just sort of

...

it just looks around

...

But I think that is where we are going nothing

...

the art i is

...

generally much more exponential now, and

...

takes lot the ideas that we kinda started after the war in the fifties and sixties, but goes

...

further with them.

...

by passion sort of

...

some of the commercial assumptions that you need to take on board in order

...

So you're up someone

...

The the spiral jet if memory serves,

...

was created as an intervention.

...

I think to prevent

...

you know, near shore drilling.

...

And that, of course, brings us

...

through the subject of art

...

being political and, of course,

...

I think we're all old enough.

...

To remember the statement that everything is political,

...

And especially the natural world, of course, it has always been

...

political. If you think about it,

...

including, for instance such

...

awful ideas as the noble savage

...

but i we'll skip that one because it's just too awful.

...

Much art has been political over along

...

time also,

...

But

...

Today, we have a situation where it's impossible impossible to

...

entangled as it were nature's threads from

...

the raise wire of politics.

...

And

...

given that art only exists if we exist

...

to what extent do you think should artists

...

place this kind of

...

existential emphasis on that work. How loudly

...

should artists shout

...

from the creative pulpit as artists.

...

and not just as individuals.

...

Well, I mean, I think it's up to the individual artist.

...

I think that there's an argument for our exists

...

an independent of the political world. I mean, I think the

...

time we're now in where

...

The actual fabric of everyone's everyday life is so, obviously

...

on the line and people can

...

see where the worth this kind of

...

pass being forged to

...

you know, I think it's everyone's jobs try

...

be

...

aware of and try

...

know, if they don't want those paths to develop, do what they can to

...

create other possibilities. But, you know,

...

I don't know. I mean, Most since I do

...

and directly critical in the

...

I look at.

...

how the people I work we've treated, I look at

...

you know, the actual kind of environment that the work is created in

...

but not

...

wanting to make statements. I mean, the sixties seem to be

...

you know,

...

political statements, and I think that's become slightly

...

well, it it did become slightly outdated. I mean, who knows? You know, name?

...

what artists are doing in terms of that, but

...

I think

...

mean, to me.

...

it's because talking of nature that that and politics

...

the thing that it all comes back to the land and

...

we we we kind of got bored into system where the land already

...

what it was and it's divided up, and it begun before we were born before a parents for grandparents

...

born. So we got born systems where things were as they were, we

...

we kind of

...

we

...

we just

...

we inherited that and over time, you just have to

...

people seem to have kind of gone along with it and

...

maybe the past narratives got lost

...

at some point, but I know in no, there seems to be a lot of

...

people talking about land and thailand

...

was basically starting enough people in, England not very complicated

...

It it it basically stole a lot of land that was common land that was

...

you know, someone described it as the national health, but it was the resource

...

of the common people

...

and it was starting off and so they no longer had that resource. So they were pushed into

...

into kind of having to pay

...

give their labor so that they could get money to get some of that resource back.

...

and

...

I mean, I did a law degree in my late thirties I I just

...

like, why. Suddenly me understand in Hiring england did

...

you know how a how the wealth from the stocks you developed it was just fast and then

...

know, that system was excellent to other countries.

...

and that's really the story of Britain in, like, two sentences i'm

...

or many historians who I been disagree with me with us.

...

how i how I see it And so, you know,

...

nature. And I was said before the dramatic poets and

...

you know, even in England in the early twentieth century,

...

you know, there's people like born williams and and talking, you know, go to the rings.

...

supposedly that again, was this this

...

this recognition of of a need to imagine a better

...

sure place.

...

the only twenty century guess it was the end of of of all the kind of horrors

...

victorian industrialization and child labor

...

you know, the other i has men didn't work because they would try

...

expensive. So there's only women and children that worked. And

...

anyway. So

...

So, yeah, you know, they learn weirdly, all that kind of

...

imagine narrative of the past and this imagined

...

Perfect close.

...

This is an adam courtesy argument. That's but sounded very interesting. He said that a lot of people that

...

carved up the middle east went over to the Middle east.

...

with these ideas, so there's a token right order of the range and

...

born Williams wrote the send from, I do this magical past that

...

existed before the industrial age.

...

so when they did all the deal, the deals,

...

they wanna deal with modern

...

politicians in the Middle east. They wanna steal with the shape

...

the people lived higher in the desert because for them, that represented this

...

fashionable idea that was

...

happening at home in England that these people represented something pure.

...

and and been lost.

...

she that internet too good. But

...

No. That there were that were possibly other folk living living around

...

the same in the same areas.

...

Exactly.

...

this this this entire

...

And environmental art movement, we were talking about a second gap

...

including land art,

...

with

...

artists exploring

...

ways to work with landscape with land formations.

...

And with time,

...

that is

...

probably most closely

...

related to nature art related to nature.

...

of the level of materials and at the level of performance space.

...

I'm thinking agnes Dennis,

...

planting. What was it Lakers? Three because of

...

of land near Wall Street with

...

with week and then harvesting the wheat.

...

then andy God's were arranging leaves into

...

kind of vo into the the the natural world.

...

So

...

the idea of using nature as a

...

as

...

working material.

...

where where is this going?

...

have you seen any particular into

...

new stuff because God's word been around for many years.

...

and agnes did her work in what early eighties?

...

What are you saying? That's

...

that's really interesting of light.

...

And leo please please piper If you have

...

if you have ideas around that,

...

And in fact, I see we have we have Robert robert You love with us.

...

Robert is is a

...

writer and and art critic

...

hiding from San Francisco.

...

currently over the side of the pond Robert if you, if you've got

...

ideas around

...

anything that we we're we're talking about, please do

...

So there's one quick one

...

do to come in.

...

Mister Sc is an nice Richard skeleton in England,

...

Yeah.

...

there's a power and very much interested with

...

landscape memory

...

arch energy

...

different areas is that a kind of in the in in the landscape,

...

and he makes music about it, and they he's got his own publisher her. So

...

i mean, some of that... I know and

...

his work is very interesting and that work in that field it's a new artist.

...

I'm thinking back

...

a few decades to

...

And now on on the on the on musical front specifically,

...

I'm thinking back to the work of Phil by the name of Jim Norman.

...

who may or may not be familiar?

...

he was a composer I think is

...

he might not be with us anymore.

...

he was a composer, but also an an experimental

...

in making sound sculptures through collaboration with animals.

...

Again, in the in the early

...

eighties. I think so let's have in his early eighties.

...

he did an album that was rather boring

...

titled

...

playing music with animals

...

but it was actually quite exquisite.

...

and

...

each minute was that was a joyful surprise. It's some

...

titled

...

And I'll I just looked it up

...

into space is communication with three hundred thirties, twelve wolves,

...

and twenty Or oils

...

it has pieces on it such as

...

alone wolf,

...

howling

...

and

...

Jim playing the

...

harmoni

...

with the howling. It's it's quite

...

with a primal experience I Have to say it's it takes

...

text the listener into a space. That is

...

So it made different from

...

listening to the

...

usual top forty on the radio.

...

this is kind of the whole point of

...

land art and these kinds of

...

found sculptures that are rooted

...

in in nature well. It's it's about taking us into spaces

...

spaces that where we don't normally go, isn't it?

...

Janice, not it's called Bernie Kris as well.

...

American sand artist, k r a u double s.

...

is a pioneer of a lot of this and

...

I'll try

...

crises work no. But, yeah, he's

...

he's

...

he's very interesting.

...

And real relation to Allison and Cross, the they

...

I don't need so much.

...

until you know carry a

...

the blue grass singer who is utterly fantastic.

...

k r a u s e.

...

So

...

Okay.

...

I don't think he's a

...

his idea is basically that, like, an environment is like a whole orchestra

...

So within in it There is, like a

...

an existing harm hormone harmonious

...

composition.

...

that covers

...

the antarctica, and you can hear that

...

you can hear how... Un unwell an environment is by

...

kind of what isn't in that composition.

...

I mean, is his work is, you know, go... It's much more profound than that that is a

...

one aspect of it that you

...

So this is like taking

...

racial Carson ideas, and

...

bringing them into the present day and realizing that there are entire

...

sections of instrumentation that are that I've never have died off in the last

...

few decades.

...

well is the the whole of a a natural environment is like a

...

song that is interconnected

...

So

...

you know, within that

...

is a really profound complex set of communication.

...

and

...

Yeah. You know?

...

the interconnected of the sound as well.

...

because we perceive things as has been separate. You know, we hear

...

a bird i mean hear

...

you know,

...

we hear a fox, and we don't hear the connection between them obviously,

...

in the natural world, all these sounds are

...

ultimately,

...

connected and there's some dialogues as well in between some of these things.

...

maybe, you know, the... Maybe it's more profound and

...

I mean, his work, I I I only know it.

...

a lot of this work i think, you know, you have to actually experience it and

...

some of it is, you know,

...

you can read about it and you can pick up some of the

...

basic for philosophy of few good. I think, you know, you've gotta hear it. And he's he's one of the eyes that I

...

I'm aware of, but I I missed an exhibition of his that was in London. I mean, my is

...

sixties or seventies nine.

...

is this

...

Is this along the lines of artists taking on

...

environmental degradation and climate change more and more.

...

I think his work just been around before.

...

before we realized how bad it was,

...

I don't think it was it's explicitly about climate change box you think

...

Yeah. I think obviously

...

touches on it f and

...

to do with nature kind of reflects some degree

...

that

...

and parts of nature that

...

no longer that. I guess it's it's the.

...

of the subject matter.

...

that

...

has something to do with that. We mentioned

...

Michael Pin pollution pat pods for for instance,

...

a while ago, but there has been

...

A lot of interesting art created

...

by means of technology

...

And, I guess that's a reflection of

...

how the problem came about to begin with, So only fair that

...

the technology should be used to to express the art, but

...

there is a there is an artist artist an engineer called

...

Dan Rosa who

...

among other things he created

...

what he calls smoke free does,

...

great The first one in was beijing High.

...

One of the

...

much polluted Chinese cities.

...

And the idea very basically you put a guitar. It sucks in.

...

it's quite a an attractive piece of architecture. That's not very tall.

...

sucks in the one end,

...

you know, cleans that

...

scr it and and spits it out the other end and

...

in essence, it creates a sort of a micro climate micro fair

...

of cleaner air around it and this idea

...

is not being transparent. This this project has been translated to a number of other

...

of the cities, but

...

there is a project that I've just seen recently

...

that is particularly an elegant and it's called.

...

ink

...

ink with a k, not... Where see it's an ink

...

not a corporation.

...

by by I'm sharia, who is an Mit, researcher.

...

And he went you went home apparently to October to Mumbai,

...

and

...

couldn't breathe decided that that's

...

there was there was something yet to do about it. So now he's created this project where

...

this now is just spinoff off it the startup. Fact,

...

an artistic startup where

...

they

...

collect dirt

...

from from the air.

...

turn it. Means of, you know, a chemical technological process turned into

...

ink

...

for artists to use

...

And and Says

...

the more

...

the more art they create the the less pollution there is

...

something wonderful about that.

...

What about artists musicians?

...

and actors not playing

...

to emphasize air notion. What do you think about that idea Paul?

...

somehow, inevitably, we're moving into June Cage country again, but

...

how about some

...

the play being

...

I'm I'm I'm not playing i'm play.

...

You mean not understood this

...

somewhere out and make some

...

random piece of ground and

...

we invite the audience to

...

to watch something like this.

...

something like that gather, sit down.

...

and then people set on on the stage and nothing happens.

...

that's been done. There's

...

everything's been done.

...

Yeah. Yeah. There's been a lot of that.

...

but

...

I was actually thinking of

...

as we're talking, I was thinking of of a performance that I saw that

...

that that I thought was

...

that really brought the the nature into the theater.

...

And

...

This was a a performance of King Veer, which I saw

...

God.

...

years ago now,

...

it was in poland, but it was a a Dutch

...

company that came into did it. And

...

the thing was really extraordinary about it is that

...

the stage was covered in in pete.

...

And so the the theater just

...

have this incredible snow.

...

of

...

you know.

...

wet pete.

...

And

...

when it got to the heath, the the same machine of

...

veer raging on the heels.

...

They got an artificial mainstream going

...

may they have these

...

visible, like nineteenth century

...

thunder lighting machines going.

...

And so you had

...

and and a rain machine so there was water over the stage.

...

but

...

So a sort of sort of a steve skin sensibility about it.

...

yes. Is very steam punk, except that that you had this this

...

mountain of of

...

earth and and pete, and it's the whole theater once i once it got wet, and that's

...

in it really stuck

...

and it it just... You were absolutely in this snow of birth

...

And

...

the the actors were were really great and they end up, you know,

...

soaking wet, and they take out their clothes and they're standing their naked.

...

And then

...

I think it was, like four or five pigs came on the stage.

...

and really

...

the really massive pigs, not the cute

...

little pink ones, but the really hogs gigantic animals actually

...

and they suddenly were on the stage.

...

couple couple hundred kilo

...

kilograms per per piece.

...

yeah

...

Yes.

...

and they were... They were on stage and the actors were naked, like, standing amongst

...

them

...

and

...

I'll never forget it as an image.

...

because it was it it it

...

it was so overwhelming.

...

because you

...

The the the smell it was overwhelming and the the

...

the vision of these animals on stage, which you're so huge and and

...

when you see naked people next to pigs, it's really quite something because we look quite

...

some more to to pigs actually.

...

same color almost. And

...

and the actors

...

to me seem to be in

...

pretty serious peril.

...

these are big animals, and there are a lot of them.

...

And

...

And it was one of the those few pieces where I actually saw that that

...

this is this is nature nature has has come. It's

...

it's in the room now.

...

and with animals,

...

you have no idea what they're going to do.

...

you

...

and it demands to be seen.

...

Yes. And you... And there's no control anymore.

...

And the the the the veeder, we all somehow understand that this is

...

as as intense it may ever get. We we we

...

intimately, and deeply know that it is totally controlled. Everything we are seeing

...

has been done for a reason.

...

And let's... You know, maybe swan forgot a line or maybe there's some little accident

...

But generally speaking, it's all planned. But, if you

...

put five pigs on the stage

...

you no fucking idea what they're going to do.

...

and and

...

I it's stuck with me because, of course, the

...

is a profound play about existence itself and veer

...

as a as an image of humanity, you know,

...

shouting at the thunderstorm and

...

when those pigs came out,

...

taken altogether it was such a

...

such an amazing experience of of nature

...

colliding with

...

the art artists of the theater, the construction of the theater

...

and there there were really moments there were... I I couldn't agree I had no idea

...

was going to happen.

...

And

...

What did these poker do? Did they sort of hang out and and do do what

...

Yeah.

...

Yeah.

...

what pork do, you know, rot the peak or they

...

sort of just lie down and and and and have have a very time

...

What did they do?

...

they were rooting around and

...

a woman who

...

was dressed like a peasant

...

came on came on stage and through some

...

corn, I think,

...

and they started eating it and living around on it.

...

and

...

it was just such a potent image

...

I think that's one of those... One of those that I'll never forget.

...

And but there been... I I've actually seen

...

many performances which have played

...

with bringing the natural element into this

...

in balanced did a lot of this.

...

I saw one of her pieces where

...

she had a

...

huge amount of water on the stage and pools and waterfalls, wet

...

box, a whole piece built around that.

...

one of our more most famous early pieces right at

...

spring was also done on a

...

some sort of earth in the stage

...

So the dancers were

...

dancing on the earth.

...

I think that there's been there there's a long tradition of this of of of

...

trying to bring

...

the natural world in some way into the theater,

...

and that element of

...

that's uncontrollable.

...

So water, fire earth,

...

all of these are elements which have always been played within the theater because they bring this

...

they bring nature itself into focus.

...

So the the try of the natural world, but what about

...

What about

...

we

...

to close

...

we talk about the refuse of of

...

of our modern civilization.

...

artists seem to be creating works

...

that speak directly

...

to the origin of that of that waste.

...

consumer culture.

...

sculptures made out of

...

plastic rubbish.

...

and other such things, so lips comes

...

bristol waves.

...

is a work that

...

I've seen a lot of photographs that I haven't actually been to Bristol.

...

but that is a particularly good example, I think shocking

...

and it's beauty. The she's got hundred

...

thousand disposable water bottles

...

that form waves and

...

out of those a great while.

...

comes rising out.

...

and the whale is made of worker.

...

cycling of plastic tech into a next

...

extreme artistic, and there are many other

...

examples of this, but but we can't upc all the millions of

...

tongues

...

of the stuff that keep getting spat out.

...

into the trash heaps and and and into the revision the oceans, we need to stop

...

making it

...

up.

...

certainly has head a hand in paradigm shifts in the past.

...

Are we hopeful gentlemen that a paradigm shift

...

in how we view pollution

...

for instance,

...

and what we should or can be doing about it.

...

is coming.

...

what we have black moment

...

i'll be going anywhere fast. I mean, it's sort about

...

facial growth, and it's about

...

you know, abstract assistants using using

...

you know, computer networks to just

...

trade

...

invisible resources, that

...

the people that sit

...

when the computer screen don't have any connection to

...

I mean, that's that's interesting interesting

...

climate change that that it brings it all home. But, you know, if you don't wanna believe that the rain

...

window the flood that... Yeah. Again, happens in London.

...

she's talking

...

kind of weak now

...

Oh and and in Italy and in China,

...

But you can say what.

...

i

...

just in the last in the last twenty four hours.

...

it's right and you live in a place on on

...

know of the places that are

...

you know, the expensive real estate are generally

...

higher ground anyway. So, you know, deeper ways.

...

you these kind of things. So, you know, they just live on the hill somewhere and they just ignore it and they

...

reading newspapers, and look at websites and use websites

...

I you tell them

...

what they or think they know,

...

I can help them make them a visceral connection.

...

rather than looking

...

as they may be

...

Well,

...

at the world through levels of

...

levels and levels of abstractions.

...

I just think there's a

...

I think that money and arts always had a ten years relationship

...

the art that kinda of threatens the narrative of the money

...

is never

...

heard loudly, you know, they art that can be

...

it doesn't get paid that well.

...

No. The art can be sold a profit after

...

two years been on new wall in Downhill hill.

...

is gonna always trumpet it. So

...

well these... You know, maybe you always has been nice system in now is definitely case

...

so

...

you got be optimistic. I think, you know, I'm not the

...

people behind meet younger than me, particularly twenties i I've got, you know, a bit

...

between tea to make. I think it's asking that problem is the fully said that

...

don't try and change the system, just set up parallel ones, and I think there are

...

numerous

...

green shoots of parallel systems that being

...

Parallel systems that render the

...

original obsolete.

...

that's after hope thing yeah.

...

Well,

...

A question.

...

if I may

...

please

...

So does art

...

make mates

...

more immediate than or does it?

...

add a layer of

...

abstraction

...

Alright. All what

...

always add a layer of obstruction by virtue of what it is, but

...

would you be interested in saying that piece of nature? Where it not

...

for that piece of art.

...

What do you think? Chap?

...

I think it depends on the art, I think that so is... I think, you know, trying to

...

create

...

nature as those think

...

Yeah. Is One's gonna fail some degree, but

...

there's there's less direct means of communicating

...

some of

...

nature's force, which may be the the most successful

...

a lot

...

manages to do

...

I mean, you know, were even if it's just the

...

even it's just showing the kind of

...

ego and the intention of art is to

...

create based on a a plan and a premise and a training

...

and something amazing and complex and beautiful is created.

...

in an instantaneous combination of

...

many different

...

individual voices or instruments instrumental

...

Mean, I'm thinking

...

kind of improvisation thing, but

...

I think, you know, i

...

can just... Your pay limitation or not can

...

do something

...

Yeah.

...

gives you an insight into

...

something that is greater than that.

...

Well, I'm hopeful that we do see paradigm shift

...

soon and I think we are saying

...

glimpse.

...

of a paradigm then shift

...

and I'm hoping helping that

...

art will be there to

...

help with long and to document it.

...

Or else or else

...

we should perhaps go and look at

...

the work of a catalog artist viral,

...

who combines plastic rubbish with

...

animal skeletons.

...

and hope that that is not a glimpse of things to come with somber image

...

results on that submarine note.

...

I say. Thank you again, to Adrian Coca and Paul.

...

and Leo laura,

...

for sticking your your your noses into

...

creative farm and where we will

...

so you all hear you again.

...

all the great

...

next Monday. Thank you.

...

and good night,

...

Thank you, Night.

...

Good goodbye.

Fortune Cookie