The Future of Entertainment is Interactive

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...

Well, there there you go. We start with with that.

...

joyful pronounce good the evening.

...

art and commerce people

...

They say, never the twain show meet

...

Well, they lied

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art and congress do meet.

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and have been meeting since time time in memorial, or, certainly,

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at least as long as they have been

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artists

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making a

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and living as

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Well, as artists,

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country to lovely, but entirely erroneous belief artist

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do need to eat.

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and are not sustained merely by the ingestion of

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narration.

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and q is not

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a currency that's recognized by any bank that that perhaps

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it should be a crypto

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aimed at powering the creative economy. I don't know. We can talk about that too.

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So so here, two entangled parts of that complex

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relationship of the art and and the

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I'm glad to welcome

...

again, to the creative farm to regular

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Erica r writer, From the beautiful

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and

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troubled because of british columbia.

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and adrian in Cooker,

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composer and musician

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from the beautiful and troubled

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London town. Will both

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to the creative farm again.

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Thank you, Race. I'm excited to be here again.

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It's such a such pleasure to have you about.

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tell me why hasn't it been so hard to reconcile doing art and getting

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paid

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good question. I'm

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I think songs that comes down to the fact that

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because it's a passion because

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it it's something that you do because

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because you need to do it because

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you

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you can't imagine doing anything else.

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and because others don't see it as a

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typical

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job.

...

they

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they think it should

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just be something that you

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you do for for the lot of it and for the enjoyment of it and

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build place

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terrific. If that... If that really well the case, then there wouldn't be any artist left.

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they all would have stopped at Death

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No. Kidding. Well,

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I... Well, I mean, I think I think there is that thing about the

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struggling artists, where where you you you do struggle if you do find five ways

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to to to make ends meet. But I... I mean, I think I think that's where that's

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this whole notion come... It's not notion I agree with, but

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I think that's where this whole notion sort of comes from that

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that you know,

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somehow, seems used to forget that we

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we need to

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to pay our our artists

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and and allow them to make make a living just like

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everybody else. I I

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just, you know, years ago, when I was I was researching

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the possibility of doing a fellowship in Norway.

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that was one of the things that discovered about their culture that I quite light.

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they actually had a a basic

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living rate

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for artists in Norway. And so so artists

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were all granted a a basic

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living rate for to allow them to

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to focus on on creating

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So this was like a st end that was paid by what by that

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their local social security.

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Yeah. It this is kind of a, like, you know, a government

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some

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sort of, I guess, policy or

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scholarship for coming coming from from from the government.

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Yep.

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that sounds like an eminent sensible thing to me.

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Adrian, what what what do you think tossing tossing between

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and doing art and getting page seems to be a

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a constant

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Well,

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Let's just call it dilemma. That's not use any stronger language.

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Where does that come from?

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Well,

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I mean, I guess if I was to, you know, speculate,

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art in Western cultures. I mean,

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traditionally, I guess there was two forms of our

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there was the art the fa they are made

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by the people for the people for every day for for ritual for

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of the community. And then there was the art that was

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made for the Language Jam, the the king,

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the queen, whoever was the the rich

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and the

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the powerful in in those cultures.

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And I guess,

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they were always kept quite separate. I mean, obviously, you

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the whole idea of getting commissioned

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and we still have this phrase comes from the latter where

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you know, the great and the good would commission you to

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Right music, paint the Fresco, painter to

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a portrait, whatever it would be.

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and

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So, you know, that was always a game pretty much like it is now of

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for having to

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you know, appeal to the people who have the money

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the faux, I guess, is interesting because

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you know, basically, music cannot was was was there. You didn't need

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buy it, You know, it was I it was just part of your everyday culture.

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and

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and the capitalism and Of people

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in this country are many other countries, but, you know,

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we obviously, you know, Bring got kicked off the land quite early on

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commons. It was basically how the rich became the rich, you know, huge sway of I were

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taken into private ownership and, you know,

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people then had to

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that time

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the time that they would have had free, I guess, when they were

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live in in the on these kind of common lands in the comments.

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when has got cities,

...

work. What was that in the beginning of the Industrial revolution?

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that time slowly became eroded away and

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Oh, and time is kind of like I said before and of things that you really need, if you're gonna be creative,

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And then capitalism didn't cover the great thing as you could sell it back to people. You could

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the people that could make the are and get

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through all the kind of tribulation and and, you know,

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and machinery problems have been musician

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know, the the best of those you could set it back to people

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So

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I guess,

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you know,

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it's always been and know interesting think about same music, which is why I'm predominantly involved in

...

is the contract that certainly major labels

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still operate.

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is based on the master servant

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relationship. So, you know, for example everyone knows about

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prints and, you know, George Michael these big artists

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too something was got more powerful.

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to

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the terms of these contracts, which basically would say,

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until we let you go, you are basically behold to us, and you can't

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record for anyone else. It's pretty much identical to

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you know, the master servant relationship

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even though it's, you know, obviously not on the same scale and can really equate

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been a musicians to be studied.

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Well, been a real slave.

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So, you know, the the... There's big this historical roots back

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to

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I think, you know, because, you know,

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as Service said, there's always a passion that musicians having sometimes

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in the, you know, forty years ago, just getting into recording studio to been such an amazing

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thing from musician that they've

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not really bothered about what was gonna happen in five, ten, fifteen years.

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time to the music that they were right and just actually making the music.

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And I know I've had these situations by just doing it.

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because that's why you do it. You do it. And so

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that's the pleasure of it. You know, the the things that come off it later,

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Oh,

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second, but obviously, like, he said you need to eat

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And as you get older, and you realize how much of your

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intellectual property to use the capitalist term

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you do you give away or is you starting off you?

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come in here, dear boy have a cigar sort of thing. Right?

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You know I mean, I think I've said you before, you know, when you sign a contract

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right now for

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working on a film with Tv production, sixty,

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these large boxer Netflix, apple, Amazon,

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you know, they they they take your publishing off you nothing, and this is totally to be

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elite. Well, it's not illegal because they get away with it.

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and it's a contractual thing so they can

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how you on have a basis they've been, you know, their terms, but

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You know, this is

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this is how

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musicians stay poor.

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I think, you know, more and more that people looking

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at the specific specific details of

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where the money goes, and you never knows about spotify.

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me spotify who hadn't taken

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or, you know, not paid musicians properly for x of years.

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had choose amounts of investment. We all these low interest rate.

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money that's been knocking around since two thousand and eight.

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have set up a startup to invest in three d battlefield modeling.

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And the fact that, you know, people that aren't not in arms, literally about that

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that i

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an arts music based platform that has taken a an off position on

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hire people in music and

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the guys basically makes him, you know, working in with the arms industry.

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we've gone a long way from the sixties piece is pretty sad.

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So well platforms, of course,

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thriving though, as you said,

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to compare their business models would be to compare talk and chase.

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at

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takes five percent of the final sale

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spotify pace somewhere in the page somewhere in the order of that.

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and so on.

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So

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How far are we off?

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artists creating their own platforms.

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Working that's coming. I mean, you know, this

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so many, you know, because of blockchain because of

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you know, with the web three twenty zero, that is

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being taught of, and I think it's still being formulated. I still have able to see

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something in music terms that

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is kind of like a

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a kind of up and function thing that

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has got a lot of people use and

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suddenly takes off

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But I think

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it's gonna take time because, you know, the Internet has been so

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kind of caught and often pri.

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the... I think anything that threatens the stakes

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quo kind of get side. So people have to really

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want to find things and they have to be curious and they have to kind of

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you know, keep a mass information.

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So, you know, it's like everyone must feel the same. You know? I'm sure this

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amazing things going on at the moment, but I just haven't

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keep seeing those snippets and things that I think

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a look in promising, but I think... But, you know... I mean, I think in the music in institute at the moment you

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got two worlds, and then you've got this

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new burden world. We've got the world that we're talking about the world of how you makes living as an artist.

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And then you've got the world which is growing, which is quite an interesting one where.

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you know,

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music copyright.

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I've been traded exactly like a government bond.

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or stocks and shares as as as

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you know, invertible instruments. And this is a massive thing, you know, financial

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times always always writing that music and how wonderful music is

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And it's about like, our economy, you know the people working

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and that is the people who are speculating

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with the workers. And I think a lot of this stuff is

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exactly parallel music isn't that dissimilar really to

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a lot of what's going on in everyone's lives in my the field they work in.

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Just think music is something that

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you know, you get to see it

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music has always been very bad when it comes to these things. And I think live digital technology is just

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been accelerated.

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But yeah. Opportunities and options for

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doing things differently.

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Ralph, maybe you come across and stuff or Erica that you'd recommend.

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Well, we're going to know that here here from Erica in a second because

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has been dipping her

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elegant toes in the in the

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no.

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Icy cold waters of of of web three point o,

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I I clearly haven't shared my toes with

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Well, you know, this is radio

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you the ben because... I think they're bit fred plates don't like,

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This is this is ready three point oh, let's let's... Let's leave it at that.

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But the the interesting thing to consider

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and and and we'll we will we'll get two to web three point in a second but the interesting thing to

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to consider is these they

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wheels within wheels of how things happen.

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And I'm just

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curious how far

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this decent decentralized

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and web three and everything that goes along with it.

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how far that will swing one way

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one way towards the decentralized

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and then it will get re centralized again.

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buy some new of

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of large corporates who have figured out how to play the game. So tell us

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Erica, what have you been experimenting with? And how is it going?

...

Yeah. So, I mean, that's that's very much a

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space that I've been living and breathing this

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last year

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starting a year ago with with the web monetization

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standard, which which for those of be that are listening and you're thinking oh

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that's advertising and affiliate marketing and all that kind of stuff. No.

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No. No. No. The web standard is

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advertising and and and affiliate marketing that's basically platform play

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right.

...

Yeah. And i'm unfortunately

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claim They've given in a name for the this new Api that

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a lot of people equate with

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with sort of that

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advertising and an affiliate

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space. But but what this is is it's it's basically a a a new Api

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that allows you stick a piece of code on your digital work.

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And then the way it works right now is

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is people basically have a membership to

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the current platform to sort of

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provider for web memorization as coil, although they're

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looking to build more providers

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But then whenever

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for the benefit for the benefit of those who are not familiar

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with the the jargon on Api

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application programming interface is essentially a piece of code that allows you to

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make something work with with something else. Right?

...

Yeah. And so the way this

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works since when you put that piece of code onto your website,

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tied to your digital wallet.

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anybody who

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is who who's sort of

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bought to

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web monetization with with the membership.

...

they when they spend time on your content,

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they end up... Like, basically

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streaming you little micro payments.

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for the time they spend on your content. And

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which is which is not the same as

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medium trickling, you know, a few cents here and there

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for people's minutes spent on on my articles, Not quite the

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same thing. Is it

...

No. No. No. There are there are

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can you. Can you just explain the mechanism a little more?

...

So

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So well, first of all, it it doesn't

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just limit you to one platform. It's

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it's across the web where as long as you can get that code onto whatever

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the digital the digital

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entity is that you've created. So, for example,

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all of

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the various different websites that that I've built

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have that piece of code on it. And that piece of code it's quite

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lovely too, because any of my other writers

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but right on the platforms, they can all stick in there.

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digital wallet as wow. And so

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if somebody were to spend time on say an article of lawyers, then

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the the micro payments would be streaming to

...

too, Laurie, in that case, versus if they're spending time on the

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forms main page where it comes into the company or

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you know, if it's on one of my articles and then them those micro

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coming to me. But I can similarly

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I've got my Youtube channels, for example, set up so that

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So that micro payments will stream to me through

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true through people spending time online different Youtube videos.

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There's also some platforms out there that are specifically just

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bind for web monetization. So

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some of the ones I'm thinking of I was on a call this morning with

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snake nation, which is the new new platform that has been released yet.

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coming out of Africa, but something to sort of keep your

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your eyes peeled for when when they do release, there's other platforms like mg

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social or cinnamon video, which we're all set up with

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with web monetization as well as kind of experimenting with other forms of

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of of tipping with with

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And other digital current in mind.

...

So what happens

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as I have

...

a wallet set up with some... Let's say, ripple

...

Mhmm.

...

all something else in it. And I

...

allow this wallet to talk

...

through the Api to these the to this this web three hour environment,

...

And then if I go and read an article by Erica Hard,

...

a little button pops up, and I can I can press it and I and I can send some

...

samsung Bucks, your way.

...

No. You don't actually. You don't actually

...

is it not

...

Mhmm.

...

then you don't actually have to initiate it in any way

...

shape form. You just need to have either be using

...

a... Like, so, for example, your friend

...

and

...

Amber. She she was behind a

...

a puma of browser, which you you'd use on something like

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your your smartphone or on your tablet. If you're

...

if you're utilizing, you know, puma browser or another browser like that that you can

...

ty your your sort of

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web monetization provider

...

membership too, then

...

anywhere where you search while you're using that browser,

...

if that site or if that piece of

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that digital artifact is

...

web monetized, then you automatically

...

send micro payments to the time that you spent there.

...

That makes makes perfect sense.

...

up until you used up your membership for the month. So so you don't get you don't get

...

Yeah. Yeah.

...

charged extra each month, which is, which is good to know

...

And then I

...

for, like, when you're on your sort of regular, you know, laptop,

...

then you just need to have

...

you need to have the

...

plug it plug and installed.

...

browser a a browsers extension installed.

...

Okay. Yeah.

...

and then the the browser extension, it lights up

...

green whenever you're on a web mono site to tell you that you are

...

indeed now, streaming some little micro payments to

...

contributing to the the the the hard earned living of

...

of someone who's actually put those words on that page.

...

what, yeah. We'll we'll... I'm sure we'll we'll be coming back to the the mechanics of this

...

before too long on the creative file because

...

this is the new world, and all those mechanisms

...

Some of those, you know, some of them we we have talked about in nifty and what have you?

...

and other technologies they are

...

all of a sudden making it possible for

...

making it easier. Shall we say for artists,

...

Yeah.

...

to to to access direct revenue. But

...

Yeah. And it was interesting what

...

Adrian was talking about earlier today too about

...

you know, the concern always being that, you know, as these things grow,

...

sometimes you don't have people see them initially, which is certainly what

...

happening with a web monetization standard at the moment is a lot of people

...

so easy to do, but majority of people are not aware of it.

...

And, including, like, you'll speak with people like journalists or

...

bloggers and things like that about it and even though it

...

doesn't take them very long to web monetize their their sights.

...

they're often not doing it because they see it

...

some people see it as, like, a point of contention that

...

Oh, is this gonna somehow take away from my

...

Whereas, whereas it it has the

...

way that I'm earning right now through advertising in

...

you know, it has the... It has that they need the potential of actually freeing them up from

...

Absolutely.

...

Absolutely.

...

from the the clutch of that world.

...

Well, and the point the point I was... I I was coming coming to was

...

that that seems to be a sort of unnatural

...

progression of what to be happening over the last twenty, thirty years.

...

that artists have branched out more and more.

...

into production and into sales.

...

and certainly that process was was very visible in photography.

...

twenty thirty years ago, it is certainly very visible in music.

...

I'm wondering if it's because the artists inherent

...

comes into play and

...

know where we're apparently spending an increasing amount of time on the business of art

...

a decreasing amount of time

...

on the art itself, adrian, if I can if I can come back to you,

...

and just

...

ask your opinion on whether or not

...

setting setting aside our

...

natural deconstruct and tendencies for a moment, whether or not you

...

think

...

the the technology

...

network, the the platforms is the ecosystem that Erica has been talking about

...

has a chance

...

of freeing people up to do more as opposed to

...

tying them down,

...

to doing more, you know,

...

called ring and and sales and what have you?

...

I guess, I mean,

...

it depends on networks

...

as we know, we've cooked the currencies already as

...

houses is the numbers

...

people in the network. So

...

you know? And I think, as I said, there is a vested interest

...

in making the right noise is about

...

wanting to change things from, you know, the powers that be, but, you know, ultimately,

...

they are not wanting to give up market share. So

...

I think that technology is of

...

I should just... I should just interrupt here with web monetization.

...

No. No.

...

you don't have to be involved in cryptocurrency cryptocurrencies. You just have to have a digital wallet.

...

Yeah. Sure.

...

But

...

it's still the idea that, you know, attention is currency.

...

whatever the exchanges is for the the attention of the eyeballs.

...

And that's how, and the internet works, is meant stop really. But I mean,

...

mean, I think the technology is there to give these new

...

that is already creating these new paradigms, and i.

...

amongst

...

some of the younger generations amongst the Genders z I think, you know, I... This thing's going on to

...

I'm trying to get them head around because they're just different paradigms in terms of how

...

you know, mathematics, how

...

in the old days for me, I would just, you know, say to friendly the other day, we would

...

about music without this hit, you know, understanding of

...

what lead in fat piece of music and the different characters and influences that

...

side into it and the different bands and different areas.

...

it seems that there's like this going on with the internet with memes, and there's this, like, kind of

...

culture of understanding how means evolved.

...

and almost having the same kind of

...

and

...

watching and having the knowledge, the cultural knowledge of i've seen something

...

all know what it's different phases. And once you've have seen,

...

recently, that I think looks quite interesting is

...

cultural token the idea that this sort of magic

...

the mexican ideas that

...

you know, the very in

...

it's very kind of like an in

...

knowledge, understanding these things. And

...

go

...

Do you main mean

...

something like like the board app your club,

...

Yeah. Without plastic.

...

crypto out crypto and such things.

...

I mean, I think they're kind of like, one

...

pots end of it. But I think there's all sorts of

...

ways of like, showing that you have

...

got some information knowledge day digital status basically

...

and that stages can be gained in a number of ways, but

...

it's ultimately

...

digital. It's based on whether it's your understanding of fanatic

...

evolution

...

and your... Hey how you express that three being part of a N club

...

somehow a

...

allows you to get a drop of an That means that you've got one of these, you know,

...

elite

...

you're elite elite eight.

...

all this to a degree, of course, is natural progression.

...

but let's let's just for a second, come back to

...

this

...

distinction that to be started with,

...

And specifically, that you talk talked about,

...

adrian, the idea of, you know,

...

art for the people and art for the, you know, the... The the the better people

...

that seems to to have been for a long time

...

another distinction between

...

art and commercial art back in my photography days.

...

watch out. I'm coming back into the game.

...

the the line between

...

art photography and commercial photography was sharply drawn

...

even even if it was for the most part, really rather hard to see

...

not least because

...

attempting to put hard definitions on these terms.

...

was a rocky pass

...

towards of pre.

...

at the same time, there's a legion of high profile

...

commercial photographers who have been

...

pumping out great artwork and vice versa, I

...

spent maybe three quarters of my time on

...

commissioned work, someone giving me the job of producing a photograph,

...

and a quarter on non commissioned work, which meant

...

I shot what I wanted as I wanted. No conflict.

...

but rather a case of one feeding the other

...

perhaps literally as well as

...

as as creatively. But

...

often that the the discipline of having to

...

deliver high quality goods to a deadline headline, actually,

...

worked.

...

worked as a stimulant even, not another a limit.

...

think that two can quite

...

happily coexist in one body. Why do we still

...

carry on with this artificial

...

you know, a sn

...

distinction.

...

Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna concentrate myself slightly here. But I think

...

Please do. We we do that all the time. I love it.

...

I

...

I love memorization expression, Obviously,

...

at the same time to send things that can't be

...

shortcut, you know? And

...

so much of the culture I live in is

...

one where, you know, there are

...

the ease of which things can be done and the ease of they're doing something

...

is is very monet.

...

as we're as opposed to, like, some fingers

...

difficult nuanced.

...

might not actually have any

...

great come potentially that's or or a great define outcome

...

is obviously less attractive. But that is really what our is a lot of the time. The last

...

i kind of pursued.

...

And then, you know... So

...

But the other side of it is, you know, I see what's going on around

...

where I live, and it is almost

...

the way that since the nineties commercial are and

...

the

...

and art have been blurred.

...

has now reached a kind of point where

...

you know, So

...

in the nineties, advertising was

...

became because of the money in advertising

...

something that, you know, if you're a film director, one be film director,

...

or a a musician wanna be phone composer

...

know there are huge budgets and and potential to do very creative

...

expressive things in those fields. Now you're still selling in stuff.

...

but

...

you know, that was how it was back then. And then over time,

...

And there was a lot of money as well. So people got paid well, for their

...

Christ is

...

and others now

...

it's not like that. And the way that the creator

...

of industry and the commercial she's of have been kind of just kind of

...

themselves around the crate ministries. So I walked around here they where I lived in Shore London and

...

this was originally this area was an doctor's area. This was a place where

...

you know, carpenters and furniture makers and

...

all sorts of

...

of of people who, you know, of working in class

...

businesses existed before

...

the eighties.

...

nineteen eighties. And now

...

only third forty years later in this narrative economy we had, like,

...

there's gucci she pop up stores.

...

in the same area and this corporate graffiti is assumption that I've

...

mind about a bit recently, But yeah... I saw Liberty, which is a

...

store with

...

you know, the queen has granted it her approval.

...

Then make lovely ties.

...

Yeah yeah. Exactly. But this come up courage

...

they're doing graffiti in shortage alongside Str and so

...

So so so they actually commissioned griffith the artists

...

to do branded

...

Yeah.

...

branded content.

...

Yeah. And in the same is some of the music that I'm involved with

...

you know, I've come up a new phrase which is near liberal ambient.

...

and the other people have have come up with this before, but it's this idea that we're living in really

...

tumultuous times. And

...

actually, there's a lot of music be made she's gonna kind of go like just go sleep

...

know, it's like this idea of just a nice glow around your life.

...

is just all you need, you know? And so

...

Yeah. I think

...

I I I... So as I said, I'm contradiction to myself. I think

...

you know, there should be no differentiation between

...

an and an artist because quite often the Has

...

as more

...

actually, these days, actual

...

technique and application in what they do. But

...

at the same time, there's another side of when I think commercial art and some of the things I just

...

talked about how these corporate and commercial interests

...

tight

...

and take

...

the kind of real artistic expression somehow i'm more fit into there

...

game again, was showing.

...

generally not happy about

...

This this is the

...

more or less the top of the hour, and this is the creative farm.

...

with me Talent and them

...

Hard and poor, and a whole bunch of other humans

...

I can say in the audience, which is always a beautiful thing to

...

to behold. Speaking of humans in the audience,

...

if you would like to

...

add to our little little discussion on the farm, please pick up a

...

rake or shovel and had for the

...

heard for the campfire. Will be

...

be sure to throw a microphone in, you know, general direction.

...

This thing

...

you know, this division between the off craft,

...

And and then and then this relationship to success is success

...

in large part a function of how long one sticks

...

to one's craft.

...

I personally think you've gotta be somebody who per their beers

...

to

...

to

...

Well, for most of us, anyhow to to actually build a

...

career out of

...

in an artistic endeavor. I've I've

...

I've been working on another masters right up

...

And because it was kind of exploring

...

an experiments around, you know,

...

I I'd been writing yesterday about

...

the problem, which which... I mean, the reality is is that

...

anybody who's doing anything artistic and unless

...

unless you are really really fortunate. You have

...

to hear an awful lot of rejection in your life.

...

and and so, yeah, you you you

...

you kind of gotta be stubborn and

...

you know,

...

I personally think they are they sort of this this

...

unfortunate and ridiculous image of

...

they are just as a sort of a willing flower, all Dna,

...

is a whole lot of bullshit. I think artists had incredibly

...

Oh,

...

Yep.

...

you know, a fixed thick skin just by virtue of

...

of dealing with with with so much so much rejection and so much nonsense and so much

...

Oh, and, of course, you know, you'll get so much exposure

...

by joining x writing for

...

why performing for, you know, festival z,

...

where they... the tickets cost two hundred and fifty bucks.

...

and everybody gets paid except put the bloody office.

...

I mean, that's just, you know, Bo as far as I'm concerned.

...

Mhmm.

...

Yeah. It's you're earlier you were talking about

...

to that need for, you know,

...

the artists increasingly, you know, instead of getting involved in the

...

the commercial side of their art

...

and I mean, it was another thing I was writing about yesterday as I was leading into to

...

to this whole project was

...

you almost have to.

...

you... Like... I mean, yes.

...

and you could have a producer that that or an agent

...

that, you know, kind of does that for you and and sells things for you.

...

But

...

you know,

...

in in my line of work, I discovered that

...

the producer

...

often,

...

takes an enormous piece of the pie, tries to work

...

the creator out of the pot And

...

and

...

and and, you know, has these sort of

...

like, control games they play with you that that can be quite some abusive in nature.

...

and

...

so I know for myself,

...

And then also, like, you know, inevitably believe, they need the creator there to sell the project.

...

plus if you're playing with anything that's new and emerging,

...

often, those producers don't understand it. So you you've gotta have

...

the creator, the artist there to be able to to

...

to to pitch the content and value it correctly.

...

And so I eventually, after thousand years and years of

...

of playing the game the way I'd been told it was supposed to be played

...

you know, I'm like,

...

you know, we decided it was about time we became our own producers.

...

And it's it's it's not my favorite job.

...

in in in what we do, but it's

...

it's it's almost become a a a necessary sort of evil in order

...

to to make a

...

meet ends to be able to create art. But that's

...

Yeah. Well, it goes it goes goes as much

...

for for quote unquote famous artists. Mean

...

Meg Is famous for being absolutely pedantic with

...

with the business side. Led Z I think, were

...

one of the very, very few artists who licensed that the that work

...

so they actually retained the rights

...

to the work as far as i'm

...

aware. And and even as far as

...

just the management of money side, pink floyd,

...

were short change by their money managers

...

So as a result, the guys took control of the commercial side of their work.

...

So, you know it's somehow somehow

...

it's a question of responsibility also, isn't it?

...

Oh, absolutely.

...

Well, yeah.

...

Sorry.

...

Yeah

...

I don't know.

...

Well I was I was about say, yeah. I I mean,

...

Eric was saying about people

...

well of these, you know, intermediary quite often producers or agents who

...

you realize actually, I a detriment really to work because actually,

...

they don't do what they you perceive. They job

...

to be. They have different agendas, and

...

you, so there is

...

again, back to the decentralized idea. You know, really, what we need to do is, I mean,

...

sorry. Tony agents and managers you are really... It's a lot really good.

...

people out there and, you know, I'm sure these people have different sites to the story, but

...

you know, generally,

...

that there's a lot of kind of

...

Mean, you mentioned pink floyd is interesting these kind of bands back then.

...

there was so much money knocking around that you could have a manager and

...

they might be great. They might be average, but there was still... You still have a fantastic lifestyle.

...

Now you really notice what a manager or an agent take

...

from your pocket because there's not enough

...

money for you to have that same

...

Yeah.

...

you know, there's not the same abundance of

...

money being circulated at least, and I think there is still the same amount of money really been

...

created.

...

Well, the difference between ten and ten and fifteen percent, say,

...

is actually sizable. Right?

...

Yeah. And then you just... I don't think just because of the internet, you just start to become more

...

aware. And thing is regardless to and

...

sick myself as you get older, you know more. I did a Law degree my thirties. So

...

the light bulb went on quite early on

...

or quite late rather in my fifties was like, you know, the boarding things contract

...

this is

...

That this is where the money's made. You know?

...

where all the detail and the stuff that's gonna make not

...

but you can't negotiate show a contract. You know, The the thing that I realized quite

...

after that is, you can only negotiate a contract when at

...

so you're already so powerful that you've got enough money, which is the thing about the pink

...

droid and that second, which is a position day we're in and that's still the case. I mean,

...

if I go to netflix you wanna say, I don't wanna take production. So right. You've not got the job.

...

you know, However, it hans Zoom,

...

God bless him, not get

...

has in the same position. I'm sure he can just... You know,

...

come up with every term for his contract. Fact, I know composers

...

establish composers and what they do. They work for week. They give a

...

you cues to music. I didn't say right. That's what you've got. You make them work pictures. So

...

you know, these very different experiences, but the thing is

...

like, a lot of the economy of of of the

...

and the world or the creative ministries industries

...

it's just a tiny fraction at the top that can pray like that.

...

i

...

and the majority of

...

Sorry. Kind.

...

You can you can actually negotiate, like,

...

So my very first television deal

...

I absolutely did. And my lawyer, like, I

...

I I must've have inherited something from my grandfather on reading contracts, very

...

carefully. And so my lawyer ex told me that I picked up on things

...

he hadn't even picked up on. But he said the way that we have to negotiate this

...

is you've gotta be prepared to walk away.

...

And so

...

And that that contract, I

...

things ended up in my favor.

...

that said,

...

there are other contracts I've walked away from and

...

you know built so the day I do whether sometimes if if

...

if, you know, because our our graphic bodies are small if there's a reason why keep

...

Well

...

getting turned out. Broadcast grass sydney

...

but well, that's those conversations the internal conversations

...

between

...

you know, meet myself, and and and I

...

No. I

...

they go on they're going all the time, But at the point is

...

that we actually

...

are able to have those conversations and should be

...

And so the next the next question, of course, is

...

how the artists in part themselves

...

to be in that position, and that is really the interesting

...

question and the the potential of

...

these things that we were talking about a minute ago, web three and monetization and what have you

...

Yeah. I think Generally, just having

...

an entity, whatever it is, and obviously, these days,

...

web three in the blockchain chain, and some of these new tools are gonna be up

...

clearly, you know, integral to

...

to to moving forward and how I'll just do this. But, you know, even just having your own

...

currently

...

and owning you own

...

own recording rights and maybe i mean own publishing rights? I mean, the thing is that actually,

...

you can do all those things, but

...

it's a lot of work to actually administer all of it and to do internationally because

...

in its National world.

...

international market, rather no. And

...

So

...

that's why do these organizations already have these networks these connections and you kind of

...

slot in with them, but they quite often do very poor jobs.

...

And so you got okay. So we need to learn how to do this. And

...

it involves. As just said, you know, becoming spending more time

...

on understanding the business infrastructure than the create events infrastructure. And

...

the very different parts of the brain, you know, and

...

I know that when I'm being creative, I can't do business

...

And when I'm doing business,

...

I find it very hard mentally to to to slip into

...

the the other place. So I mean, some people might be able to do that more

...

fluently, by I find it difficult. I spent the last eighteen months doing more of

...

the business side of stuff just because

...

of the the the projects I've been involved with, but

...

But yeah. I mean, I think

...

just being self as self sufficient as possible.

...

which involves

...

having economic

...

some economic powder having

...

legal knowledge having allies

...

having networks of people that you trust that you can work with. I mean, I think that's

...

really into, you know, very important moving forward i think you can do it on your own and the thing just

...

I know just know when you work with artists, you sort of

...

combine your networks your different skill sets.

...

you get up your Google docs together and you work as a team.

...

and that's very different from when I

...

first start making music where

...

you'd go into record label and they'd like god. It's be it's gonna give you meeting

...

and then you'd kind of disappear and never hear from them again. You know? And

...

almost like, the kind of bad smell I had to be dealt with before, you know,

...

they did the adult thing and make the money and make things happen.

...

whereas now, it feels very collaborative, which I find really

...

a really good thing. And

...

I'm sure we'll have we'll have more chats along with the lines of

...

what we did with lionel large and worst Paul were.

...

a little while back on on the future of the

...

of the music business, and we'll see, we'll see where that takes us.

...

in the well established tradition of all things fireside.

...

This is an interactive show.

...

or at least it's designed to be one depending on whether or not

...

a audience are in a mood to contribute.

...

and it seems that Leon know laura,

...

regular

...

drop in, Chat, or is it chatter? I i already don't know.

...

is is here leo, it's great to see.

...

pop up again. Welcome again to the farm.

...

Thank you. I'm trying to see if I want Chat or chuck

...

And if I can print that on a business card, I kind of like that.

...

So my question is

...

as I was listening to that and particularly to kind of

...

adrian

...

historical overview. I'm wondering

...

What's what's the contribution?

...

and who should therefore be paying?

...

and how

...

And I'm thinking

...

because this is obviously the creative farm, and I spent... Yeah I often

...

get up really early in the morning and listen to farming today on the

...

see radio four

...

And I wondering if there is an analogy in, you know, farmers could get

...

paid by

...

you know, I grow five to tomorrow, so I grow ten to models

...

And, obviously, I know these comparisons aren't always or, you know, that there is

...

there are kind of arrangements where it's almost like you get paid for being a

...

the steward of the landscape

...

has a

...

fancy term and up

...

Well, you get paid for not not farming, but just looking after

...

the the the the landscape. Is that what you? What you mean?

...

Cut

...

Well, yes. And it's a little bit more active than just

...

not doing anything. But no. I I was wondering if you what's, you know,

...

What

...

what what do we think the value is? And therefore, you know, who benefits

...

and who should be paying, which what?

...

might be lots of

...

Wow, this is... Yeah. This is this has been the the

...

the key question, of course, all through

...

through the time that, you know, published art and record music

...

have been

...

available for

...

people to buy

...

where, you know, which parts of the of the value

...

value chain actually

...

irr irresponsible, which are they

...

They the ones, they, you know, the set syndicate on

...

of the whole the whole equation and somehow,

...

somehow, you know, the the people are wearing the suits have been very, very good at

...

at persuading the artists that it's it's suits that that's replaceable.

...

What

...

and that the artists have been very, very good at buying into that.

...

which... You know, it's a basic psychological

...

principle and and we could talk about that too. but that's it's really interesting. You know?

...

This is changing. What do you think? Adrian Erica, who wants to pick this up?

...

Well, I

...

because the balance is shifting.

...

I know one of the... One of the things that I love about this whole digital space

...

the moment is that

...

it it it's kind of changing that that that question that you that you're asked

...

we are. Like, for example,

...

So in Canada,

...

traditionally.

...

when we look at traditionally how things have being done here, it's the government's

...

and the broadcasters and people like, but, ultimately, even with the broadcasters it goes back to it

...

Do you have do you have a license fee in Canada?

...

the government that's being paying for for the development of arts in the country.

...

Do we have a license fee as artists? No.

...

mm-mm

...

not no license fee as a as an owner of a television.

...

Oh,

...

Well we all contribute

...

you know, sort of but there's a... There's a rule in Canada that

...

all of the broadcast networks

...

have to contribute a certain amount of money to the development of

...

Canadian content.

...

makes... No That's that's that's one thing. I mean, and that's that's that's kind of pretty much being the norm in

...

in a number of places, but in the Uk and, you know, in Poland,

...

in many other countries, you know, the individual owners

...

of televisions, not television networks. I mean, the hardware, the the thing what sits

...

on the on the you know, the the the shelf in your house.

...

individual Tv owners have been

...

paying

...

license fees of, you know, have many pounds per month

...

that goes and

...

So

...

and it gets collected and then gets distributed to to the pro. They that

...

So I have to look at my my

...

production bodies yeah.

...

I'd have to look up my cable bill to see if if there's something marked on there, but a

...

don't

...

believe there is. I believe it just goes into that pot of money that

...

then those different broadcasters are supposed or

...

I... So... Okay.

...

so

...

i guess in in that regards, like,

...

certainly are

...

are telecommunications companies are supposed to be considered

...

getting to that Canadian content. So

...

And so if you've got a

...

a

...

you know, sort of

...

a cable

...

a cable package from your your your

...

telecommunications provider, then you're paying in

...

to that. And I have to see in my bill breakdown a part of that goes to Canadian content. My guesses is if

...

probably does. But

...

what that's meant in Canada is it has become a little bit

...

of an old voice network in terms of

...

typically, especially on the the broadcast side is

...

typically

...

the money goes to say big companies over and over again.

...

which

...

creates a little... And it's because, like,

...

you know, the broadcasters, like, have the relationships with different people and

...

and they tend to

...

it just tends to get cycle back to the same people all the time.

...

And so this is one of the things that I really like about what's happening in this digital space.

...

is it

...

it's changing that sticking that on its head and so that you've got a lot more

...

independent,

...

you know, content creators that are able to start

...

to build their art out there in different ways.

...

without having the same gate keepers that are set of blocking things, and then

...

Also, when you start talking about things like

...

it it hits other parts of of our

...

sort of creative sector as well, Like,

...

for example, the whole me movement. I mean, part of what

...

enabled that to happen is the fact that artists now have different ways

...

And specifically, like, female artists have different ways

...

of of of getting there

...

their content out there and getting your new for that content.

...

And so, like, as as it's as I

...

you're aware Raven and Who was with us last week. I've just

...

launched into a

...

and Experiment with one of our

...

our documentary series. And the thing I'm finding about that

...

right now

...

is it feels incredibly

...

powering because all of a sudden, rather than spending my time writing

...

rat proposals, which

...

you know, you start to feel totally exhaust

...

by and every single time you send them out, it's sort of like,

...

you know, do I win the lottery best time or or or or do I

...

do I lose the lottery this time? Whereas this is

...

you know, I haven't made anybody at yet. I really just started releasing the.

...

However,

...

I feel it's a win win right now, because even if I don't make any money

...

is still build the exposure to our projects.

...

it's giving a whole reason to talk about our projects.

...

The young fellow view or near who we

...

commissions for the artwork.

...

he has done a brilliant job that gives a whole series of new images that we

...

use some the projects on our parts guide side and on our

...

educational resource aside, and then

...

on top of that, it's created, you know, that that deadline that

...

that we talked about earlier about needing in order to

...

to function and like, in order to get things done,

...

for for my finally creating the the website around the series.

...

which I've meant. I really hear now.

...

And so so at the end of the day,

...

even if

...

we don't

...

you know,

...

earn from the, which i'm so really hoping that we do.

...

It's still a win win, and it has all these added layers that when I'm

...

talking with potential sponsors.

...

for future seasons of the series,

...

it it

...

give it's breathe the whole pile of new life.

...

back into the project and

...

You you can you can talk about stuff that that that that's hip and and

...

stuff that they don't necessarily understand, but

...

have heard about. And what ideally love to know

...

more of

...

we're coming to the end of of of our chat

...

as, unfortunately, we must. But there is a thing

...

I'd like to I'd like to pick up on and this is this

...

this kind of weird with

...

...the way we function as humans with money, but also as artists

...

the names of

...

people like El Echo and And

...

Go and pi.

...

they read large in the

...

the painting of of

...

of world art

...

and they all died wealthy.

...

as large numbers

...

of contemporary artists. Clearly monetary

...

success and commercialization are in an uneasy relationship, but

...

I think maybe

...

the the issue runs deeper.

...

This also goes for artists and positions and so, of course.

...

So it leads one to ask whether

...

maybe it's

...

simply about

...

Show. Shall we call it jealous?

...

when someone is branded as having sold out,

...

whatever that means.

...

only means that

...

that that someone is making more money than me.

...

is it

...

as simple as that.

...

What do you think?

...

there's not limited that

...

particularly in england i America is less.

...

disposed of those kind of about i think success more

...

applaud, but at the same time, you know, even in the short time that I've been

...

freshman, makes music being historically.

...

it's been since the mid nineties now.

...

it has changed, you know? And definitely

...

you've had to jump through more and smaller hoops to get

...

a smaller carrot at the end.

...

So

...

even though, you know,

...

you're right. The... As soon as someone manages to do those

...

wax, and some people managed to do it and still

...

retain what it is that made they work good.

...

before a lot of people in the process of doing that.

...

do lose a lot of what it was it.

...

you know?

...

could have been better about there art.

...

that's my view anyway.

...

Erica, Leo, what do you think?

...

Is it just jealous that that get... That

...

causes people to brand successful artists as having sold out

...

There is this interesting quote from Laundry and

...

it it goes

...

N is ambition that doesn't know itself.

...

And I think there is something to that.

...

I love it. The relationship of art and

...

money

...

has been an interesting one.

...

and it looks like that is not going to to change any anytime soon.

...

I I think my guess

...

as I do every week with much gratitude for the time attention

...

and energy, Erica, Hard drive piping in from

...

the general vicinity of Vancouver

...

Adrian Coca piping in

...

from the general vicinity of shortage

...

and Leo or her pi the blower from the Uk somewhere,

...

where are you tonight?

...

I am at the great british Seaside.

...

Oh, fabulous. Enjoy the wind.

...

Have a great evening, everyone. Thank you, and we'll catch you again.

...

same time same station next week.

...

Good goodnight.

...

Thank you.

...

Thanks, ray.

Fortune Cookie