The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

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...

Well,

...

I'm not sure.

...

I'm not sure if artists who settle

...

give up on the pursuit of the new and the worthwhile.

...

let's it would take more pre, than I can master

...

to make that statement. I am however,

...

pretty certain

...

that the converse is true artists who keep searching for the new

...

and the worthwhile do not settle.

...

I think a certain

...

restless.

...

does help in the process

...

of searching for what one hopes to find regardless of whether or not

...

one has any real idea as to what that might be.

...

over the last

...

eighteen months, Of course.

...

most of us have had

...

the ability to travel freely

...

constrained somewhat

...

so we may have traveled in our heads

...

using other people's impressions in words,

...

or pictures or sounds

...

i took for to show our own

...

impressions, but there's nothing quite like being

...

physically lost in coaching.

...

when the light begins to fade and

...

you're worried that you don't have enough high speed film to capture the

...

meta morph of day.

...

in tonight to help me and unravel

...

the central aloha of travel and getting lost

...

and the need

...

to feel displaced and out of your depth,

...

I have with me to regular on the

...

creative fun Erica Hard, writer, producer, and

...

creator of other worlds and poor.

...

theater and film director and Dwell in other worlds. Welcome.

...

birth to the creative farm. Give me a hand with

...

moving some of that hay into the loft.

...

Hi, Ralph.

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glad to be here

...

after a bit of a bit of a brief,

...

What is it? What is it about?

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moving through landscape, interacting with people

...

you didn't know.

...

until a moment ago,

...

looking at

...

history and geography through your own eyes that in the forms,

...

our output as artists or can do

...

You both muted guys.

...

I've just checked like, start texting fall to say

...

something up. Sorry. Can you... Can you

...

can you repeat that? Race?

...

Yeah. The the the act of moving through landscape,

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and and interacting with with humans whom you

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didn't know.

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until

...

a few moments, prior, and and engaging with

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the geography in the history of a place.

...

three your own eyes. What is it about all that that

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informs what we do.

...

Well, I think

...

you know, part of

...

part of telling a story is to to sort of

...

be able to understand the different

...

layers to

...

you know,

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humanity to personalities,

...

to

...

to characters. And in order to do that,

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your own layers are other people's layers above

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both. And I think, you know, through sort of

...

exploring and getting to know other people and people that

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you know, might have had different

...

you know, we think travel, you know, might have had different, you know, sort of

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sort of

...

cultural upbringing then the the new head or

...

you know, have been presented with different

...

situation throughout their life. I I think you

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you both get to... You you you get to understand different people

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perspectives and different people's ways of thinking, but you also

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then ultimately, reflect on your own way of thinking. And

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and, you know, and and consider

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you know,

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then learn more about your own personality in the process as well.

...

But, it's also. It's it's the physical act of

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of moving that actually is helpful

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in itself, not just, you know, getting hit to other people's cultures, which is

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kind of

...

No.

...

part of the territory, But but actually, just being

...

in motion that that helps, doesn't it?

...

Well, so I have a a different

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outlook on motion now that I probably did twenty years ago.

...

just, you know, having

...

having been kind of

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you know, sort of having having my my world sort of

...

brought in a little bit bit more closed after after my car

...

Mhmm.

...

Now. I should say that. And well, I've have actually done

...

know probably

...

you know, more travel than a lot of people during that time. So

...

but it was... It still become a bit more of a

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a smaller

...

world

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then then for me, then it... Then it was

...

previously just in the sense that I... You know, I'm not out

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in a about and and engaging out in society quite

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as much

...

Now as I did then, however,

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in some ways,

...

I'm I'm traveling further and

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exposing myself to more people, but

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but in a different way. So so I don't

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I don't know but necessarily

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you know,

...

I mean, certainly, the movement of of experiencing a different place of

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of observing, you know, what

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going on around you, but once again the observing isn't necessarily movements.

...

So

...

Yeah. I mean, well, certainly. I mean, movements it will

...

a healthy thing, but it also allows one to process

...

and and and all sorts of things like that,

...

but I don't think necessarily, like, you know,

...

getting to know

...

a culture or and or sorry, You know,

...

making your story richer by with your care

...

and things like that necessarily has to do with with

...

pull.

...

with movement. I do know, like, you know, certainly if I'm thinking about some

...

things sometimes I'll move around just just because

...

you know, doing something else while I'm thinking like, when I was preparing for

...

Mhmm.

...

the Ted four saw talk I gave.

...

I wandered around the city of Warsaw, like, you know, just just walk

...

and sort of, you know,

...

you know, going through my talk so that I

...

was physically moving so that I took my my

...

my eyes off the page, it allowed me to to

...

to to, you know, kind of just because I... Because I knew I had to stick

...

to my my eighteen minute a allotted of time. Right? So

...

So,

...

Yeah. I did that did that change the nature of the talk

...

that the the moving and the experiencing

...

contribute to to what you ultimately presented.

...

No. I mean, certainly, you mean, the moving within the

...

talk

...

No no. I mean, moving around the city.

...

because because the movement within the talk was part of the talk,

...

it it contributed to to

...

to my being able to

...

to to

...

to get off of off of the page and and sort of

...

be kind of living and

...

breathing the talk with without necessarily

...

it matter what was kind of

...

That's how that's how it helped me. It didn't... It didn't help me, like,

...

there is other things that I think contributed to my story telling

...

from conversations I had with you on that trip from

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exploring around some of things I saw from from, like, kind of thinking of

...

some of the historical perspectives of of some of the the

...

the places and spaces I want.

...

but but as far as as far as, like,

...

you know, walking around to to build that talk.

...

No.

...

Cool.

...

Well.

...

No. I think I think if some of the conversations you and I had

...

I think after that top,

...

just just in terms of historical context,

...

of of, like, thinking about about the other and thinking about

...

thinking about

...

What

...

you know, about

...

you know, where Poland was was

...

was, you know, where where minds were at with though still

...

you know, feeling

...

some of the fear that comes with with having been occupied as a country for

...

for so long. I think if I've had some of those conversations with you prior,

...

to the talk. I think that likely they would have changed the top because it would have changed some of my

...

Okay.

...

festivals on on on the purposes of me giving that talk

...

Does that make sense?

...

Okay. Well, what about what about that relationship?

...

between

...

the movement and the things that you're

...

experiencing while you're moving.

...

I think it depends on on how you're moving.

...

I

...

I

...

I don't like being in cars. I don't like driving

...

And so

...

I find with quite nervous in that situation.

...

what I'm

...

Did do you like big being driven?

...

If

...

I was I suppose better than since said the ten driving

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But I don't like being in cars. It's

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it's too fraud situation for me.

...

I'm I just find myself being very nervous.

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as bloody dangerous business driving in a car.

...

But if you talking about being on a train,

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or being on airplane.

...

yeah. I I I I get great.

...

pleasure and also

...

it provoke me in a lot of really interesting and and and great ways, I especially about

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to red on trains.

...

and

...

I think some of the the most

...

interesting trips that I've had in terms of stimulating

...

the kind of places that I wanted to be

...

in my thinking, and then my creative process happened on trains.

...

so that it's, of course, a well documented fact that

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putting your mind in neutral sort of thing.

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then looking at

...

four instance,

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The moving landscape

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outside of a

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trying window. All that helps to

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stimulate and

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gets the creative juices flowing.

...

Do you sit on a train with a notebook?

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so

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I I'm not a great note taker.

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But mainly, because I'm

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if I in a situation such as being on a train or walking,

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either of those they're quite similar, but

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somehow being on a train is is more especially i'm in the foreign

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in a foreign place I've ever been

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my

...

my mind starts running like,

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I don't know.

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six hundred times faster than normal.

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And in fact, I actually lose

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I will find myself, so lost on my thoughts that I don't even see

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the landscape passing.

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and then I realized that I've actually kind of almost gone into a

...

i'm sort of.

...

state. I don't know else statistics.

...

So whereas where where

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the takeaway. I mean, is the takeaway merely

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the sort of emotional

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plunge into into a new state of thought or do

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carry away with you

...

concrete ideas and concepts for

...

I don't know for the next

...

play. Say

...

I think if... I think it it

...

it's it's hard to to pin it exactly. But I would say that that I... That

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the

...

it it it provides me something very fruitful and in this way, that's

...

that

...

when you're on a on a train ride and you're just staring out the window,

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you're released from from so many different things you're released from time.

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in a sense because you're gonna be there as long as the

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train is gonna ride. There there's nothing you can do about it. You can't make it longer or shorter.

...

oh,

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and you have no control over.

...

as if you as you might have the illusion that you do if you're driving a car, for example,

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use your

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a happy prisoner in this moving living vehicle. And

...

The other thing that happens is that you you get

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it's fundamentally

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in the state of total change.

...

So you're looking out the window and you're looking into foreign landscapes. You're like, in place you've never

...

seen before.

...

like I'm thinking about a trip I took once

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of a whim I decided to take

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a train from

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Bell grade

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to book rest.

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and really wild drip through the balkans.

...

and

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And as the train was going,

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passing things are this exchange

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so a landscape and in

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in Serbia. And then down into this just wild countryside,

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it was, like, almost every millimeter there was... There were

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row camps right on the tracks.

...

So like, literally, the train was, like, kind Of writing through these little

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sha pounds.

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and somewhere along the way, I I

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I I kinda had a revelation about a project that I was getting ready to go make

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actually going to romania to make a piece there.

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and

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I understood something that I never understood before.

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and it was directly in response to the the landscape that we were in

...

and then both

...

strange thing just before we got to the

...

border of one of... I don't know if it was remaining at that point or

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when we were crossing a border

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remember which one

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and some through a bottle at the train,

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and it broke a window in my carriage.

...

and

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train was stopped. We

...

we were we had to leave. We were forced to leave that that

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carriage and move to a different one.

...

and

...

and I didn't realize it, but I I had left behind a hat

...

that I had been wearing for my travels for a long time.

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And I i lost it. I I I didn't

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the trip we had to change trains shortly after and I just realized I had lost my hat.

...

and

...

And I that was also somehow made a big impact on me.

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about somehow it's making a new chapter when you leave something like

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behind the you've a lot of traveling.

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highly highly symbolic

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Canada, of course, is

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has this has the scale?

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and the expands to lose yourself in

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What's

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What's the longest trouble that you've

...

done purpose purposely to actually

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to travel not to get somewhere but to travel

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Have you done one of those things, Erica?

...

Yeah. I mean, you know, there was there is

...

a bit of, you know, that I I actually had to be at the other

...

place, but I purposely chose on a number of occasions

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to drive across from

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from Vancouver to

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Ontario, and then, of course, back again.

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And usually, I've done that when

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when I've needed to

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to process things in my head.

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to have time to to think to

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And and as Paul says, I mean, those are almost being kind of

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transitional and transformational trip

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I am doing one. Well, let's

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get mean, there is an element of, yes, I am getting to the other side, but

...

it

...

it it is much cheaper and faster to fly, but

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I'm I'm hope.

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Remarkable. That's raised italy.

...

I'm hopefully hopefully planning on

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gonna do the entire country, the spring, and that'll be if I do do it, it'll be the first

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time that, you know, I kind of have planned to do that where it hasn't

...

specifically being because

...

there's is been sort of something in my life that I felt the need

...

two

...

have this sort of the time and the space

...

to

...

be on my own and to to process something

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something large in my life, which is which is

...

every every other time that I've done that and, you know, because that's

...

you know, for... I mean, there I know there are people that can do that trip at about

...

Well if you keep to the Canadian border side, it takes longer than if you were to go to the

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you know, into the Us, but sticking to the Canadian border,

...

there's people that, you know, done that in note.

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for five days so far for me,

...

always being kind of

...

upwards of seven, to fifteen days.

...

I don't see. I don't... Unless you are in a hurry to get somewhere in which case, I guess

...

you know, you should take another home transportation, but I really never

...

I've never seen the attraction of getting somewhere

...

quickly, You know?

...

No. No neither vibe, especially on that kind of trip. I mean,

...

you know, part of what has allowed for me to hub those sort of trip

...

journeys is is taking the time

...

you know, getting out and, especially when you're talking, like, driving and across

...

canada where you're going through some incredibly different

...

strain all, like, you know, as you go across and and a lot of will do this,

...

and

...

I... I mean, so, ultimately, you know, yeah, You wanna

...

you wanna get out, you wanna explore. You want to

...

or you want to stop

...

Yeah. You wanna

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talk and have adventures and

...

and and take a look around. Do you do you do you travel solo?

...

I well, it's I

...

One of the trips has been totally solo. The other one took

...

all involved either Ca, who was my my old

...

or or miss Ella who's one that just landed that

...

climbs herself onto my lap. See she

...

Ask she as she does.

...

Well, she knows, you know, she she likes to be a part of a part of the creative

...

arm too. So

...

Well, you know, it's it's it's it's a thing with cats.

...

Paul tell me the you travel sal.

...

Because I mean, does one need to travel sal.

...

if we if we taken in

...

but I can care wax on the road, he's traveling with a buddy in

...

in the motorcycle Travels with the buddy.

...

Peter Madison goes in in search of the snow leopard with a buddy

...

they never find one incident incidentally, which is, i guess, a neat example of the

...

the search being more important, than then than it's go. But do you

...

find that traveling solo is more productive or is it just different or

...

How does that work?

...

I have to say I've I've traveled with friends.

...

And and I've I've traveled alone

...

but I I much prefer to travel alone

...

and

...

when

...

when you're alone, you

...

your kind of un

...

burden by responsibilities.

...

even if the responsibility is with a good friend of just to say

...

Mhmm.

...

say things and be engaged and have conversations.

...

whereas when you're alone, at least for me,

...

it seems that all possibilities are open.

...

anything

...

could happen.

...

I can make whatever choice I want.

...

in terms of how long I stay or how long I I

...

ming on a place or who I might

...

decided to go try to talk to

...

And so I I I like this state very much because I

...

for me, the the

...

Most exciting thing about travel is the

...

the possibility of it and and the uncertainty of it.

...

At least, that's the kind of traveling that that I'd like to do.

...

So that's

...

Yeah. You're done going much for the the inclusive stay.

...

five star establishment. I'm sure.

...

all of this, of course, is is highly subjective.

...

and some great artists

...

never traveled much beyond.

...

beyond the region of the country well, while others would

...

would not have

...

really carved their names into the

...

the canon of literature or painting or what have you?

...

if the had stayed put

...

Okay. Canada is perhaps Australia. Also,

...

you know, the states, these are special cases. Right? Where you don't actually

...

have to

...

leave your own country to to to enter another world, but

...

from your own subjective perspectives, which is more

...

effective as a

...

as a capitalist, I guess, when your ideas for

...

for thoughts for for insights.

...

foreign

...

of domestic or even just local

...

How does that work?

...

I don't know for me that there's

...

a

...

I like, I I I never seemed to find to shortage.

...

so

...

So so so I don't know that I'm sort of

...

So is is it is it more about processing of ideas?

...

or is it is it not even that?

...

It's more about processing. It's more about processing of ideas.

...

Okay.

...

and mind you... You know, I

...

I mean, for, you know,

...

whenever I am traveling and whatever wherever i'm... I am going through

...

through, you know, different adventures and and and different journeys.

...

I mean, it off always does spark new ideas of me as well.

...

But but it does. I often traveled to process ideas.

...

you know, the trip I was doing in France when I was supposed some

...

kids stories, no opt emmy instead. Mean being

...

being a story about character that I write

...

you know, sort of being in that different place,

...

and kind of exploring and

...

I I I tend to do a lot of walking when I'm when I'm

...

traveling as well. So I mean, I guess all of that does lead to your

...

mm-mm

...

your sort of query movement bits earlier rape.

...

It's

...

Yeah. I I I I I purposely sometimes

...

pick adventures and journeys and travels

...

two process ideas and and sometimes to,

...

to create ideas. There is one particular trip I did

...

down to to Memphis because I I

...

pitch an idea to

...

to a particular company and for whatever reason,

...

Was the mississippi delta shining like a national Guitar?

...

I've always loved that line.

...

I don't know that it was shy but look guitar

...

but it was it was it was... You know, it was

...

it's definitely was the trip that that

...

quite memorable in my mind, and it and it did it back to what I needed it to do aside from

...

also, having many many years experience of meeting many many new characters on that trip.

...

It also sparked the rating and starts aren't flowing of ideas.

...

which which is is is what I needed on that particular

...

killer journey.

...

there

...

there are ways I can do that, you know, when I'm at

...

home as well.

...

that's

...

I mean, certainly, there is, I think

...

And I never really thought about this way, but perhaps it is the movement

...

of the charity that

...

that that allows those ideas to

...

to flow faster to flow

...

you know, sort of in a a more coherent way when you when you stop

...

process that my... I'm

...

I'm also thinking as, as I say that

...

when I went to Norway to interview for that

...

immersive of an interactive fellowship, you know, sort of

...

boarding the plane on the way home. I I spent that in

...

flight home sort of

...

rewriting a particular

...

A story idea I've have had for years that that

...

the

...

the fellowship, you know, kind of

...

you know, what because as I was sitting there, you know,

...

in doing the interview, it occurred apps

...

they'd asked me to come and

...

the story that

...

they asked you to come and interview four wasn't the story that they wanted. So

...

wasn't the right story.

...

yeah. So... So... And I remember, in a and phone... It flows

...

it's it's it's remarkable how that

...

very quickly and very on on that that that play dirty home.

...

Mhmm.

...

remarkable how that happens. You know how these same things good.

...

it launched and then this launched years later for

...

foreign or domestic far away or close to home.

...

Oh, or oh, does it not matter?

...

Oh, doesn't it depend? How does that work for you?

...

Well,

...

I would have to say far away.

...

and foreign

...

the more for and the better, I think.

...

Is it the act of discovery?

...

Yeah. I I was

...

before we we started today, I I found this great quote about travel

...

from from Richard Burton of all people.

...

Well,

...

he said the the glad moment in human life me thinks

...

is a departure into unknown lands.

...

Richard should burton the traveler

...

yes.

...

not written not not richard but the actor.

...

It's service richard burton.

...

mhmm

...

And

...

Yeah. I think that for me, that's that's

...

It's

...

Well, of course, I'm maybe a unique situation because I I left

...

my own country, and I've we've had been living

...

living outside of it for more than ten years now. And so

...

even when I travel,

...

in my new country, it's still

...

I'm so traveling in the foreign country. In fact, if I stay local,

...

But but I do

...

I do always long for play

...

that I've never seen in places I couldn't have imagined.

...

And and also, of course, the people, I think that

...

at the end of the day,

...

it's the people much more for me than the places.

...

of course, you can't separate them I suppose, but

...

but the people that you meet the encounters that you have the

...

conversations that you

...

engaging in as

...

as strangers. In fact, because when you enter into

...

into this kind of travel, you

...

everyone is a stranger.

...

if you're in your own country somehow,

...

it's a different kind of stranger because you you know each other you

...

speak the same language. You there's things.

...

there is assumption that you're not a stranger, whereas

...

fact you are right?

...

Yes.

...

but in the in a really foreign situation that is clearly

...

you are you are a stranger

...

and it's not a given that

...

you can communicate

...

at all.

...

or understand any of the rules or the

...

customs or the ways that people behave

...

it's all of mystery. In fact, it you're in

...

you're you're in a really unbalanced and interesting place.

...

And I think that's what I like.

...

And

...

about that kind of travel, and I I find that

...

that throughout my life has been moments where? Just felt stuck.

...

creatively. I didn't know what to do.

...

I just... Or I was burned out or I was somehow dried out

...

and

...

travel was always the the the fix for that.

...

to just

...

without planning to almost anything, just

...

throwing your things in a bag and and going and getting lost.

...

essentially, somehow, in in engaging in that kind of journey,

...

I i I still come back to that. I I think it is one of the

...

the glad moments when you you you you board that plane or that train.

...

to

...

somehow a very loosely sketched destination

...

This is really some of the most exciting and memorable things and and they stayed with

...

me and I I keep returning to them.

...

the images from those strips come back to me and the feeling

...

that for me, there's always this kind of thrill that

...

I've I've gone to some places where I was so far out into the

...

into the weeds that

...

no one on this because i guess where I was.

...

and no one could ever find me.

...

that I know

...

and i

...

the glorious feeling of of being entirely

...

and and

...

and totally unknown and and

...

That's that there's a there's a freedom attached to that isn't it?

...

It's a profound feed freedom and and

...

course it's also kind of terrifying

...

But but there's also like, a really sublime pleasure in it.

...

it is it is about being totally free and

...

no one knows who you are, and no one can judge you

...

no one can guess who anything about you

...

but also, you're also in a similar position with others

...

you just don't know what's going on.

...

and then

...

you... It's so you're open, you're you you're stretching all your senses to try to

...

fun.

...

to understand where you are, and and it's

...

Yeah. I'm just thinking of some trips like, I remember once I

...

I had to had a deal with my my

...

situation when I was living in paula was often fraud.

...

gives you that sort of sort of

...

when you're first here, like, how to get

...

how to extend your visa.

...

and the the the cheap simple way was just to

...

jump over the border.

...

And so I often was taking very crazy bus rides

...

to Ukraine.

...

and

...

It was like some very, very wild strange

...

trips in the in the night across the border to evolve for

...

sometimes much longer trips to Kiev.

...

and

...

I was told once in

...

friendly, but

...

no one uncertain terms that in fact,

...

My little

...

walk across the the border to

...

To purchase some of the local richer

...

was available one this side of the border.

...

on day eighty nine of my

...

initial ninety.

...

really would be frowned upon by anybody other than

...

the chap who was sitting

...

in that little office raising his butt. It was the middle

...

middle of winter. And I already really

...

don't know how I ended up there with, you know,

...

on a bus go and then walking across the border, but, you know, this

...

these these experiences are

...

why we travel, I guess,

...

But there is the idea of

...

the

...

The no, know who doesn't just travel, but who actually

...

stays

...

stays

...

perpetually perpetually in motion. And I don't wonder

...

whether that's

...

that idea actually has

...

Oh what validity that idea has

...

these days. And or if it ever did other than it being, you know, entirely,

...

attractive. Though, of course, if you think of, you know, I don't know Bruce Chat, for instance,

...

he would go off for a very, very long trip

...

But then

...

you know, I think think to

...

two two, the days of Alexis is the taco.

...

who

...

spent all of nine months, I think, in the Us

...

and then produce a massive work

...

And the counter that was defining

...

in its day, and he never went back to the states.

...

how long do you have to be away?

...

in order

...

really

...

get the grips with with, you know,

...

a set of ideas that you can then present

...

something that is

...

large and substantial or... Or, does it not really matter?

...

and being away for a short time.

...

can be

...

can be just as effective.

...

What do you think?

...

I think it depends on what you're writing. So i

...

I mean, I

...

certainly through my my sort of travel journalism work,

...

I I know many many people who have

...

preach the whole digital no mad lifestyle and

...

have set out on those journeys where they they've intended to be in prep

...

motion and

...

I I'm somewhat skeptical of of of of

...

of that that preaching having seen all of them

...

settle somewhere. It might be been, like, you know, in the

...

place that they came from originally or it might have been somewhere new, but but all of them have

...

research research would actually bear out that opinion

...

up entirely because... Oh, although, you know, we are

...

Yeah.

...

instill in early days of digital.

...

But, you know... And we'll see how that develops. But

...

but people

...

stay away quote unquote for some months up to a year, maybe eighteen months.

...

and then they go home.

...

Yeah. Where they settle in in a new place.

...

All, they... Are all they exactly or they move somewhere permanent. Yeah.

...

Yeah. It's

...

because I mean, I think we all do

...

you know have that needs

...

to

...

be able to curl up somewhere to

...

and and, you know, and be able to

...

to stop and be still at some points as well. I I I think that's that's

...

you know,

...

just as important as as as the the moving

...

So I I think

...

I think it really

...

depends on what it is that you're writing and

...

what and and what the

...

experiences when you're having when you're there, like, so

...

for example... I'm sure that we've all been to places that

...

it felt a lot longer

...

of a trip that than it really was because the

...

the experiences that you're having were so totally alien

...

to your your your your life experiences before that that

...

you know, a short period of time, like, two weeks could seem like it was, you know,

...

months and and all the different sort of new things that that you learned during

...

that time frame.

...

But

...

I mean, it it also just... It depends on on what it is that you're writing. If you're

...

if you're trying to write a narrative that's that's really rich

...

in a particular culture. I believe that you probably need

...

Wow, That wouldn't make sense.

...

spend more time in that that space and then two weeks.

...

Or if you're, you know, just sort because we were speaking about the whole did

...

know that if you're if you trying to come across as an expert in that place,

...

you know, I I would... I've Harvard, you know, I guess,

...

that that you need spend more this two weeks there to become that expert as well.

...

Oh you would know it from people's writing quite often.

...

Yes. Well.

...

It's as as I as I keep keep saying about another

...

plan together. Public speaking is not just speaking in public.

...

john Cage come with

...

met a number of times on the creative farm, said that he

...

felt and urge to move

...

move on

...

Really, as soon as he thought his work was understood,

...

where he had been

...

living, but this is not the same as traveling though. Is it it's

...

this is like a different different... A

...

activity altogether moving on to live somewhere else.

...

the... What's the defining?

...

quality that's

...

you would you would

...

if you can put your finger on

...

in terms of the difference between moving on from somewhere,

...

to live somewhere else.

...

and the idea of

...

getting on a

...

play or a train or something.

...

for reasons of inspirational research what have you?

...

Well,

...

you travel or or moving on

...

What

...

We're all about. We're all about subtle differences on the creative form.

...

Yeah.

...

Yeah. That's like

...

love affair and the marriage and then

...

two different things entirely.

...

when you're traveling,

...

there's a sense of

...

It's limited.

...

you might have all kinds of wild adventures, but at the end, do,

...

you'll come back to where you started.

...

And if it was good,

...

you'll be changed somehow.

...

but

...

you return to the life that you

...

that you had

...

whereas when you move on,

...

It's

...

It's much more difficult to go back.

...

and

...

And I think that moving on means that you don't want to go back.

...

or at least

...

not ever to live again.

...

and that's that's a a much more profound decision.

...

And of course, is one that that that that I decided to do and

...

not only once.

...

but several times in my life.

...

and

...

I think that that when you travel, you you you get a

...

sense of that.

...

but it's safe because you, you know, that

...

Okay. And a week come back.

...

and

...

whereas when you move on,

...

you're you're you're cutting a lot of ties

...

with people you're coming ties to your past,

...

you're cutting ties sometimes to your own country or your own culture.

...

So, yeah, Those are very, very different animals.

...

And but I also think that there's

...

there's another side to this, which is that

...

it

...

it is often the case. And, of course I'm speaking subjective, this is

...

in my situation, but it's also been the situation of of many friends of mine.

...

that's

...

What

...

what happens is if sometimes

...

for great praise of been life as all your life. You you felt like a stranger in your own country.

...

And so

...

to

...

to leave your own country and to go to another country

...

was to

...

enter into a kind of a different kind of strange that felt

...

like home.

...

But there's there's a degree of comfort about that.

...

Yeah.

...

which I cannot attest to because you're

...

there isn't actually anything different about

...

you're you experiencing the different things. You are still

...

feeling a certain

...

detachment.

...

and it's... And it's comfortable.

...

Yeah. Somehow, it

...

when you... When you're outside of it,

...

it I I find it's more comfortable

...

because because to be inside,

...

place that you're somehow alienated from

...

alien being from a

...

your own culture is a is there

...

painful and difficult position to be in.

...

and

...

you feel like a stranger

...

and your own in a familiar place,

...

when you get

...

to be a stranger in a strange place. Yeah. Then you feel great.

...

says to my case. I

...

you you end up feeling like you're actually fit

...

Exactly.

...

What do we find in the end?

...

Why do we travel?

...

I for me, I mean, it's

...

just... I I'm fortunate and that it's just always being a part of my life.

...

I I want to... I wanna, like,

...

i I traveled to Learn. I traveled to expose myself to something

...

different. Something new.

...

I I think those are the main reasons

...

by myself travel. Although

...

there there certainly have been some

...

some

...

you know, after after my car accident

...

I I realized I also needed to travel to to

...

to be well. I needed to travel to

...

remind myself that

...

that I I was I was still

...

still able to have those kind of

...

So you define

...

and adventures that there was still a lot of living to do

...

define being being being well as as being able to have

...

No.

...

adventures. I love that.

...

i. In in many ways. Yeah. Yeah. It it it

...

it's

...

it's interesting. I

...

And and it's... You know, it's it's

...

it's it's also where I I was very fortunate that

...

I... You know, we'd already started Romantic saying

...

for before that happened to me. So so I could

...

I could could have some adventures

...

in in a way that

...

that that

...

that was that was affordable to me when I was going through a

...

period where

...

I

...

I

...

did not have a tremendous amount of money because we lost

...

a lot of our work when I got injured.

...

But

...

Yeah. It's

...

even though

...

you know, those early stages of travel for me,

...

after the accident, I didn't have

...

including the trip in which you and I first physically met,

...

I... I'm not sure I didn't realize how sick I was. So

...

you know, I didn't have a good handle on on my, you know, on managing

...

you know, my pain or or anything else. However,

...

those trips were what

...

what made me realize that

...

I that I had a lot more living to do

...

and that I needed to figure out how to manage

...

the pain so that I could move forward. And and I mean,

...

those adventures also

...

I mean, well... There's there's

...

there's a lot... I think that that we'll get processed to different stories there.

...

at some point as well. And it's

...

it's interesting. I mean, I even look at, like, you know, we're talking about things like naturally ours,

...

are are a nature series. I mean, those are trips

...

where the storytelling actually happens

...

while we're traveling while we're in a new place.

...

and and you're kind of

...

sort of

...

in this intense period of of

...

of of meeting new people of processing that newness,

...

of processing the learning that comes from all of that.

...

while cameras throwing. You know, you're sleep deprived and all the rest of it.

...

And and it's amazing because there's there's a certain rich

...

that that's that comes out of those stories from

...

from just being present and and

...

being in that that space of vulnerability.

...

we what do we find Paul in the end? Why do we... Why do we travel?

...

Whether we travel

...

because I think we love it.

...

That's that's too simple.

...

maybe

...

but when I think about what I've been thinking about all this

...

we travel because we're

...

it's a way to transform ourselves.

...

and our experience of life

...

nothing else can do.

...

And

...

maybe that's a definition of love.

...

that's

...

that kind of transformation is possible. Love cancer

...

and my understanding is a is a transformative

...

experience

...

and I think travel trouble gives us that

...

it it

...

it it changes us.

...

and, you know,

...

I think if you don't travel

...

yeah. If you

...

you

...

you sit in that

...

in your

...

your place and you never leave and you

...

I think that

...

it's this

...

this

...

Course, I'm speaking generally, but I think that this this

...

limits you tremendously.

...

I think

...

In this this pandemic, we've ventured

...

out.

...

virtually into places near and far.

...

because I know I have

...

but that's not enough is that it kind of needs to be physical. Doesn't it

...

it does.

...

it does need to be physical I I think that

...

it

...

the

...

the digital the world is the the the

...

the great short coming of it is is that it

...

it

...

or needs your body

...

in need to be able to

...

snow, you need to be able to

...

to to touch, you need to be able to be in proximity

...

And these are the things that travel does that that's digital

...

things cannot. of course, digital can do wonderful things. You can have conversations with

...

over over the world and and have quite meaningful exchanges.

...

But

...

there's one thing to have an amazing conversation

...

with someone you've met

...

online.

...

as opposed to having that conversation with

...

a cup of espresso

...

because

...

if you're having together.

...

and the tech

...

in their city.

...

in their city as they are telling you about

...

the buildings and what you

...

exactly.

...

Yeah.

...

Yeah. It's interesting. I just... I was thinking back

...

to

...

sort of my my sort of exploration research trip in

...

Normandy and d around world were two with that.

...

and

...

I noticed that even in the space of

...

of traveling to different parts of Normandy and d.

...

you know, all of a sudden being hit with these

...

different layers of how

...

how how how world were to

...

you know, impacted the survivors

...

in in in Normandy and d,

...

and

...

and in so many different

...

in such a different layered way that... I don't think I would a

...

properly understood

...

from talking with somebody from afar because some of that, you know, is about

...

body language, Some of it's about, you know,

...

when when we were in Real, like, seeing things like

...

you know, the actual bullet holes that were

...

in in the walls of buildings and and understanding

...

you know,

...

like, you sort of

...

getting getting the impact of just what happened in that city.

...

and and and seeing the pain that sort of still

...

and the presidency that still

...

you know, exists in people's eyes and their mannerisms and in their reactions.

...

like,

...

you know what?

...

all these years later,

...

they

...

I mean, yeah. You you just

...

you wouldn't

...

you wouldn't get that, like,

...

know,

...

even, you know, why you're on a video conference call mean you might get some of it, but not

...

Oh, it's also also a question of of time

...

Oh, absolutely. Because you you're also

...

or or immersion in time right? I'm in here

...

if if you get just

...

if you if you sit quietly with someone for twenty minutes, you can do that.

...

Yeah.

...

when you're sitting next to them drinking coffee, would be really unbearable on a zoom call

...

Yeah. Well, that's it's like, you know, it's

...

it's they're they're getting your added layers of of vulnerability too. Right?

...

That word keeps coming coming

...

I... Well, certainly for me, but I think I heard heard of of it from

...

from from what Paul shared to. I mean,

...

you know, there's

...

there is that difference swearing

...

you're in that place in allowing yourself to be

...

vulnerable in the experience that

...

I think just... It it does it creates. It creates

...

deeper deeper layers of of understanding. And and perhaps, you know, that

...

part of why, you know, travels

...

partially being so important to me in my own my own healing in my own

...

the february journey too is is

...

is allowing myself

...

to be vulnerable and which, which ultimately helps

...

in in the processing.

...

Tom Weights whom we continue to quote this program.

...

says in his altogether fabulous song of foreign affair,

...

the obsessions in the searching and not the upper hand

...

I wonder if

...

maybe to

...

trying answer that that that question of

...

of you know, why do we travel?

...

is the

...

the whole point

...

of the pursuit

...

to pursue

...

and not to hand.

...

Does the journey

...

ever end. What do you think Paul?

...

Now. The the the the the the journey doesn't end.

...

Mean ends and death

...

that's the only place of the end

...

Yes.

...

That's the that's the point out.

...

and

...

But

...

I I I still... I still come come around to to to transformation.

...

there's another quote that

...

I

...

I was looking at and and I think quite half this that

...

I'm not the same.

...

having seen the moon on the other side of the world.

...

And I think that that's

...

that's also part of this is that that

...

the

...

something

...

there is something transformative in his

...

in travel that's truly transformative that you come back to you're not same person.

...

And

...

And evidently, replica have

...

those same experiences watching attack ships under the

...

far side of the of of Orion was it?

...

Thank you.

...

And so we've come coming to the end of another

...

create a farm chat.

...

my thanks to

...

to Hard all the way from

...

British Columbia.

...

bracing you herself for for the impending arrival of winter.

...

and paul

...

from

...

seasonally,

...

warm and and

...

and sunny Also, but also embracing himself

...

of the impending arrival of

...

something wet and and white falling from this guy. My thanks

...

birth again, Thank you to our audience.

...

and we'll we'll catch you again.

...

same time next week.

...

on the greater farm. Have a good night.

...

Thank you, Race.

...

Thanks, Ralph.

Fortune Cookie